| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 757.1 | Twenty facts about Paletine Problem | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Wed Aug 16 1989 15:20 | 145 |
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TWENTY BASIC FACTS ABOUT THE PALESTINE PROBLEM
**********************************************
DID YOU KNOW:
1. THAT, when the Palestine Problem was created by Britain in
1917, more than 90% of the population of Palestine were
Arabs?... And that there were at that time no more than
56,000 Jews in Palestine?
2. THAT, more than half of the Jews living in Palestine at that
time were recent immigrants, who had come to Palestine in the
preceding decades in order to escape persecution in Europe?..
And that less than 5% of the population of Palestine were
native Palestinian Jews?
3. THAT, the Arabs of Palestine at that time owned 97% of the
land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants
together) owned only 2 1/2% of the land?
4. THAT, during the thirty years of British occupation and rule,
the Zionists were able to purchase only 3 1/2% of the land of
Palestine, in spite of the encouragement of the British Government?.
And that much of its land was transferred to Zionists bodies
by the British Government directly, and was not sold by Arab
owners?
5. THAT, therefore, when Britain passed the Palestine Problem to
the United Nations in 1947, Zionists owned no more than 6% of
the total land area of Palestine?
6. THAT, notwithstanding these facts, the General Assembly of
the United Nations recommended that a "Jewish State" be
established in Palestine?... And that the Assembly granted
that proposed "State" about 54% of the total area of the
country?
7. THAT, Israel immediately occupied (and still occupies) 80.48%
of the total land area of Palestine.
8. THAT, this territorial expansion took place, for the most
part, before 15 May 1948, i.e., before the formal end of the
British mandate and the withdrawal of British forces from
Palestine, before the entry of Arab armies to protect
Palestinian Arabs, and before the Arab- Israeli war?
9. THAT, the 1947 recommendation of the General Assembly in
favor of the creation of a "Jewish State" was outside the
competence of the Assembly under the Charter of the United
Nations?
10. THAT, all attempts by the Arab States and other Asian
countries to have the Assembly submit the question of
"constitutionality" of its recommendation to the
International Court of Justice for an "advisory opinion" by
the Court were rejected or ignored by the Assembly?
11. THAT, when the Assembly began to experience "second thoughts"
over the matter and convened for its second special session
in 1948, it failed to reaffirm the 1947 recommendation for
the partition of Palestine - thus destroying whatever dubious
legality that recommendation for the establishment of a
"Jewish State" had had?
12. THAT, the original 1947 recommendation to create a "Jewish
State" in Palestine was approved, at the first vote, only by
European, American, and Australian States ... for every Asian
State, and every African State (with the exception of the
Union of South Africa) voted against it? ... And that, when
the vote was cast in plenary session on 29 November 1947,
urgent American pressures (which a member of the Truman
cabinet described as "bordering into scandal") had succeeded
in prevailing only upon one Asian country (the Philippines)
and one African country (Liberia), both of which had special
vulnerability to American pressures, to abandon their
declared opposition?... And, that, in other words, the
"Jewish State" was planted at the point-of-intersection of
Asia and Africa without the free approval of any Middle
Eastern, Asian, or African country except that Union of South
Africa itself was ruled by an alien minority?
13. THAT, Israel remained, ever since its inception, a total
stranger in the emerging world of Afro-Asia; and that Israel
has been refused admission to any inter-state conference of
Asian, African, Afro-Asian, or Non-Aligned States ever held?
14. THAT, since the General Armistice Agreements were signed in
1949, Israel has maintained an aggressive policy of waging
military trucks across the Armistice Demarcation Lines, repeatedly
invading the territories of the neighboring Arab States...
And that Israel has been duly rebuked, censured, or condemned
for these military attacks by the Security Council or the
General Assembly of the United Nations on eleven occasions -
five times by the Security Council and six times by the
General Assembly?
15. THAT, no other country in the world, whether member of the
United Nations or non- member, has been so frequently
condemned by the United Nations?
16. THAT, no Arab State has ever been condemned by any organ of
the United Nations for military attacks upon Israel (or any
other State)?
17. THAT, besides expelling the bulk of the Arab inhabitants of
Palestine, and besides constantly attacking the neighboring
Arab States, Israel has also consistently harassed the United
Nations observer and other personnel stations along the
Armistice Demarcation lines: It has assassinated the first
United Nations Mediator and his military aide; it has militarily
occupied and illegally searched the Headquarters of United
Nations personnel; and it has boycotted meetings of the Mixed
Armistice Commissions?
18. THAT, Israel has additionally imposed a system of apartheid
upon the Arabs who stayed in their homeland?... More than 90%
of these Arabs live in "security zones"; they alone live
under martial law, restricting their freedom to travel from
village to village or from town to town; their children
denied equal opportunities for education; and they are denied
decent opportunities for work, and the right to receive
"equal pay for equal work"?
19. THAT, notwithstanding the foregoing facts, Israel has always
been, and still is, widely portrayed in the Western press as
the "bastion of democracy" and the "champion of peace" in the
Middle East?
20. THAT, the Western Powers have persisted in declaring their
determination to ensure a so- called "arms balance" in the
area, between Israel on the one hand, and the one-hundred million
inhabitants of the thirteen Arab States on the other hand?...
And this unilateral Western doctrine of so-called "arms
balance" is no more reasonable than the suggestion that, in
the Cuban-US conflict, there should be "arms balance" between
Cuba and the United States... or that the whole Continent of
Africa should not be allowed to acquire more arms than South
Africa... or that mainland China should not be permitted to
have more arms than Taiwan... or that the military allowed to
acquire more arms than South Africa... and that only thus can
peace be safeguarded in the Western hemisphere, in Africa, in
Asia, or in Europe?...
|
| 757.3 | Palestinian casualties for March, 1989. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Wed Aug 16 1989 15:29 | 33 |
|
[From the Jordanian Addustour newspaper, April 5, 1989]
Palestinian casualties for the month of March, 1989.
o Palestinians killed 38
slain by military cars 8
o Women aborted because of the toxic gases and 68
beatings with truncheons.
o Wounded 1944
which included wounds from,
live bullets 598
tear gas 113
incendiary bombs 15
beaten by truncheons 990
o Taken prisoners 1231
children under 10 100
o Residential buildings demolished or were exploded 80
o Adjacent houses damaged due to demolitions 18
o Persons becoming homeless from house demolitions 972
o Trees destroyed by bulldozers as punishment 1710
Three commercial shops and 15 standing walls were also destroyed.
