Conference taveng::bagels

    Re .0:
    
    Any chance that he'll make a presentation up this way some time?
    I doubt if I'll be down in NYC that weekend much as I'd like to
    attend.
    
    Mark

    
    Would it be possible to obtain an audio tape?
    
    thanks,
    Irena
    

The meeting will take place on Sunday, Nov. 19th instead of Nov. 12th. Same
bat location.

Jem

    I would also like a copy of the tape if one is going to be made
    
    Regards,
    		Phil

As promised, a brief summary of some of the key points mentioned
by Rabbi Singer.

Rabbi Singer points out that more Jews have been converted to Christianity 
in the last 20 years than in last 20 centuries. The same point is made in
the Sept. 1986 issue of the Christian magazine *Charisma*. The magazine
also claims the following:

"Most authorities say there are over 100,000 Jewish converts to Christianity
in the United States."

Rabbi Singer feels the figure is closer to 50,000, and is inflated by the
missionary groups to increase funding.

Speaking of funding, he out the figure allocated by various evangelical
groups, including the Pentecostals, Mormons, Southern Baptists, etc. at
over $90 million per year *just for Jewish evangelism*! The money is funneled
to missionary organizations and Messianic "synagogues". 

Some more figures:

* There are currently 154 missions to Jews in the U.S.
* 145 Messianic "synagogues", compared to 16 only ten years ago.
* An average college campus has 13 missionary groups.
* "Jews for Jesus" has an annual budget of $7.6 million, of which
  $1.2m is spent on advertising. 

I quote the following from an article in the N.Y. Times of 5/21/89:

"Messianic synagogues are unrecognizable as churches - there are no crosses, 
no ministers, no Christian symbols of any kind. The service, which is conducted 
on Friday night, is conducted by a 'Messianic rabbi'... the idea is that Jews
can become Christians while still maintaining their Jewish heritage.

"...It's all based on deception. Some groups are trying to pass themselves
off as an expression of Judaism when, in fact, they are nothing more than
conduits to Christianity."

The ploy is so great, in many cities one can find the Messianic synagogues
listed in the Yellow Pages right after Orthodox, Conservative and Reform.
Their aim is to be perceived as simply another branch of Judaism.

In this connection, he told of one Jews for Jesus figure known as Tuvia
Zaretzsky (I believe). He was interviewed once on a TV show; the host
surprised him with this question: is that your real name? He tried to
avoid a direct answer, but finally had to admit that he was born *Lloyd
Clark*!  

The greatest threat, though, is not from the "Jewish Christians", but from
the 50-60 million Americans who classify themselves as born-again Christians.
A Jewish freshman will often find himself with a roommate of this ilk, who
displays a "great knowledge" of the Bible, and will often engage the victim
in Biblical discussion for which he is woefully ill-prepared. Rabbi Singer
made the point that he has *never*, nor have any of his associates, come
across a convert who had acquired a full Jewish education. Almost all were
graduates of after-hours or Sunday Hebrew school. Their parents could not
understand what happened: "I spent $14,000 on his Bar Mitzva, and this is
what I get!"

There is a great deal more (the threat is far from non-existent in Israel -
4 to 5 thousand converts *there*!), but I haven't the time to go over every-
thing. With the year 2000 approaching, the campaign is going to greatly
intensify.

As promised, he will return for a follow-up lecture entitled "Let's Get
Biblical", in which he actually goes through the Christian distortions
of the Jewish Bible, and the manipulation techniques frequently used. When
the date firms up, I will note it here.

Any further information can be gotten directly from:

Jews for Judaism
P.O.B. 1037
Teaneck, N.J. 07666
(201)833-8716

Rabbi Tovia Singer

I'm a little perplexed at the lack of response to this issue. Do we 
somehow think this threat will go away by itself? 

Of even greater concern is the lack of attention given to the missionary
problem by the Jewish "establishment". I know it's not a pleasant topic,
nor do we like to admit that we're actually the ones to blame for relegating
Jewish education to our 17th priority, but it exists, and it will not go 
away without a full-scale battle on our part.

Jews seem to have a natural desire to avoid confrontation with gentiles,
especially regarding religion; we certainly aren't out to convert anyone
who doesn't approach us first. But when soul-snatchers wage a spiritual
war against our children, we must awaken and rise to the occasion. There
*is no choice*!

