Conference taveng::bagels

    Mark,

    I don't know of any source in the Manchester area, but both are
    available at both the Israel Book Shop and Kolbo in Brookline (MA). 
    That edition of the Torah was $35 the last time I looked; I don't have
    a price for Gates.

    The commentary (most of it is by Gunther Plaut) is quite good.

    [Oh, one minor note.  It comes in two editions.  One opens left to
    right as do other English-language books, the other right to left as
    Hebrew books do.  The Hebrew text is slightly different; the "English"
    version lacks the T'amim Korim that tell one how to chant the text in
    the synagogue.  No point in worrying about that until you can read
    Hebrew :^) ]

    The IBS accepts VISA and MC and they supply a lot of people and
    congregations; it should not be difficult to arrange mail or UPS
    delivery if you can't find a local source.  Kolbo also accepts plastic
    and as far as I know, they also do mail orders.

    Israel Book Shop, Inc.
    410 Harvard Street
    Brookline, MA  02146        (617) 566-7113 or -8255

    Kolbo
    435 Harvard Street
    Brookline, MA  02146        (617) 731-8743

    Aaron

    Re .1:
    
    Thanks, Aaron.....much obliged. I'll give them a call.
    
    I agree - I was impressed with Plaut's style from the time I opened
    the book. Not to mention the book is arranged in a style I am
    accustomed to already (footnoting). I borrowed the version that
    reads from left to right although the "Gates of Prayer" I have reads
    right to left.
    
    What really impressed me was the fact that there was so much commentary
    *just* on the first Chapter of Genesis. No wonder people can and
    do spend a lifetime studying the Torah!
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Mark

    I also like this edition.  The translation is the new JPS version,
    which I find the most readable and moving of all I've seen.  The
    commentary often comes from a Reform slant, but I have enough knowledge
    of Judaism to be able to distinguish biblical scholarship from Reform
    ideology -- I don't recommend this version as the ONLY source for
    someone who wants to learn about Judaism in general.
    
    Other commentaried versions I would recommend are not yet complete:
    
    The JPS has issued the Leviticus volume of their commented Chumash -- it
    looks excellent and is non-sectarian.  The Artscroll Tanach series is
    extremely ambitious, has an excellent new translation, and has the
    "best" of the traditional commentaries as well as modern orthodox ones
    that lean toward Chabad.  THEIR Genesis takes up two 1000-page volumes!
    
    The Hertz and Soncino one-volume editions are Conservative and
    Traditional (i.e. Rashi, Ibn-Ezra, Sforno commentaries) respectively,
    are venerable and inexpensive, but are based on the 1918 JPS version
    that reads almost exactly like the King James.  I wouldn't recommend
    them as a basis for learning about modern Judaism.
    
    Thanks for your participation in BAGELS, Mark.  I hope we have all been
    helpful to you.
    
    Ed

    Re .3:
    
    Your welcome, Ed. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say this is a
    great notesfile. It's very educational and you meet some nice people
    too. Can't go wrong there!
    
    Mark

    A good translation with traditional sources is Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's
    "The Living Torah."

    Re .5:
    
    Thanks for the reference.
    
    Given where I'm coming from, and no doubt there might be other
    perspectives on this which I always try to be open to, "The Torah
    With Modern Commentary" appears to be a pretty good place to start.
    But I think exposure to more traditional sources is good also so
    I'll try to add them to my reading list whenever possible.
    
    Perhaps I should explain what "given where I'm coming from" means.
    My background for the last 20 years or so has been liberal Protestant
    Christian. In terms of how I view the literalness of the Torah, and
    hopefully without being the instigator of an "Orthodox vs. Reform"
    debate, that makes me roughly equivalent to a Reform person. I guess
    what I liked about Plaut's commentary was that it compared a wide
    variety of views (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) in the footnoting
    in an attempt to help the modern reader understand what was written so
    many years ago.
    