Contents were destroyed in hundreds of houses.
|
| 757.4 | Uprising events of April/May 1989. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Wed Aug 16 1989 15:51 | 199 |
|
The Ittihad newspaper of Haifa (April 13, 1989) reported that on
April 9, soldiers of the border guard forced the women of
Qaytoun Street in AlKhalil to leave their homes to erase slogans
written on the walls of AlKhalil and its streets. The soldiers
disregarded familial feelings that men should perform this task
instead of women. The house of Ahmad AbuSaneena (63 years old)
was one of the houses broken into by the occupation forces to
force the women of that house to erase the slogans. One of the
soldiers pulled the daughter of Ahmed AbuSaneena from her house
and with a stream of insults and vulgar language ordered her to
erase the slogans written on neighboring walls. This scene was
highly objectionable to Ahmad AbuSaneena and one of his sons,
Abdul Jabbar (20 years old), so they confronted the soldiers and
tried to prevent this humiliation to the girl and her family.
The soldiers shot and killed the 63-year old father and wounded
his son.
===================================================================
Israeli soldiers viciously attacked Marwan Dari (15 years) in the
town of AlEssawieh, which is close to Jerusalem, when he refused
to step on the Palestinian flag. Because of his refusal to step
on the flag, the soldiers tied him to the back of a military
jeep and pulled him behind them (AlQabas, April 4, 1989).
===================================================================
The Israeli authorities exploded and closed 15 homes,
charging that the occupants resisted the occupation (The
Associated Press, May 15, 1989). Also, on May 3, 1989, the
authorities demolished five houses in Artas village and Dehesha
camp near Bethlehem making the same charges. On May 23, 1989,
the Israeli authorities demolished seven houses in different
villages around AlKhalil (The Associated Press, May 21, 1989).
===================================================================
The Ittihad (Haifa, April 13, 1989) reported that on April 12,
Khaled Abdurrazzaq Saleem (43 years), a citizen of Salwad, was
taken to Ramallah Hospital in the afternoon because of some
fractures to his ribs. These fractures were caused by brutal
torture and beating for a period of six hours.
Khaled Abdurrazzaq Saleem is the owner of a laundry shop in the
village of Baytain in the district of Ramallah. He had refused
to erase the slogan written on the wall of the village near his
shop explaining to the soldiers that he is old and suffers from
weak eyesight, that he also did not have proper materials with
which to erase the slogans. In response, the soldiers brutally
beat him and tied him with his hands behind his back to a post
in the street. He was left in that position from 8:00 AM until
2:00 PM. During that time, the soldiers broke into his shop,
destroyed its contents, broke the glass, and repeated hitting
him at varying intervals.
===================================================================
The Israeli Alhamshmar newspaper related on April 19, 1989 to
Reserve Lt. Colonel Aleeshaa Shabira, Secretary of the Regional
Kibutz and Commander of a reserve brigade in Nablus, saying: "I
heard Colonel Yehuda Meyer blaming a commander in Nablus because
he had arrested a young Arab without breaking anything in him
and asked him 'why did I see no swelling on this arrested?'"
Shabira reported this in a press conference in Tel Aviv on April
17, 1989, on the occassion of publishing the journal, The
Fighters Dialogue '89.
He also added that Colonel Meyer refused the commander's
explanation that the Arab didn't show any resistance during his
arrest, and that's why he didn't beat him; therefore the Colonel
blamed him. Shabira stated that Meyer gave an order through the
communication system to break the hands and legs of young Arabs
before arresting them.
===================================================================
A baby, Mohammad Hamdan Qassem (8 months), was shot in his head
on May 20, 1989. Afterward, he was taken to the Maqased
hospital in Jerusalem, where he was put under intensive care.
The accident happened in the camp of Tolkarem according to his
mother, Samira Qassem (23 years). She said that she was coming
back from visiting her father, holding the hand of her daughter
(3 years) and carrying her baby Mohammad. No demonstrations
were under way in the street. Suddenly, she heard a shot and
saw blood running from the baby's head. She looked around with
fear and saw a group of soldiers a hundred meters away and
started shouting: "My baby has been shot."
A Israeli military spokesman claimed that Samira was
participating in a demonstration against the soldiers. However,
the mother denied this accusation, saying: "I would never
jeopardize my children by placing them into demonstration."
Dr. Waheed Addajani, head of Anesthesiology and the Intensive
Care Department in the Maqased hospital, advised that: "Mohammad
suffers a dangerous shivery in the brain. We took out a part of
his brain, and if he lives he is susceptible to all kinds of
dangers." Some Palestinians told the news agencies that the
soldiers shoot at citizens without reason, only to terrorize
them.
===================================================================
Members of a family in the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza Strip had
to go out in a curfew to find food for their starving babies. The
soldiers opened fire on them, killing five and wounding many
others. (Los Angeles Times, May 20, 1989). The next day, Nazmi
Mussla (13 years) succumbed to the wounds he received in the
Rafah massacre (United Press, May 20, 1989).
===================================================================
Israeli Deputy Yussy Sarid confirmed to the Israeli Haaretz
newspaper that the Israeli forces entered Hawwara village in
Nablus last year. He said that about 40 soldiers entered the
village on buses with land jeeps escorting them. They showed
the mayor of the village a list of five names that were randomly
chosen; the men were arrested at 11 PM. Then, they took them to
the gardens by shifts of three and severely beat them with
sticks. This resulted in the fracturing of their arms and legs.
They left one of them, however, without broken legs so that he
would be able to go to the village and generate terror there
(Asharq AlAwsat, May 21, 1989).
===================================================================
At 3:30 AM on April 13, 1989, 35 army jeeps broke into the
Nahaline, a village of 2500 people, which is in close proximity
to Bethlehem. It was the period of fasting and people were
having their pre-dawn meal. The soldiers entered the village from
four directions to arrest some of the youths. At 5:00 AM in front
of the village mosque, the soldiers started to shot at people as
they were praying. Four persons were killed immediately, a
fifth person died in the hospital, and more than 40 people were
injured. Then, with obscene gestures, the soldiers entered the
mosque, destroyed the windows, and tore the wall journal issued
by the village youth.