Jem

    The problem is not Christian missionaries.  The problem is us.

    Some of it is a lack of education. (I too, think that it is given too
    low a priority by most Jews.)

    Most of it is that we frequently do not offer people what they are
    seeking, namely a sense of community.  In the Boston area, many of the
    "establishment" establishments are rapidly declining despite the fact
    that there are a large number of young unaffiliated Jews here that
    are potential members.

    The groups that are growing are minyanim/havurot and places like the
    Bostoner Rebbe's congregation.  My sense is that although these groups
    differ widely in ideology, they are all friendly, welcoming places that
    do not place hurdles in the way of people who show interest. 
    Regardless of level of knowledge, any Jew is welcome, and any Jew who
    wants to become part of the community is encouraged to do so.  Once
    people feel they have found a home, then they are motivated to learn
    about it.

    I don't know exactly what is happening in other places, but Shir
    Hadash, the Greater Boston Reconstructionist Havurah, grew by 50% last
    year, and a large fraction of those were previously unaffiliated.
    Also, our attitude is that if someone feels that our congregation is
    not what they want, we will encourage them to check out others--we
    would like to see all Jews affiliated with some part of the Jewish
    community.

    Counter-missionary work is fine, but I am not convinced that this
    is where we will get the greatest ROI (return on investment--one of
    the recent buzzwords in my group).

                                        Aaron

Re: .6

You're not going to get an argument from me about improving Jewish education
and sense of community. Someone recently made the latter point as follows:
Q: What phrase is repeated most often during Shabbat services? 
A: "Excuse me, that's my seat!"

Funny, but to a great extent, true. This type of complacency has no place,
especially in light of the tremendous warmth found in many of the born-again
denominations. We are the ones who gave the phrase "Love thy neighbor as 
thyself" to the world, but sadly, it's often not practiced enough. (On the
other hand, Jewish homes, especially during the family Shabbat meals, exude
powerful warmth. The reasons for this dichotomy are for a different note.)

That said, we still cannot write off those tens of thousands (we're only
discussing *Christian* cults now!) who have already left the fold, largely
due to our failings. This group (I don't think there are others involved
on a national level, but I could be wrong), deserves our support in every
way. (Rabbi Singer and the other staff [12 or so] are volunteers, pursuing 
"real" careers during the day. By contrast, Jews for Jesus *alone* has a full
time staff of over 100.) 

Another astounding figure Singer cited: each Jewish convert costs
the missionaries between $200,000 - $250,000!! By their own estimates, they
could have converted 300 gentiles!! But these groups believe fervently that
the "Second Coming" cannot come about without the conversion of masses of Jews.
Singer and the others can only reach a tiny fraction of those affected, due
to budgetary constraints. I urge everyone to find out more about this
exceptional organization.

Jem

    Jem, you're making the assumption that a large number of the converts
    were "drawn in" by these organizations rather than doing looking and
    subsequent joining on their own, which I believe is a false assumption
    in many cases.
    
    You seen to profess a rigidity in belief and the Law, which though may
    be fine to you, is not fine to many of those so called "lost Jews".
    Many have gone elsewhere because of this type of inflexability or
    because they could not find what THEY needed from religion, so no
    amount of "following the Laws" or "religious education" will have
    changed their minds or bring them back. They have felt (and I agree),
    that one does not have to follow the religion of their parents, purely
    because of the act of birth. They have found a way to worship G-d that
    makes them feel good and fullfills their needs, andf no one else has
    the right to say that is wrong.
    
    Eric
    

Re: .9

>    Jem, you're making the assumption that a large number of the converts
>    were "drawn in" by these organizations rather than doing looking and
>    subsequent joining on their own

$90 million per year spent for Jewish evangelism seems to make this a
fairly sound "assumption".

>								so no
>    amount of "following the Laws" or "religious education" will have
>    changed their minds or bring them back.

Allow me to quote .5 again:

>>								 Rabbi Singer
>>made the point that he has *never*, nor have any of his associates, come
>>across a convert who had acquired a full Jewish education. Almost all were
>>graduates of after-hours or Sunday Hebrew school. Their parents could not
>>understand what happened: "I spent $14,000 on his Bar Mitzva, and this is
>>what I get!"

