Conference taveng::bagels

Deb,

You are right that if the first-born child is a boy he must be redeemed from
Temple service.  This is in commemoration of the slaying of the first born
among the Egyptians (Exodus 13:11-16) and the sparing of the first born
among the Jews.  The redemption is done by paying a Kohane a small amount of
money and reciting certain formulas.  Levites and (including Kohanes) are
excluded since they are, as a tribe, dedicated for Temple service.

Most likely the "big party" that your cousin had was for the Brit Millah
(circumcision) on the 8th day not for pidyon ha-ben.

Gavriel

    So, Levites and Kohanes _can't_ be redeemed from Temple service ?  They
    have to remain dedicated to service?
    
    Re: my cousin...  Although this was about 15 years ago, I specifically 
    remember a small gathering at their house for the bris, and a large party
    at the temple for the pidyon ha-ben.  I guess they like to have parties :-)
    
    Thanks.
    

    The boy must be born of a normal birth.  A child of a C-section
    does not require a Pidyon Ha-Ben.  Also if the mother had a prior
    miscarriage if the fetus had lived a certain numbers of months 
    the boy is not considered the first born.  
    
    WS

     Re: .3

>    The boy must be born of a normal birth.  A child of a C-section
>    does not require a Pidyon Ha-Ben.  

     Could you please be more specific? Could you quote some precedent?

     Thanks,

     Juan-Carlos Kiel

     Re: .4

The specific Biblical injunction to redeem the first born specifies
"the first born of the womb" (kol peter rechem).  Since a C-section
does not bring the baby out through the womb (I don't know if this
is technically medically correct, but it really doesn't matter), those
babies are not required to be redeemed.  In addition, if there was
a previous miscarriage or abortion, subsequent babies don't have
a pidyon haben.

By the way, C-sections were not unknown in Talmudic times and the
Hebrew expression "yotze dofen" (meaning exceptional, but literally,
"coming out through the side") comes from this.  Also by the way,
the term Ceasarian has nothing to do with Ceaser, but that's really
a topic for another conference.

Given all the requirements (male child, neither parent is of Cohen 
or Levi descent, no C-section, no previous abortions) a pidyon haben
is really a relatively rare occurance.

     Re: .5
>                                                   Also by the way,
> the term Ceasarian has nothing to do with Ceaser, but that's really
> a topic for another conference.

Are you sure on this, Sid? I always thought that Julius got his surname
from the way he was born.  (caedo, caedere, caesi, caesum is Latin for
to cut, as I remember from my high-school Latin of 30 years ago).

> Given all the requirements (male child, neither parent is of Cohen 
> or Levi descent, no C-section, no previous abortions) a pidyon haben
> is really a relatively rare occurance.

Is it all that rare? Both I and my eldest son had one.
It really is a very nice ceremony without all the hassle of a brit.

BTW - we are learning about this very topic of pidyon haben these very days
in Daf Yomi of Bchorot ch. 8.  (Daf Yomi, literally daily page, is the 
same page of Gemara which is learnt daily by people the world over).

Jonathan Wreschner

>                                                   Also by the way,
> the term Ceasarian has nothing to do with Ceaser, but that's really
> a topic for another conference.

>>Are you sure on this, Sid? I always thought that Julius got his surname
>>from the way he was born.  (caedo, caedere, caesi, caesum is Latin for
>>to cut, as I remember from my high-school Latin of 30 years ago).

Glad you asked.  Though the idea of Caeserian section has been known for
millenia, it's only very recently that it was possible for the mother
to survive the operation.  In ancient times, the mother *always*
died in the process.  Now there are several references to Julius's
mother being alive when he was an adult and ruled Rome, so he couldn't
have given his name to the operation.  I suspect the etymology is
more closely related to the Latin for cut (as you wrote).

By the way, Caeser became synonymous for ruler.  Isn't it interesting
that the Hebrew word for crown is "keter"?

Re .7:

> By the way, Caeser became synonymous for ruler.  Isn't it interesting
> that the Hebrew word for crown is "keter"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's no connection here.

"keter" begins with the Hebrew letter KAF, while the Hebrew cognate
for "caesar" begins with QOF and uses the letter SAMEKH for the "s" sound.

/ David /

    >> Given all the requirements (male child, neither parent is of Cohen 
    >> or Levi descent, no C-section, no previous abortions) a pidyon haben
    >> is really a relatively rare occurance.

    Re: .5
    I'm not so sure about that.  My father, my son and I all had one.

    As for my father and myself, I don't remember so well, but the
    Pidyon Ha-ben for my son was really nice.  A friend of mine who
    is a Cohen recited his part, we all had a laugh about whether I
    should really buy the kid back, under pressure from my wife I paid,
    and we celebrated.

    Onw thing for sure - the child seems to enjoy the Pidyon more than
    the Brit.
        
    Steve Engel