===================================================================
Palestinian sources told an Israeli Jerusalem Post reporter that
the Israeli soldiers occupying Dair Al-Ballut school on the West
Bank tore out the pages in the Quran and used them as toilet
paper. The pages of the Quran were scattered over the floors of
restrooms, which the soldiers had used as a toilet, and the
school playground. One of the villagers declared, "They can demolish
our houses, destroy our furniture and beat us, but we will not
be himiliated by their treatment of our religion in this way."
The school principal, Khalil Abdul-Jawad, reported that these
conditions were discovered on Wednesday, May 24, 1989 when the
curfew was lifted.
===================================================================
The Israeli Hadashote newspaper (April 14, 1989) quoted that
the commander of Jerusalem police, General Yusef Yehudai, had
received a report relating to the sexual and physical torture
committed by Israeli soldiers against the political prisoners in
Al-Maskubiyeh prison in Jerusalem. The newspaper tells about
the arrest of a 16-year-old girl. After her arrest, while in
the car on the way to prison, the policemen ordered her to
spread her legs apart whereupon they beat her with a truncheon
between her legs. They also attempted to insert a truncheon
into her sexual organs.
In the investigation room, she refused to sign a confession
written in Hebrew; the investigators then beat her on the
fingers of her tied hands with an iron bar. Afterwards, on the
night of March 18, one day before her trial, she was taken out
of the inmates room and put in a single room where three
policemen threatened to rape her if she refused to confess.
They threatened to push an iron bar into her sexual organs.
Then, she was tied up and severely beaten on her breasts and
around the sexual organs. She was then taken out of the room to
go to court when a policeman threw her down on the floor and
jumped on her, according to the report.
On April 27, 1989, the same Israeli newspaper in yet another
report said that Iyan Faraani, a female lawyer, presented a
complaint against a rape attempt on a 13-year-old girl
imprisoned in the Russian Square prison in Jerusalem. Faraani
said that the girl was arrested at home about midnight of April
15, 1989 when she was ascending her stairs in Ras Al_Aamud in
Jerusalem. She was accused of writing slogans critical of
Isreali authorities and was taken to a Jerusalem prison. A few
hours later she was returned to her home, photographed next to
the written slogans and then taken back to prison. In prison,
she was taken into a small room where the two investigators
ripped off her clothes and tied her to a bed. They then told
her they had the O.K. to interrogate her in this condition,
nude, and tied to the bed. After that they fondled her nude
body and the girl became aware that they were going to rape her.
Because of this she then signed a confession admitting to the
accusations in order to escape rape.
[From the Palestine Monitor, published by the I.A.P. Information Office,
P. O. Box 44154, Tucson, AZ 85733, August 11, 1989. It's purpose, as
described in the newletter, is "to explain the Palestinian cause from its
suffering people's point of view".]
|
| 757.5 | | TAV02::SID | | Wed Aug 16 1989 17:14 | 28 |
| Wonderful, Mr. Ashaf, you certainly picked the right neighborhood
to go parading these tired old half-truths. I'm sure the
dependable people of this conference, at least those with the time and
inclination, will once again point out how whatever truth there
is in these articles needs to be understood in a wider context
than you chose to present it.
As for me, I admit I didn't read through the whole thing. For me
you sort of lost credibility when you wrote:
> 15. THAT, no other country in the world, whether member of the
> United Nations or non- member, has been so frequently
> condemned by the United Nations [as Israel]?
> 16. THAT, no Arab State has ever been condemned by any organ of
> the United Nations for military attacks upon Israel (or any
> other State)?
As if the UN has any objective moral stature at all. For the last week
and more, the Syrian army has been carpet-bombing Beirut, destroying
whatever is left of that poor miserable city. Can you imagine what the
world reaction would be if it was Israel doing this? If it was Moslems
rather than Christians who were being shelled into oblivion? But
no, the UN in its great wisdom and sense of justice, decided
today not even to discuss the Syrian destruction of Beirut. So
what are we to understand from the fact that "no Arab State has ever been
condemned by .. the United Nations for military attacks upon... any
other State?"
|
| 757.6 | Sorry to disappoint you, but... | TAV02::SID | | Thu Aug 17 1989 03:19 | 7 |
| And one other thing:
I care not a whit what 100 million Arabs, plus all the
countries of Asia and Africa think about whether Israel
has the right to exist. We've been here 41 years, and
we're not going anywhere, so you may as well just get
used to the idea.
Sid
|
| 757.7 | | SUBWAY::STEINBERG | | Thu Aug 17 1989 09:51 | 4 |
| Mr. Ashraf,
Don't forget, you started! Some interesting facts follow, courtesy of
Don Feinberg.
|
| 757.8 | | SUBWAY::STEINBERG | | Thu Aug 17 1989 10:04 | 2 |
| Sorry for the delay, we're experiencing some network problems. Stay
tuned!!
|
| 757.9 | Well, for instance... | CASP::SEIDMAN | Aaron Seidman | Thu Aug 17 1989 13:05 | 60 |
| RE: .1
>8. THAT, this territorial expansion took place, for the most
> part, before 15 May 1948, i.e., before the formal end of the
> British mandate and the withdrawal of British forces from
> Palestine, before the entry of Arab armies to protect
> Palestinian Arabs, and before the Arab- Israeli war?
Well, yes and no. Immediately after the U.N. Resolution, the Jews
announced that they accepted it and the Arabs attacked the Jews in
several locations; Jerusalem was besieged. The British withdrew from
a number of strongpoints in what was supposed to be the Jewish state,
but turned over the fortifications to Arab forces. (I have the feeling
that both sides share a negative feeling about the behavior of the British
government in all this.) The Haganah responded by counterattacking.
>9. THAT, the 1947 recommendation of the General Assembly in
> favor of the creation of a "Jewish State" was outside the
> competence of the Assembly under the Charter of the United
> Nations?
In the opinion of the writer quoted here, not in the opinion of the
General Assembly.
>14. THAT, since the General Armistice Agreements were signed in
> 1949, Israel has maintained an aggressive policy of waging
> military trucks across the Armistice Demarcation Lines, repeatedly
> invading the territories of the neighboring Arab States...
Israel has followed a consistent policy of tit for tat. It responded
with roughly equivalent military retaliation to incursions from other
countries. Over time, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt got the message and
curbed infiltration. When armed attacks on Israel stopped, military
reprisals by Israel stopped.
>18. THAT, Israel has additionally imposed a system of apartheid
> upon the Arabs who stayed in their homeland?...