The fact is, anyone who has ever studied the Jewish Bible in-depth is 
practically an impossible target for the missionaries. The converts
themselves, whom Singer deals with daily, *as well as the missionaries
themselves*, are no match whatsoever for a Jew reasonably educated in
his own religion. *He claims 100% success* in bringing these unfortunates
back to the fold, if they are willing to listen (how he gets them to listen
is a story unto itself.)

> 				 They have found a way to worship G-d that
>    makes them feel good and fullfills their needs, andf no one else has
>    the right to say that is wrong.

Eric, please answer one question. Do they deserve the opportunity of exploring
their own heritage first, or not?

Jem

    They have the right to explore it, but they also have the right to
    choose otherwise if that is what they desire.
    
    Not all converts have been approached by "evangelists" beforehand. Some
    did not find what they desired in Judaism, so they looked elsewhere.
    There is not one "correct or true" faith for everyone and only the
    individual can decide what's correct for him/herself. No one else has
    the right to make that decision. What is correct for you may not be
    correct for me, so each of us will make that decision on their own.
    
    As to your reference to the converts as "these unfortunate.....", I
    find that rather presumptuous of you. Perhaps you don't want to accept
    the idea that these individuals are now happy and satisfied in their
    beliefs, though they differ from yours! Though you appear to want to
    basically DEMAND that those born of Jewish parents practice Judaism
    throughout their own lives, regardless of their own desires, you have
    neither the right nor the business to make such demands!
    
    Eric
    Eric
    
    

    Jem, what  do  you  mean by "a full Jewish education"? You seem to
    distinguish  it  from  what  many  people  think  of  as a "Jewish
    education".

--David

Re: .11

>They have the right to explore it

I guess I didn't make the question clear enough.

>> 		Do they deserve the opportunity of exploring
>> their own heritage first, or not?

Referring to the fact that *none*, according to Singer had more than a
childish understanding of the tenets of Judaism. They were deprived of
this *opportunity* when they were denied a thorough Jewish education by
their parents. The question is not one of the legal right to practice
or not practice a given religion, as we've discussed before. The issue
is the *right* of a child to learn about his own religion, which is
either provided or denied by his parents. Does that make the question
a little more clear?

>As to your reference to the converts as "these unfortunate....."

The phrase "these unfortunates" was referring to the *fact* (according
to Singer), that none was *fortunate* enough to have been afforded a
proper Jewish education.

>						 Though you appear to want to
>    basically DEMAND that those born of Jewish parents practice Judaism
>    throughout their own lives,

Please show me where I have made such a demand. 

Eric, we have had this give and take before, with you claiming that someone
is out to repeal certain constitutional rights, and the answer has been crystal
clear that *noone* has such an agenda, nor would it be in anyone's interest.
Do you doubt this, or is there something else bothering you?

Jem

    No one is implying that one's 'constitutional" rights are being
    violated, only that some individuals can't fathom the idea that for
    some people born to Jewish parents, that Judaism may not be their
    "correct" faith, meaning the faith that they wish to believe in.
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you feel that the only
    "complete" Jewish education is the type one receives in a Yeshiva.
    I think that your expectations may work for someone from an Orthodox
    family, but it won't "fly" for the majority of Jews in the U.S.
    
    All the education in the world won't "create a belief" in a particular
    faith. It will educate the individual, but it can't make them believe a
    particular way, if they don't agree with it.
    
    Now for a few specific questions for you. Do you feel that an
    individual has the moral right (not legal here which has already been
    covered) to choose a different religion from the one he/she was born
    into? Will you accept that choice, if even after receiving a proper
    Jewish education, that individual still feels that Judaism is not right
    for them. And finally, do you give individuals the right to reason
    their religious beliefs out and interpet what is taught, or do you feel
    that the "Law" is above interpetation and must be blindly accepted?
    
    Eric 

Re: .12

>    Jem, what  do  you  mean by "a full Jewish education"? You seem to
>    distinguish  it  from  what  many  people  think  of  as a "Jewish
>    education".

David,

I realize that many parents sacrifice a great deal to provide a Hebrew
education for their children at the local Hebrew school, and I in no way
wish to take away from the wonderful intentions. But we live in a rapidly
changing world, in which our children are constantly challenging and being
challenged in their beliefs, especially when they reach their late teens
and leave home. The sad fact is, these supplementary schools simply *don't
cut it*. I have met teachers who literally had never heard the term *Beit
Hamikdash*, and who could not read a word of Rashi. The Judaism they convey
to the understandably resentful children is superficial at best, dangerous
and harmful at worst. Singer says, and I have encountered this very often,
that *none* of the youngsters he's met has had even a neutral outlook on
Judaism after graduating these schools - *all* were decidedly negative. And
no wonder! 