    I now have a little better understanding of Jewish criticisms of
    Christian doctrine. I definitely agree with the Jewish viewpoint
    that the early Church essentially scoured the Torah and the writings
    of the Prophets for any possible Christological reference they could
    find in order to elevate Christian doctrine (a process which is
    still underway BTW among fundamentalist Christians) at the expense
    of the Jewish people. And let's face it - some of the analogies
    they drew (the story of Abraham and Isaac and how it was comparable
    to Jesus on the Cross) are really stretching things just a little.
    
    So that's a little insight into my perspective. Thanks for your
    patience and understanding.
    
    Mark

re .6:

>                                                                I guess
>   what I liked about Plaut's commentary was that it compared a wide
>   variety of views (Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) ...
    
>                         And let's face it - some of the analogies
>   they drew (the story of Abraham and Isaac and how it was comparable
>   to Jesus on the Cross) are really stretching things just a little.
    
    A little free association here...  I saw an exhibit of art inspired
    by the akeida (binding of Isaac).  One of the most interesting works
    was a Moslem artist's rendition of the binding of Ishmael!  It seems
    that according to (some?) Moslems, it wasn't Isaac, it was Ishmael.

    Hi there Mark!  Just read your message(s) and the replies.  Yes
    you have received some excellent information.  By the way, both
    bookstores will accept yout charges so that they can mail you anything
    you want, including annotated reading lists.
    
    Don't sell yourself so short on you 'relative' understanding.  Your
    doing much better than you think.
    
    I agree AND disagree with some of the comments you received relative
    to the translations that have been referred to you. At on time I
    accepted these perspectives myself, until a light bulb turned on.....I
    realized that both the Torah and their commentaries are economically,
    as well as sociologically based.  That put me into a completely
    different area, and I started reading all I could find about the
    history and economics of the approximate times in the Torah.  In
    terms of the idiom of the days in which it was written ( over many
    different periods!) everything suddenly amde much good sense.  Then
    I tried to understand the'life and times' of the commentators, and
    could better understand the relationships with the Torah.  This
    all makes me a maverick, whom many have called crazy.  Maybe so....but
    it works for me, to what I consider to be have a better understanding
    about what it is all about.  
    
    Keep up your good work!
    
    Regards, BDL

    Re .8:
    
    Thanks for the encouragement, Betty.
    
    Every time I read a little bit more (an hour here, an hour there)
    of the Torah, it seems little pieces of the puzzle are starting
    to fall into place. Of course, there's still a bunch more pieces left,
    but some of the pieces that have been around the longest in my mind
    are starting to fit.
    
    For example, contrary to strict Christian doctrine which seems to
    emphasize only the "stiffnecked" characterization of the Jewish people
    found in the Torah while disregarding many positive characterizations
    of the Jewish people, Plaut's commentary on Moses receiving the
    Law and why makes sense. Here we are reading about a people who
    had been enslaved for many years, had just been delivered from the
    hands of their oppressors by a miracle, and are now enjoying some
    freedom. In order to keep things in check, G_d strikes a bargain with
    the Israelites. He says I will look after you forever and you will be
    My People if you obey My Law. In effect, it's like a Constitution between
    G_d and Israel with Moses being the intermediary between the two
    parties. Israel agrees. This doesn't say that there wouldn't be
    any ups and downs in the relationship. On the contrary, human
    imperfection guarantees a some times rocky relationship. What it
    does say is that this Compact, if you will, between G_d and Israel
    is absolutely *unique* among world religions. No one else has it
    and that to me is one reason why the Jews are G_d's Chosen People
    - because they were the first.
    
    I lapsed into "rambling mode" I think. I look forward to reading and
    learning some more of course.
    
    Oh, BTW, Betty, I still haven't contacted the Dutch Consulate about
    the passenger manifest but I haven't forgotten about it either.
    As soon as I get out from under my present workload, I'll make the
    call. I'll keep you posted.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Mark

The bit about Ishmael is in the Koran. An Islaamic co-worker
(now a university professor) told me that the Koran retells many
biblical stories, but with a twist such as this one.

Dave