No. There is a real problem with discrimination and it is something
that concerns many Israelis, but Israeli Arabs have legal and political
rights that have been upheld in the Israeli courts. They vote and own
property and have access to legal redress that is denied black South
Africans. Neither Israeli nor American Jews should pretend that all is
well with the treatment of Israeli Arabs. On the other hand Arab
supporters should not distort them into something that is obviously not
so, because this destroys their credibility.
>19. THAT, notwithstanding the foregoing facts, Israel has always
> been, and still is, widely portrayed in the Western press as
> the "bastion of democracy" and the "champion of peace" in the
> Middle East?
Well, all adult citizens can vote in the regularly scheduled elections
and hold office. How many other Middle Eastern states can say the
same? As far as peace is concerned, I think the record is clear.
Sadat showed he was serious about peace and he got peace from the
Israelis. Arafat says he wants peace. It remains to be seen if he is
serious.
Aaron
|
| 757.10 | A fairly obvious statement | ABE::STARIN | RMC USNR | Thu Aug 17 1989 13:38 | 7 |
| Re .0:
Is Syria a democratic state and a puppet of the Soviet Union?
Does a bear p*** in the woods?
Mark
|
| 757.11 | Ooops | ABE::STARIN | RMC USNR | Thu Aug 17 1989 13:43 | 8 |
| Re .10:
I meant to type, "Is Syria a totalitarian state and a puppet of the
Soviet Union?"
Sorry about that.
Mark
|
| 757.12 | | LDYBUG::ALLISTER | | Mon Aug 21 1989 11:56 | 18 |
| re .0
So you say that the problem was created by Britain in 1917 when less
than 10% of the Palestinian population consisted of Jews?
My view is different. Tell me, why in 1917, more than 95% of all Jews
were in Europe, Americas, Asia and Africa, and less than 5% of all Jews
were in Palestine? You ought to study history -- the problem was created
many centuries before the first British ever set his foot there, and
centuries before the birth of Islam.
Regarding the rest of the 20 "facts": some are mildly accurate, most
are taken out of the context, all are full of half truths. In politics,
it is OK to push your own biased views as long as you are "addressing your
own party" so to say, but if you want to debate, you'll have to do your
homework better than that...
Al
|
| 757.13 | Don't mix Lebanon with occupied West Bank and Gaza! | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Mon Aug 21 1989 14:28 | 63 |
|
<RE:.5>
Mr. Sid,
>As for me, I admit I didn't read through the whole thing. For me
>you sort of lost credibility when you wrote:
How can you comment if you didn't read the whole thing?
I was simply quoting the brochure published by a Palestinian
organization, and so what logic you used to determine I lost my
credibility is besides me!
>As if the UN has any objective moral stature at all.
I fully agree with you. It is a debating society running at the whims
of the super-powers and their vetoes.
>For the last week
>and more, the Syrian army has been carpet-bombing Beirut, destroying
>whatever is left of that poor miserable city.
The conflict in Lebanon goes back 50 years or so and was a result of
the way French ended their colonialism with certain group dominating
others, and the resentment built up over the years, complicated by
the Palestinian refugee problem.
Syria entered Lebanon at the invitation of the Lebanese. However, the
interests of the Syrians are self-serving in Lebanon, and their
oppression is to be condemned. The interests of Israel in Lebanon
are also self-serving, and their oppression is also to be condemned as
well.
Now that I joined you in stating that Syria has committed atrocities,
are you willing to state the same for Israel, or tell me why you don't?
This is also the response to <757.10>!
>Can you imagine what the
>world reaction would be if it was Israel doing this?
Read <747.10>
>If it was Moslems
>rather than Christians who were being shelled into oblivion? But
>no, the UN in its great wisdom and sense of justice, decided
>today not even to discuss the Syrian destruction of Beirut.
For your information, it was the same Syrians who sided with the
Christians in trying to shell the Palestinian Muslims into oblivion
(before Israel tried the same thing in South Lebanon and got bogged
down. He soon you forget!) What happened then? Was there even a
UN resolution to stop fighting?
The Christians are also being supported by other countries,
particularly Iraq and Israel, and are well armed. I am not defending
the carnage, but simply stating that it is not in the interests of
both Israel and Syria, and their backers, that Lebanon be NOT destroyed!
P.S. Since the above is MY opinion, if some can prove that I have lost
my credibility based on these comment, then that will make sense,
Mr. Sid.
|
| 757.14 | Turning the world upside down! | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Mon Aug 21 1989 14:57 | 35 |
|
> You ought to study history -- the problem was created
> many centuries before the first British ever set his foot there, and
> centuries before the birth of Islam.
Oh, I see where you are coming from! So you are saying that the claim
is based on 95% of the Jews leaving Palestine thousands of years ago?
All I can do is quote someone when the issue of partitioning Palestine
was being discussed in the British Parliament.
"Palestine is not the original home of Jews. It was acquired
by them after a ruthless conquest, they have never occupied
the whole of it, which now they openly demand. They have no
more valid claim to Palestine than the descendents of the
ancient Romans have to this country. The Romans occupied
Britain as long as the Israelites occupied Palestine, and they
left behind them in this country far more valuable and useful
work.
If we are going to admit claims based on conquests thousands
of years ago, the whole world will have to be turned upside
down. ..."
Lord Sydenham, Hansard, House of Lords, 21 June 1922.
> but if you want to debate, you'll have to do your
> homework better than that...
I am getting the impression that when "certain" differing opinions
are presented, rather than repudating these opinions as untrue or
inaccurate based on logic, attempts are made to label the noter as
ignorant! Do you mean everyone who is debating the issues here has
to have a Ph.D. in history?
|
| 757.15 | Okay, let's discuss it | TAV02::SID | | Mon Aug 21 1989 16:46 | 32 |
| 1. Okay, let's leave the UN out of this, since we both agree
that its opinions and declarations are irrelevant (you say so
because you think the super-powers have too much control.
I say so because I think the thirds world countries automatically
vote the anti-Israel line, but at least we agree).
2. And okay, let's agree that poor Lebanon has had more than its
fair share of misery at the hands of many different occupying forces.
(every time I read what's happening in Lebanon I shudder at what
could happen to Israel if the Shiites/PLO/Syrians/whoever were
in power here).