I refer to a full-day curriculum, part devoted to Jewish studies, the other
to secular. The teachers are knowledgable, and true Jewish role models. I
don't have any illusions that *all* 500 Jewish day schools around the country
are perfect, but the majority excel in both areas. But one thing is quite
clear: shlepping a kid to a Hebrew school after hours has not done the job,
and could hardly be expected to. It simply succeeds in turning the child
permanently off to Judaism, in many cases, as soon as s/he's finished with
her/his Bat/r Mitzva, notwithstanding the 2 hundred Hebrew words and smattering
of Bible stories they've acquired.

Jem

    Your view of after regular school hours Hebrew School sounds quite
    accurate (remembering my own youth), but a Hebrew Day school is not
    practical in many parts of the country (if it exists at all). My prob-
    lem with most parochial schools (both Jewish and non) is a feeling that
    they don't teach 'objective' thinking about religion. Not attending a
    Yeshiva, I may be offbase, but in conversations with people who have
    gives me the impression that questioning Rabbinical authority is
    discouraged, as is questioning the Law as to why it should be this way.
    
    I'm still waiting for your answer on my last few questions. You already
    know how I stand, I'd appreciate a clear picture on how you stand on
    those issues. Thanx.
    
    Eric

RE:    < Note 806.15 by GAON::jem "Eat, drink, and be... fat and drunk" >
                            -< The sad, sad facts >-

    
>>I refer to a full-day curriculum, part devoted to Jewish studies, the other
>>to secular. The teachers are knowledgable, and true Jewish role models. I
>>don't have any illusions that *all* 500 Jewish day schools around the country
>>are perfect, but the majority excel in both areas. But one thing is quite
>>clear: shlepping a kid to a Hebrew school after hours has not done the job,
>>and could hardly be expected to. It simply succeeds in turning the child
>>permanently off to Judaism, in many cases, as soon as s/he's finished with
>>her/his Bat/r Mitzva, notwithstanding the 2 hundred Hebrew words and smattering
>>of Bible stories they've acquired.
  
    There's a chicken/egg argument here -- for the issue may not be the
    kind of Jewish education children receive, but rather the role of
    Judaism in the lives of children's parents.  In my experience, children
    who go to all day Jewish schools are from homes in which parents
    are traditionally observant and are actively involved in Jewish
    life.  On the other hand, children who only receive a part-time
    Jewish education -- an I was such a child -- are likely to come
    from homes where Judaism plays a less central, less overt role.
    
    All of which is to say that the "problem" may not be with the type
    of schooling but with the home life.
    
    
    Gene
    

Re: .14

>						 Do you feel that an
>    individual has the moral right (not legal here which has already been
>    covered) to choose a different religion from the one he/she was born
>    into?  Will you accept that choice, if even after receiving a proper
>    Jewish education, that individual still feels that Judaism is not right
>    for them.

I fail to see how my opinion has any bearing whatsoever on an individual's
decision to believe in or practice the Jewish religion. My approval or
disapproval seems quite irrelevant to the question at hand. Nevertheless,
our sages were by no means oblivious to this question:

Maimonides, in his "Guide to the Perplexed", states emphatically that *were
he convinced*, intellectually, that Aristotle's theory of the "eternity of the
universe" (in contradistinction to creation by G-d), was correct, he would
be morally bound to accept that theory, although it is clearly contrary
to the Bible's account. This statement was not made flippantly by any means,
the *prerequisite* to any such decision being a thorough grounding in Jewish
sources. 

So the answer to your question is no, an individual does not have the moral
right, he has a moral **obligation** to be intellectually honest. By the
same token, he has an equal responsibilty to be consummately knowledgable
about his religion before making such a decision.

I believe this answers the second question also, although according to the
sources I've cited, the point might be moot given a solid knowledge
of Judaism.

>		 And finally, do you give individuals the right to reason
>    their religious beliefs out and interpet what is taught, or do you feel
>    that the "Law" is above interpetation and must be blindly accepted?

