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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

797.0. "Should Columbus Day be a "Jewish Holiday"?" by CARTUN::FRYDMAN (wherever you go...you're there) Wed Oct 11 1989 10:27

    Well, it's "erev" Columbus Day (the real one).  There was an article in
    last weekend's Jewish Advocate that discussed various "proofs" that
    Columbus was really a Spanish Morrano or and Italian of Spanish Marrano
    lineage.  Either way, he was a Jew.  I no longer have the article. 
    Does anyone out there have anything to add to this.  BTW Many groups
    are already planning their 1992 Five_hundreth_anniversary_since_the
    "discovery"_of_america events.  Are any Jewish groups planning any
    commemorations of the anniversary of the expulsion of the Jews from
    Spain---including Christopher"ele"?
    
    ---Av
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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797.1Paul Harvey....Good Day!ABE::STARINAyuh.....seen bettuhWed Oct 11 1989 10:5012
    Re .0:
    
    I don't have the article but I remember a Paul Harvey "And Now You
    Know The Rest Of The Story" piece that mentioned Columbus's Jewish
    roots.
    
    Also, as was mentioned in an earlier BAGELS note, there are some
    Spanish-Americans in the Southwest United States who claim descendancy
    from Marranos who fled Spain in 1492 or thereabouts (there was a
    NPR piece on them a couple of years ago).
    
    Mark
797.2Celebrate--or mourn?CASP::SEIDMANAaron SeidmanWed Oct 11 1989 13:4524
    Some time ago I remember trying to find out about Columbus'/Columbo
    /Colon's background and came to the conclusion that he may or may not
    have been Jewish/Catholic/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese/French. 
    Unfortunately, there does not seem to be very much solid biographical 
    data on him.  Some of the documents, on close examination, seem to be
    more wishful thinking than fact, and depending on which ones are
    selected, you can make a case for any of these categories.

    About the only thing that seems reasonably certain is that his
    departure on the voyage of exploration coincided with the departure of
    large numbers of Jews who were being expelled from Spain.  Until that
    point it was not illegal to be a Jew in Spain, so it was not necessary
    for Jews to pretend to convert unless they did it in preparation for
    staying in Spain.  Those who could not get out after that date did face
    the choice of conversion or death.

    After the expulsion of 1492, the Inquisition set about to verify that
    the new conversos were sincere.  Those who were found to be practicing
    Judaism in secret (and for this reason were dubbed marranos (swine) by
    the inquisitors) were subject to torture, confiscation of property, and
    execution.

    Then, having practiced on the Jews, Spain went to work on the native
    Americans...
797.3Some comments on .2TAVIS::JUANThu Oct 12 1989 06:4276
     Re: .2

     I would like to comment on some technicalities concerning the
     expulsion of the Jews from Spain, the Inquisition and the
     Spanish treatment of Native Americans.

     1. Before 1492 it was "legal" for a Jew to stay in Spain. Some
        of them were in very important positions within the court
        of Fernando and Isabella "the Catholic kings", such as the
        Santangel family and many others. During the 14th and 15th 
        century there were many persecutions of Jews that included the
        forced conversions of Jews (Toledo and other cities).

        Technically the church rejected forced conversions, however
        it was almost imposible for those forced to convert to return
        openly to their Jewish faith. BTW, there were also forced
        conversions of other "infidels", i.e.: moslems.

        Only those that were brought by force, at the point of the spear,
        to be baptized, could claim they were forced. If there was a mob 
        in the quarter and some family could only find refuge in the
        church and be baptized, this was not considered "forced conversion".

>    Until that
>    point it was not illegal to be a Jew in Spain, so it was not necessary
>    for Jews to pretend to convert unless they did it in preparation for
>    staying in Spain.  

        There were some cases where in order to progress in the social
        position, some families converted out of their "free will" and
        free convenience. The Santangel family was one of those that
        converted and were so proud of their position and tradition
        they did not follow the custom and change their family names
        but they kept the Santangel family name after their conversion.

        The Santangel family contributed quite a few of the martirs of
        the Inquisition.

>    After the expulsion of 1492, the Inquisition set about to verify that
>    the new conversos were sincere.  Those who were found to be practicing
>    Judaism in secret (and for this reason were dubbed marranos (swine) by
>    the inquisitors) were subject to torture, confiscation of property, and
>    execution.

         About the word marranos I found two etymologies (sp?): one is
         swine, just a derogative word or perhaps related to the fact the
         converted Jews despised pork (one of the signs by which the
         Inquisition checked their faithfulness to the mosaic creed) or
         a more complicated one, of jewish origin, being the origin of the
         word marrano - "mar anus" i.e.: 'Mr. Forced One'.


>    Then, having practiced on the Jews, Spain went to work on the native
>    Americans...

         Even I don't have anything to protect the Spanish relation to
         the Indians or Native Americans, it should be said that Spain
         enslaved the Indians in the most bitter ways and put them in
         a second citizenship (kind of), intermixed with them creating 
         the mestizos in different classes and categories, but did not 
         try to exterminate them, at least intently.

         With Jews it was absolutely different: It was forbidden to be Jewish
         under Spanish rule. Being Jewish was equivalent to a death sentence.
         Being an "unfaithful converse" was also equivalent to death. If you
         "repented" there might have been a change in the way the death 
         sentence was executed (strangling instead of burning - how merciful!).

         Is more evil to exterminate a people on intent or enslave another?
         Please, free me of deciding on that. However I feel the evil Spanish
         treatment of the Indians was, according to 16th century standards,
         more "human" than that of the Jews.

Regards,

Juan-Carlos Kiel
797.4Careless phrasingCASP::SEIDMANAaron SeidmanThu Oct 12 1989 19:1611
    RE: -.1

    Whoops!  I guess I should be more careful about my wording.  I wasn't
    trying to make a rigorous comparison of the treatment of Jews and
    native Americans.  That was a gratuitous editorial comment, implying
    that one might expect that people who demonstrated extreme cruelty in
    one context would also do it in another context.

    Thanks for the clarifications.

                                                Aaron