3. Don't be insulted if I don't read every word you enter here.
Trust me that I've read enough of this sort of thing to have a
pretty good idea what it says and I just don't have the time. Tell
me, do you enter it all by hand or do you just copy it from somewhere?
4. So let's talk about "bottom line". My note .6 (I think) really
sums up my feelings about all this, ("no, we're not going anywhere
so you may as well just get used to the idea") though a couple people
have told me it's too emotional. Do you really think Israel is
going to close up shop and all its people are going to go back to Europe
or Morocco just because some people think it was founded illegitemately?
So what exactly are you proposing when you try to convince people
that we have no right to be here?
That's why it's beneath my/our dignity and sovereignty to discuss our
"right to exist". We exist. Now be constructive and tell me how you
think we can put an end to the bloodshed in the Middle East.
Yours for peace, but not for suicide,
Sid
|
| 757.16 | How Do You Spell Syrian Military Power? S-O-V-I-E-T | ABE::STARIN | RMC USNR | Mon Aug 21 1989 17:19 | 25 |
| Re .13:
Let's look at the proverbial bottom line......
Syrian military hardware (as well as Libyan and Iraqi) was acquired
almost exclusively from Soviet or Warsaw Pact sources. Now why would
third-world countries like Syria, Libya, and Iraq need T-72 tanks
and Mig-21's? Tanks are *offensive* weapons mostly (although they
can function in a defensive role) and Mig-21's are air superiority
aircraft. Why would the Soviets give offensive arms to countries that
border on or have disputes with Israel unless they hoped the Arabs
would *use* them in an offensive against Israel?
Why did the Soviets nearly intervene in 1973 to rescue the Egyptian
Army that was trapped by the Israeli's in the Sinai?
Israel and the US have a bilateral treaty but that doesn't mean
they agree on everything. However, given the totalitarian nature
of most of the Arab states in that region, they certainly are a
far more democratic alternative to the Hassad's and Khadafy's normally
found there.
Just some opinions......
Mark
|
| 757.17 | Respect of each others' rights. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Mon Aug 21 1989 18:27 | 11 |
| <RE: .15>
>Now be constructive and tell me how you
>think we can put an end to the bloodshed in the Middle East.
The bloodshed can be put to an end only if the Israelis and the
Palestinians can sit down and negotiate with the representatives of
the respective sides, whoever they choose. The rights of the
Palestinians have been ignored not only by the Israelis, but also
the Egyptians and the Jordanians! Jordan's Hussein was too happy to
renounce his dreams of re-acquiring the occupied territories.
|
| 757.18 | Beita: a powerful symbol of intifidah. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Mon Aug 21 1989 19:00 | 18 |
|
The Boston Globe Magazine of August 20, 1989, Pg. 18, has an
article, entitled "Town Without Pity", on the sufferings, the
fear, and the hatred for each other of the Palestinians and the
Israelis in Beita, near Nablus, and how it has become a powerful
symbol of the intifadah.
<RE .16>
None of the issues you discuss is directly related to the topic
of discussion, so I'll refrain from responding, except to say
that the Arabs cannot be characterized as one big rowdy bunch,
that Egypt (and some other countries in the area) are allied to
US than to the Soviets, and that Khaddafy is in North Africa not
Middle East!
|
| 757.19 | Sydenham was wrong | CASP::SEIDMAN | Aaron Seidman | Mon Aug 21 1989 21:12 | 27 |
| re: .14
> they have never occupied
> the whole of it
Twentieth century archaeology shows Lord Sydenham to have been wrong
about this.
> The Romans occupied
> Britain as long as the Israelites occupied Palestine,
There is archeological evidence that the Israelites occupied the hill
country by about 1200 b.c.e., and we know that they still constituted a
major, self-governing, segment of the population at the time of the
Sassanian invasion (6xx? c.e.). That's almost two millennia, far more
time than the Romans were in Britain. In addition, there are
references to the crusaders ordering Jews to be excluded from
Jerusalem, indicating that there was a Jewish community there in the
middle ages, and in the first modern census taken by the Turks, Jews
were the largest population group in Jerusalem. In short, Jews have
been living there for over 3000 years.
This form of fiction, exemplified by the Sydenhams of the world, should
be laid to rest. There are other valid claims to the land, but they do
not diminish the Jewish one.
Aaron
|
| 757.20 | Beita: a powerful symbol of pure hatred | PAYME::MONTY | LEG has it now .... FCS '92 | Tue Aug 22 1989 06:31 | 29 |
| RE: .17
>> The rights of the
>> Palestinians have been ignored not only by the Israelis, but also
>> the Egyptians and the Jordanians! Jordan's Hussein was too happy to
>> renounce his dreams of re-acquiring the occupied territories.
You forget to mention that the rights of the Israelis have been
ignored by the ..... etc ... etc... .
Even the PLO's "declaration" of "Israel's right to exist", has been
very reminicent of "now you see it .. now you don't".
Sid, said it very succinctly "yes for peace, no for suicide".
RE: .18
The Boston Globe Magazine of August 20, 1989, Pg. 18, has an
article, entitled "Town Without Pity", on the sufferings, the
fear, and the hatred for each other of the Palestinians and the
Israelis in Beita, near Nablus, and how it has become a powerful
symbol of the intifadah.
Hmm... I suppose it would be the Boston Globe. :-)
Beita has become an interesting symbol also among Israeli (across
a large cresent of opinion). It showed a lot of Israeli that there is
a segment of the West Bank population (not all), who will kill maim
and harm Israeli whenever they can.
|
| 757.21 | OK, if you say so..... | ABE::STARIN | RMC USNR | Tue Aug 22 1989 09:35 | 16 |
| Re .18:
Well, OK.......if Soviet aid to nations opposing Israel (no matter
what their geographic location might be) is not an issue in this
discussion, then I would hope US aid to Israel would not be either.
The fact that Egypt is now more or less aligned with the US is really
not an issue. The country is still basically unstable; Mubarak could
be overthrown tomorrow (witness what happened to Sadat) and overnight
the whole picture could change. Not to mention the Soviet Navy could
be once again making port calls at Alexandria.
It would be nice if geopolitics was not a factor but it is and we
have to live with it.
Mark
|
| 757.22 | Killing, maiming, or hurting one's own. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Wed Aug 23 1989 13:29 | 32 |
| <RE:.20>
>Beita has become an interesting symbol also among Israeli (across
>a large cresent of opinion). It showed a lot of Israeli that there is
>a segment of the West Bank population (not all), who will kill maim
>and harm Israeli whenever they can.