See 799.35 for an elucidation of this important issue you raise.

Re: .16

>					but a Hebrew Day school is not
>    practical in many parts of the country

For those who consider the future of Judaism a priority, this is a major
factor to be considered when relocating. However, many mid to large size
towns do have such schools today, thank G-d.

>								 My prob-
>    lem with most parochial schools (both Jewish and non) is a feeling that
>    they don't teach 'objective' thinking about religion.

Do you propose comparative religion courses for seven-year-olds? Whether or
not I am Jewishly educated, or believe at all, there is no good reason I can
think of to punish my children by not offering them the option to choose how
to believe - but the choice must be an informed one, first grounding them in
the heritage of their forefathers.

Re: .17
  
>    All of which is to say that the "problem" may not be with the type
>    of schooling but with the home life.

See 742.93. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of day-school children
do not come from strictly observant homes. 

I'm still surprised at the lack of concern over the overwhelming missionary
drive outlined previously. Can someone explain why?

Jem

    RE: .18, perhaps I give people more credit than you do, in their
    ability to make a choice for themselves. If they are of strong belief,
    the missionary work will not effect them. If the individual is not of
    strong belief or perhaps finds something he's looking for, then the
    missionary's may succeed. That is not to say to coersion may not occur
    a la "cults", only that the missionaries may have the answers for some
    individuals who can't find happiness in their religion. My view of what
    is important is for the individual to be satisfied with his life as the 
    formost issue here. If he can't find it in Judaism, then I'd rather see 
    him find it elsewhere rather than be unfullfilled in life. You can talk 
    of education till the cows come home, but some individuals will never find 
    in in the religion of their parents, and for them, perhaps another faith 
    is the key.
    
    Eric 

Eric,

I think the point that Jem and others who talk about education are trying
to make is that there is more to find in Judaism than many Jews know.  The
reason they don't know is that the quantity and quality of their experience
with Judaism has been lacking.  Many of us also believe that with a sufficient
exposure to the variety and beauty of Judaism fewer Jews would look elsewhere
for fullfillment.  The problems in Jewish education are both a reflection of
the absolute limits of a part-time jewish education and the lack of enthusiasm
displayed by the parents of children in the educational system.

The question is what will be gained by improving the quality of Jewish
education?  I would like to suggest that if we improve the quality of the
programs available today (without drastically changing the underlying
structure, we will make very little impact.  Changes need to be made that
will not only broaden and deepen the education of our children but encourage
the return of their parents to a more active participation in Judaism.  As
long as their parents don't really care about Judaism we can't expect kids
to learn to care about it.

And Eric, yes I do believe that it is imporant that Jews practice Judaism
(of whichever flavor most appeals to their needs).  For if they don't then
there won't be any more Jews.  And that matters to me!

Happy Thanksgiving,
Gavriel

    RE: 806.18

>                         the overwhelming majority of day-school children
>do not come from strictly observant homes.

    True, but the impact of the day school depends, in part, on the extent
    to which parents are supportive of the things taught in the school.
    I have seen cases where day school attendence has had a very positive
    impact, because the parents, although not well educated themselves,
    believed in what the school was teaching.  I have also seen students
    emerge from such an education with very cynical and negative feelings
    because the message they got at home was very different from what they
    got at school.  I have also seen very successful products of
    after-school programs (as well as the disaster cases you refer to).

    I think that the key is the message children get from their parents,
    and the reason that day schools are more likely to be successful is
    that the parents of day school children are more likely to be Jewishly
    committed.  This is true whether the day school is Orthodox,
    Conservative, or Reform.

>I'm still surprised at the lack of concern over the overwhelming missionary
>drive outlined previously. Can someone explain why?

    I can only speak for myself.  As I said earlier, I do not oppose this
    effort, but I see a much larger payoff in  concentrating on building a
    sense of community.  I do not think that it is lack of knowledge of the
    Bible that is the problem, but spiritual emptiness.  What attracts the
    converts to whom you refer is the feeling of community that the
    missionary groups create for them.  Without minimizing the importance
    of education, I would offer the following admonition (with apologies to
    Hillel), "Find for yourself a family, the rest is commentary..."

                                        Aaron

Jem

    >and it will not go  away without a full-scale battle on our part.
    
    Doesn't sound to me like if you were referring to educational issues,
    only.