Rather than what's described in .20, it very clear to whoever reads
the said article that:
- The Israelis and Palestinians in Beita are afraid of and
hate each other.
- An armed Israeli group went into a Palestinian village, knowing
full well that this may instigate a disturbance, NOT a
Palestinian going out to kill, maim, or hurt an Israeli. An
armed settler, who had been in trouble before, killed one of his
own, an innocent child. [This has been very conveniently left out
in .20]
- Palestinians, who STOPPED killing, maiming or harming,
also saw their houses being blown apart, as a "reward" in a
democratic state. Actually, the military administration did offer
compensation, but it was refused as a matter of principle.
The villagers were fired from their menial jobs in Israel as a
collective punishment, resulting in 90% unemployment in the
village. [A very probable cause for more disturbances].
- Israel's "iron fist" policies have failed to break the will
of the Palestinians (this includes millions who DON'T kill, hurt,
or maim, and who actively STOP killing, maiming, and hurting.
|
| 757.23 | change the flyers you read :-( | PAYME::MONTY | LEG has it now .... FCS '92 | Thu Aug 24 1989 05:44 | 57 |
| re: .22
>> - An armed Israeli group went into a Palestinian village, knowing
>> full well that this may instigate a disturbance, NOT a
>> Palestinian going out to kill, maim, or hurt an Israeli. An
>> armed settler, who had been in trouble before, killed one of his
>> own, an innocent child. [This has been very conveniently left out
>> in .20]
Huh ??? Perhaps you should change the flyers you read.
The "armed Israeli group" consisted of about 20 youngsters from the nearby
townlet of Alon Moreh and two guards. During their day trek home they were
repeatedly stoned by youths in the area. This reached a peak when they
were trapped at the bottom of a wadi and were being pelted with rocks.
[fyi: Read Jonathan Wreschner's note about freedom loving rock throwers].
>> [This has been very conveniently left out in .22]
Now go to a reputable paper and continue reading what happened ....
Why have armed guards you ask ..... why are Israeli's stoned and killed.
The recent case of an unarmed hiker from Ariel MURDERED by three local
shepherds is a case in point.
>>- Palestinians, who STOPPED killing, maiming or harming,
>> also saw their houses being blown apart, as a "reward" in a
>> democratic state. Actually, the military administration did offer
>> compensation, but it was refused as a matter of principle.
Yes. According to the reports one house was *wrongly* blown up. Compensation
as you pointed out, WAS offered. A mistake did occur, it was admitted and
an attempt was made to rectify it. Ah.. but Israeli aren't allowed to make
mistakes are they ???
>> The villagers were fired from their menial jobs in Israel as a
>> collective punishment, resulting in 90% unemployment in the
>> village. [A very probable cause for more disturbances].
Collective punishment, very unlikely as the job market is a free market.
Probably, what people saw and heard about what happened in Beita,
shocked and appalled them.
Unemployment isn't only among non-Israelis. Israel is in the middle
of a recession, and unemployment is everywhere.
>>- Israel's "iron fist" policies have failed to break the will
>> of the Palestinians (this includes millions who DON'T kill, hurt,
>> or maim, and who actively STOP killing, maiming, and hurting.
Can't help thinking that gangs going round and intimidating people who
attempt to work and trade with Israel, have helped to keep the populace
in order. Only this week a local from Gaza was killed in his house when
he refused to give up his new ID card to some masked men. (Before you
complain about discrimination, Israeli must also carry ID cards).
Why insist on copying half-truths, write something constructive.
|
| 757.24 | Blinded by prejudice | JACKAL::COHEN | | Thu Aug 24 1989 14:08 | 13 |
| I have found this note to be most fascinating. I though of a rambling
and perhaps "cutting" response to the alleged "facts" which Mr Ashraf
presented, but others have already done so.
My point being, that Mr. Ashraf is not going to "see the light"
and support Israel no matter how many historians, scholars, and
intellectuals present their authenticated proof. What is scary
is that the educated Palestinian and non-Palestinian intellectual alike
can be so blinded by hatred, that they refuse or are unwilling to
seek the truth.
shalom
Ron
|
| 757.25 | == | WMOIS::SAADEH | Will there ever be peace over there | Thu Aug 24 1989 16:12 | 9 |
| RE:-1
Blinded by prejudice
blinded by hatred
Ron, what a cop out. If what you say in your reply is
the TRUTH, ooo well maybe I should go for my Phd.
-Sultan_who_is_trying_his_best to become =
|
| 757.26 | What is the TRUTH, and how is it measured? | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Thu Aug 24 1989 22:00 | 31 |
|
<RE: .24>
> I have found this note to be most fascinating. I though of a rambling
> and perhaps "cutting" response to the alleged "facts" which Mr Ashraf
> presented, but others have already done so.
One can refute "alleged" facts by proving them to be wrong in an
intellectual way, as is done in one's professional life. It is
not necessary to have a "rambling and cutting" response to do that.
The latter can only be done in regards to opinions, which of course
are abstract and can vary.
For e.g. the quote from above "but others have already done so" is
an opinion, and readers' opinions will vary as to whether this is,
in fact, been done or not.
> What is scary
> is that the educated Palestinian and non-Palestinian intellectual alike
> can be so blinded by hatred, that they refuse or are unwilling to
> seek the truth.
What is the "truth" and where is it? Is it some kind of a Boolean
logic? I can refute the above "fact", by stating that it
mentions "Palestinian and non-Palestinian intellectual(s)". Now since
the whole population of educated intellectuals is either Palestinian
or non-Palestinian, the above implies that that particular population
is so blinded by hatred that it refuses or is unwilling to seek the
truth. Whether that is the "truth" or not, I'll leave upto the
reader, who I consider to be educated Palestinian and non-Palestinian
intellectuals by the very "fact" that they work for DIGITAL.
|
| 757.27 | Enough complaining--what's your solution? | MINAR::BISHOP | | Fri Aug 25 1989 11:20 | 29 |
| I'd like to de-rail this conversation a bit.
It's happened before--a well-meaning person portrays the "other"
side, a lot of pro-Israeli notes argue back, eventually the
"other" person gives up (not at that point yet with OLDTMR::ASHRAF).