    >Jews seem to have a natural desire to avoid confrontation with
    >gentiles, especially regarding religion; we certainly aren't out to
    >convert anyone who doesn't approach us first. But when soul-snatchers
    >wage a spiritual war against our children, we must awaken and rise to
    >the occasion. There *is no choice*!
    
    'scuse me? On one side, you claim to discuss education, only, and then
    you call for war-like action because "Jews have a natural desire to
    avoid confrontation with gentiles" (which, by the way, is one of the
    worst and most inaccurate stereotypes re. Jews that I know of). Ok,
    you're angry about the sectarian (rather than Christian) "soul
    snatchers". That might explain your being inconsistent: full-fledged
    war doesn't equate to more religious education, in my dictionary.
    
    Puzzledly yours,
    
    Chris

I am one of those who quit after bar mitzvah and I find I really know next to
nothing about my own religion. Just reading Bagels has been a significant
portion of my Jewish education.

All the reasons I ever heard of for leaving Judaism have been empty. How can
a person say s/he no longer wants to practice Judaism when s/he has never
practiced it in the first place? In fact, the only valid reason I can think of
for converting is that a person is seeking an "observant" community and cannot
find a Jewish one.

As a young adult, I used to regard Jewish practices as mysterious and probably
irrelevant. It was an eye-opener for me the first time I actually ate a meal in
my own sukkah. I am now a middle-aged adult and I now beleive that Jewish
practices are not meant to be "understood"; instead, the satisfaction, the
understanding, and the religious experience follows from the action. Jews who
have never experienced the traditional observances don't really understand them
and don't know what they are missing. None of it makes sense until you -try- it.

Dave

    RE: .23, but there are those who have "tried it" and still finds that it
    does not fullfill their needs or that their personal ideas and beliefs
    differ too significantly to be able to come to terms. Compromise is
    sometimes called for, but some replies in this note refuse to even look
    at that possibility.
    
    Let me pose this question. Is it better to compromise than to loose the
    individual all together and forever? You can't "dictate" religious
    practices to individuals anymore and expect them to blindly accept
    them, without question. The world changes and so do people, and if
    certain practices can not be rationalized, people will not follow them
    just because its "the Law" or told to by "Rabbinic Authority". Some may
    call this approach "watered down Judaism", but I prefer to call it
    fitting the needs of many people who will "never" accept the Orthodox
    approach.
    
    Eric

Eric,

I, for one, agree with the basic premiss in .24.  That is that providing a
means for the non-observant to be only less-observant is important.  It is
important for the Jewish people to keep those within the fold.

If there are Jews out there who have really "tried it" and still want to
walk away from Judaism, far be it from me to try to stop them.  I will
still reserve the right to disagree with them.  That's what pluralism is
all about.

I don't think that adults in this category represent the place where we
should address our efforts.  Except for a very small number these will be
permanent "lost causes".  Instead, what I and others have been advocating
is trying to change the system and change the attitudes of parents at the
fringes of (but still within) the Jewish people so that their children
will be more likely to find something of worth in Judaism.

As to the issue of compromise, there are 2 ways you can describe compromise.
One is to try to get all sides to give in a little on what the definition
of "correct" is.  The other is for all sides to stay where they are on that
but to allow other sides to make their own decisions.  The latter approach
is the only one that can work when developing compromise with orthodox
practice without giving in completely to the orthodoxy.

Does that mean that the Orthodox and Conservative movements must admit that
the Reform is right?  No, only that the Reform is there and that they aren't
going away.  Does that mean that the more observant groups should accept the
religious rulings of the less observant?  No, only that they will not make
too much fuss about those that do (especially where the difference do not
intrude on others).  Does that mean that the more observant move should
accept converts whose conversions have not met their standards?  Not for
things like marriage, minyanim, etc. but certainly for things like membership
in non-religious community activities.  In the end each group would like
to see all Jews join their point of view (simply because each group thinks
it has THE answer, though some won't openly admit it 8^{) but that does not
mean that hostiliy need develop over the differences in the mean time.

In the end the Jewish establishment must come up with an approach which
balances a necessary system of standards with making Judaism accessable and
attractive to Jews who were otherwise not particularly attracted.  That is
what (I hope) we would all like to arrive at.

Gavriel

re: .21

"Find for yourself a family, the rest is commentary..."

                                        Aaron

I love it... This is certainly what worked for me.  I come from a very
UNobservant family, went to "after hours" school (no Hebrew) through 
Confirmation in a Reform environment.  When I became part of the community
I'm involved in now, I felt that I "came home" and my Jewishness is very
central to my life now.

Waky

    RE: .25, I agree with most of your points, but who is to say that the
    Orthodox (or Conservative or Reform) are "right" in their interpeta-
    tion. Many of the problems about who is a "valid Jew" comes from just
    these interpetations in such issues as marriage and minyanim. I for one
    do not accept that the Orthodox hold the only VALID interpetation of
    who is a Jew, nor do I feel that they have the right to make that in-
    terpetation for non-Orthodox Jews who have converted by non-Orthodox
    means. One who chooses Judaism is a Jew, regardless if it was performed
    by an Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform Rabbi! The Orthodox (and often
    the Conservative) demand that it must be done "their way" to be valid,
    which I can not agree with (valid being the key word here).
    
    Eric

.27

Eric,

Again we agree (oy this is awful).  One point I will make is that the
orthodox community has the right to decide who is an orthodox Jew.  (By
this I mean a Jew by orthodox standards).  The same goes for the other
movements.  Where this can lead to problems is when someone want to
increase their level of observance.  Fortunately, I think most Jews who
are sincerely interested in increasing their level observance to the
point where it would make a difference would be prepared for the
nuicance involved in straightening out their status.  The worst shock
of such a situation would be greatly reduced if the religious movement
in which a person starts (and possibly the person's parents) made it
clear, from the beginning, that the status was disputable.

Gavriel

    RTE: .28, its this whole status issue that rubs me wrong. To me, a Jew
    is a Jew is a Jew ................True there are different levels of
    observence, but the base is the same across the board, or at least it
    should be. Unfortunately, the more Orthodox don't see it this way,
    especially in the area of marriage. It seems that, to them, unless your
    conversion is done by THEIR standards, you're NOT a Jew, though you'd
    be accepted by most of mainstream Judaism. This is but one issue that
    Orthodox ritual bothers me (such issues as woman not being allowed to
    be called up to the Torah or counted into a Minyan or be ordained as a
    Rabbi are others).
    
    The Orthodox may worship and practice as they see fit, but they can not
    hold Judaism back as the world around them advances.
    
    Eric
    

.29

But in order to "practice as they see fit" it is necessary that we acknowledge
their right to dictate what is acceptable under their auspices.  Does it mean
that the rest of us must follow orthodox practice?  NO.  Only that we remain
aware that we are practicing something different and that when someone wants
to cross the line into orthodox practice they should know what the pitfalls
are (or may be).  Does this mean that the other movements should allow
Orthodoxy to dictate how to perform weddings, divorces, conversions, brit
milahs, etc?  NO.  Though some level of compromise in these areas would calm
things down quite a bit.

If you or your descendants never want to follow orthodoxy or marry into an
orthodox familty then there isn't a problem.  Do as you please. Far be it from
any of us to tell you (or anybody else) how to live.  If on the other hand
just in case you or one of your descendants decides to become orthodox, it
would be wise to at least know of and inform about any family history that
might be a problem.  (The word "you" is not intended to imply that Eric or
any other specific individual that I know of is in this situation  8^{).

This has, as usual, strayed from the original discussion.  So let's get
back on track.  What ways can we encourage Jews at the fringes to move back
in among us (or at least encourage their children)?  I really don't think
it matters whether they end up Orthodox, Conservative, Reform,
Reconstructionist or what ever.  What is important is that they be given
the opportunity to find something of value in Judaism.

Gavriel
"Either Judaism has something to say to the world or it has nothing to say
to Jews."                                                  - Dennis Prager

    RE: .30, Out of this whole discussion, your last paragraph takes the
    most logical and reasonable approach to this whole situation, and sums
    up my feelings as well as many others. Very good.
    
    Eric

    Off the topic and betraying my ignorance, but:
    
    Gavriel, who is Dennis Prager? I am most impressed by this individual.
    I suspect quite a few are equally upset by his statements.
    
    Alex

Dennis Prager is the author (with Joseph Telushkin) of _Ten_Questions_People_
_Ask_About_Judaism_ and _Why_The_Jews_?_The Reason_For_Antisemitism_.  In
addition he publishes a newsletter, _Ultimate_Issues_, which covers a wide
range of issues on Judaism.