The basic stances are that the Jews of Israel want peace, but are
scared of annihilation should they loose the ability to defend
themselves (usually this comes out in terms of "defensible borders")
while the Palestinians want peace, but feel they have been robbed
of what was rightfully theirs by a set of thieves who refuse to
acknowledge that there has been a theft.
Rather than playing competitive atrocities, how about suggesting
possible settlements?
I'll start with one that's a bit off the wall, just to loosen up
your thinking.
Israel expells all non-Jews from its current borders and fortifies
(that satisfies them). Israel pays the PLO twenty billion dollars
and publicly admits guilt of theft of land, and the UN gives Namibia
to the PLO (that might satisfy the Palestinianns--now all we have
to worry about are the Namibians, and where the twenty billion comes
from!).
I hope you all can do better.
-John Bishop
|
| 757.28 | Stop oppression! Peaceful existence is possible. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Fri Aug 25 1989 13:44 | 26 |
| <RE: .27>
> It's happened before--a well-meaning person portrays the "other"
> side, a lot of pro-Israeli notes argue back, eventually the
> "other" person gives up (not at that point yet with OLDTMR::ASHRAF).
> Rather than playing competitive atrocities, how about suggesting
> possible settlements?
Very well put! Thanks!
That is where the situation was at .15, but then the atrocities resulted
in distraction.
Back to the subject. There is a small but growing number of Israelis
coming to realize that what is going on in occupied territories is
oppression. They think that peaceful co-existence with Palestinians is
possible. An example is the PEACE NOW movement which is demanding that
the oppression in the occupied territories be stopped. Unfortunately,
they have even been banned by the military administration from making
any kind of contact with the Palestinians.
I particularly commend those Israeli soldiers who, rather than be part
of the oppression (what if a few more people get killed, or maimed, or
hurt, or aborted), opted to go to jail instead. Now that requires a lot
of guts!
|
| 757.29 | Peaceful coexistence? I'm not convinced. | NOTIME::SACKS | Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085 | Fri Aug 25 1989 13:55 | 2 |
| Forgive my pessimism, but wasn't Lebanon founded upon the premise of
peaceful coexistence between Moslems and Christians?
|
| 757.30 | | TAV02::SID | | Sun Aug 27 1989 03:16 | 14 |
| > Israel expells all non-Jews from its current borders and fortifies
> (that satisfies them). Israel pays the PLO twenty billion dollars
> and publicly admits guilt of theft of land, and the UN gives Namibia
> to the PLO (that might satisfy the Palestinianns--now all we have
> to worry about are the Namibians, and where the twenty billion comes
> from!).
Great idea! As for the $20B, that's easy. Uncle Sam always foots the
bill (it's a measly sum compared to peace in the middle east).
As for the Namibians, how about settling them in Uganda?
:-)
|
| 757.31 | "banned from any kind of contact with Palestinians" | ERICG::ERICG | Eric Goldstein | Mon Aug 28 1989 02:19 | 9 |
| .28> ... An example is the PEACE NOW movement which is demanding that
.28> the oppression in the occupied territories be stopped. Unfortunately,
.28> they have even been banned by the military administration from making
.28> any kind of contact with the Palestinians.
The second sentence is incorrect. A friend of mine, here in Jerusalem,
is active in various left-wing groups. (I think that she actually may be
somewhat to the left of Peace Now.) The activities that she participates
in include meetings with Palestinians.
|
| 757.32 | Cyprus is the key | MOSSAD::GREG | I'd rather be home in Hawaii... | Mon Aug 28 1989 06:27 | 5 |
| A much better idea perhaps would be send the Turkish Cypriots back to where
they say they belong to (Turkey), send the Greeks Cypriots back to where
they want to belong to (Greece) and give Cyprus to the Palestinians. That
way we cure two problems. Then we can go back and blame the rest of the
33 other inter-Arab wars and squabbles on Israel and begin again
|
| 757.33 | Not peaceful existence, colonial legacy. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Mon Aug 28 1989 14:07 | 36 |
| RE: <757.29>
> Forgive my pessimism, but wasn't Lebanon founded upon the premise of
> peaceful coexistence between Moslems and Christians?
Lebanon was not found upon the premise of peaceful coexistence at all!
It was a legacy left by the French in the waning days of their
colonialism in the Middle East in the first half of the century.
France won Syria as a result of the secret 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement,
and a mandate from the (now defunct) League of Nations. The Maronite
Christians at that time were restricted to the Mountain region of
Lebanon, which by itself was a waek and poor version of Lebanon to
which the Maronites aspired. The French carved out the old
Phoenician towns of Sidon, Tyre, Tripoli, Bekaa, and Akkar (some of
which traditionally belonged to Syria) for the Maronites, and on Sept.
1, 1920, General Henri Gouraud, grandly declared in the name of France
the State of Greater Lebanon, raising the flag of Lebanon, - the symbol
of the Maronites. The population of annexed territories was
overwhelmingly Muslim, largely Sunni in north, and Shiite in south.
This resulted in about 50% population each of Christians and Muslims at
that time.
The National Pact, an informal agreement negotiated after the political
crisis when France fell to Germany in 1940, guaranteed the Christians
a dominant role in the government, with special preserves of political
power and patronage. The most ignored ethnic group were the Shiites!
Within its borders was a Muslim minority which felt threatened by the
political, cultural, and economic dominaton of a bare Christian majority.
Greater Lebanon was largely the result of confluence of European
interests in the Middle East, and the search of a minority's search of a
foreign protector, as has happened in the case of Israel.
This can not be termed peaceful co-existence. This is what has come
to haunt Lebanon, just as it is haunting Israel.
|
| 757.34 | | TOOK::J_RUBY | | Fri Sep 01 1989 18:09 | 9 |
|
re 757.33
> Greater Lebanon was largely the result of confluence of European
> interests in the Middle East, and the search of a minority's search of a
> foreign protector, as has happened in the case of Israel.
I don't understand how Israel is similar to Lebanon. Please explain.
|
| 757.35 | The Lebanon case. | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue Sep 05 1989 06:39 | 13 |
| Lebanon's main mistake was to decide that they didn't need an efficient
army. The moslem-christian coexistence actually was pretty peaceful and
brought prosperity for all (remember "Switzerland of the Middle
East"?).
But, as always, what happens to a military vacuum? It gets filled. In
that case by foreigners. Had they had a strong army, things might look
different. Israel _does_ have a strong army. I think it's worth the
risk and try to at least start talking with the West Bank Palestinians.