He is, as far as I can tell, a practicing Conservative Jew.  However, he
has been invited to speak or his books used for classes offered by groups
ranging from Reform temples to Chabad.  A copy of his article "Beyond Reform,
Conservative and Orthodox: Aspiring To Be A Serious Jew" has been floating
around soc.culture.jewish for some time now.  There may also be a copy
somewhere in this conference (I think posted by Don Feinberg).

The quote that I have added to my signature comes from his article "Why I Am
a Jew" which takes up a double issue (Vol. 2 Numbers 2 and 3) of
_Ultimate_Issues_.

Gavriel
"Either Judaism has something to say to the world or it has nothing to say
to Jews."                                                  - Dennis Prager

Been away for a couple of days, and I don't have time now to reply to
all the recent entries, although it seems we're starting to head
in the right direction.

I found a quote from the 3 year _Study on Intermarriage_ published by
the American Jewish Committee in 1979, which pretty much sums up what
we're all saying:

"There is a crying need to strengthen Jewish experience and identity
among American Jews, from early childhood on...In the long run, this
is the _only_ way to assure Jewish continuity and to provide for a 
meaningful Jewish future."

Jem

BTW - If anyone happens to have a copy of this document, I'd appreciate
a copy. I saw it quoted (along with many other heart-rending stats) in
"Endangered Species - An examination of the decline of American Jewry."
Additional copies of the booklet are available from Priority 1, telephone
1-800-33-FOREVER or 1-800-255-9844.

Here's some more on Dennis Prager.

He is an _extremely_ dynamic and forceful speaker.  I was privileged to hear
a series of three of his lectures, which were thoughtful and provocative.
The centerpiece of his philosophy is the inseparability of morality from
belief in God and Jewish ritual practice.

If you can catch one of his talks, by all means do so.  

He is also very opinionated and politically right-wing.  I picked up a sample
copy of his _Ultimate Issues_ newsletter and decided not to subscribe after
reading one of his tirades against liberalism for its alleged near-monolithic
opposition to Israel.

Rabbi Singer returned yesterday for his "Let's Get Biblical" lecture.
Some of the attendees were less than enthusiastic about attending the 
lecture, having read several books on the topic, but Singer provided 
interesting new insights. 

He made the point that 3 major motifs appear in missionary "quotations" from the
Jewish Bible:

1) Quoting out of context;	 	often even a cursory perusal of the 
   surrounding verses uncover the deception.
2) Mistranslation;         	 	i.e. of the "alma/virgin" variety. 

3) "Inventing" Hebrew Bible verses;     Some of the apostles sought to justify
   their beliefs with passages allegedly quoted from Tanach; but these are
   nowhere to be found.

I'm not going to post the verses here, but those who are interested can send
me email.

Important note: my intention is not to begin a Christian-Jewish debate.
The sole purpose is for Jewish people to be able to recognize some of the
deceptive techniques utilized by many missionaries, and to relate this 
information to relatives and friends who might be especially prone to these
manipulative techniques (especially college students!).

    re. jem's last para ("important note"):
    
    Believe it or not, I FULLY agree with you. Not being one of them,
    myself, I have however learned by "true" Christians (If I'm allowed to
    refer to some monks and priests in such terms) who I know personally,
    that they would never actively attempt to convince non-Catholics to
    convert. They are prepared to discuss their religion with anybody who
    asks for it, but would view conversion campaigns, such as described
    previously as quite contradictory with the Bible's teachings, and as
    fanaticism.
    
    Approvingly yours,
    
    Chris
    
    

    Re .37:
    
    Unfortunately, there are some very zealous fundamentalist Protestant
    Christians who would take issue with that view. They're absolutely
    convinced that their life's work is to "save" people (from what
    I'm not sure).
    
    There are a bunch of them in my department and periodically they
    skirt the Valuing Differences guidelines. Once you remind them of
    those guidelines however they generally back off.
    
    Mark

    As much as Jews have rather strict definitions on who's a Jew, as much
    the Roman Catholic Church does have distinctions between Christian
    Churches and Sects (no, I won't call names, but most of the "Christian
    Churches" in the US would fall under this category).
    
    Updatingly yours,
    
    Chris