Remindingly yours,
Chris
|
| 757.36 | European interests and foreign protection. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Tue Sep 05 1989 14:40 | 16 |
|
RE: 757.34
> I don't understand how Israel is similar to Lebanon. Please explain.
Points 1, 2, 3, and 4 in 757.1 clearly indicated that there were only
tens of thousands of Jews in Palestine surrounded all around by millions
of Arabs. This was coupled with the fact that the European interests
(and that of Americans) weren't served by creating a Jewish state in
their backyard despite the fact that it was the Nazis who repressed
Jews, not the Arabs. Palestine being a colony of the British, they
decided to partition it making refugees out of millions of Palestinians.
Once that happened, Israel, by itself, would not have been able to exist
without foreign protection.
|
| 757.37 | Peaceful coexistence means every one shares in prosperity. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Tue Sep 05 1989 14:48 | 22 |
| > The moslem-christian coexistence actually was pretty peaceful and
> brought prosperity for all (remember "Switzerland of the Middle
> East"?).
That is not true at all, just an illusion. What do you think Lebanon's
per capita income is (or has been)? The prosperity did not filter
through to common Lebanese, particularly in the areas away from the
central region, where there is abject poverty. There wasn't even a
transportation system to carry the produce from the the poverty-striken
areas of the south to the central part of the country. Read about it all
in "LEBANON: Death of a Nation" by Sandra Mackey.
> Israel _does_ have a strong army. I think it's worth the
> risk and try to at least start talking with the West Bank Palestinians.
I agree about starting talks!!! As is clear for the past 17 months, JUST
having a strong army is not sufficient to bring peace to Israel, no matter
how iron-fisted the oppression is. "Lebanonization" (atleast that's the
word used by the Boston Globe of Sunday, Aug. 27, '89) of the occupied
territories has already started; this is unfortunate both for the
Palestinians and the Israelis.
|
| 757.38 | DAYS OF RAGE: The young Palestinians. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Tue Sep 05 1989 14:51 | 7 |
|
D A Y S O F R A G E:
The young Palestinians
Documentary on intifada, to be broadcast on Wednesday, Sept. 6, 1989,
at 9:00 PM, by PBS stations. Channel 2 (WGBH) in Boston.
|
| 757.39 | Propaganda | LEAF::GOLDBERG | | Tue Sep 05 1989 16:27 | 2 |
| As we all know by this time, the so-called "documentary" Days of Rage
was financed and produced by an Arab group.
|
| 757.40 | Who's a refugee or a Palestinian, anyway? And since when? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Wed Sep 06 1989 07:14 | 57 |
|
o The number of Arabs who left the part of the Palestine that became
Israel was about 420,000 -- not 1 million, or 1.5 million, or 2
million as is widely claimed.
It is a question of arithmetic. Official British estimates put the
pre-war (pre-1948) Arab population in the area as 561,000. When the
war ended in 1949, about 140,000 Arabs remained. The difference
comes to 421,000. (It was not long after that Arab spokesmen began
doubling, tripling, and even quintupling that figure.)
A reason for the inflation of the statistics was the fact that the
U. N. began to provide the refugees with food, clothing, shelter,
and medical attention. Tens of thousands of Arabs from various
countries registered as refugees to receive rations. By the end of
1948, the U. N. was reporting 750,000 Arabs on its rolls. By
mid-1949, the figure had risen to 1 million (twice the total
pre-1948 Arab population of what's now Israel)!
o The U. N. Relief and Works Administration (UNRWA) bowed to
pressures from both Jordan and Egypt to count - and provide
assistance to -- all needy Arabs, whether they were refugees or not.
In 1950, the director of UNRWA reported that "births are always
registered for ration purposes, but deaths are often, if not
usually, concealed so that the family may continue to collect
rations for the deceased." In 1959, the UNRWA director conceded
that, in Jordan alone, ration lists included 150,000 ineligibles and
persons who have died."
The 1973 UNRWA report sets the number of Arab refugees at 1,540,694.
While it is true that children and even grandchildren had been born
to the original 1948 refugees, the exaggeration of the official UN
figure is self evident.
The 1973 UN total included an estimated 500,000 Arabs who were never
refugees, but rather, pre-1948 residents of the West Bank and the
Gaza strip. It included some 85,000 refugees who have made new
lives for themselves in Syria, 80,000 self-supporting in Jordan,
60,000 no longer living as refugees in Lebanon. It included an
estimated 125,000 whose deaths since 1948 were never recorded. It
included some 125,000 who have been resettled and made new lives for
themselves in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
o The Six-Day war produced some more refugees. UNRWA put the figure
at about 525,000 -- including about 175,000 "old" refugees from the
1948 war. Another 100,000 had lived in the Golan Heights; this
group was deliberately evacuated by the Syrians before the Yom
Kippur attack. If anyone made them refugees, it was Syria.
No one can say with authority exactly who should be classified as
refugees today, or how many there are. What does appear reasonably
certain is that about 600,000 Arabs in all were displaced in the course
of two wars, neither of them sought by Israel. (By the way, that figure
is almost equivalent to the number of Jews from Arab lands accepted into
Israel.)
|
| 757.41 | | TOOK::J_RUBY | | Wed Sep 06 1989 11:58 | 44 |
| re: 757.36
Well, I am depressed. I thought on reading your last few entries that we were
dealing with someone with some idea of what he was talking about; that was
before I read 757.1, of course.
1. I rather agreed with your comparison of the Jews in Israel to the
Maronites in Lebanon; that's why I replied to your note. The comparison should,
in my opinion, have been extended to the Kurds in Iraq, to the attacks on
Assyrians in Iraq in the 20's, to the mass migration of Armenians from the
Middle East to Soviet Armenia in the 20's, to the expulsion of the Greeks from
Egypt by Nasser, and to the destruction of the Jewish communities in North
Africa and the Middle East in the 50's and 60's. In my opinion, it is no
accident that Jews in the Middle East have had alliances with other national
minorities, a military alliance with Druse going back to the 20's, with the
Circassians, with the Maronites in Lebanon and the Kurds in Iraq. Nor do I
think it an accident that Bedouin join the Israeli army. I strongly suspect
that the attacks on a Jewish state are part and parcel of the attacks on all
national minorities through out the Middle East.
2. What struck me as curious was your talk about a "foreign protector". This
is an interesting term. You clearly do not mean military aid, since, as was
pointed out earlier in this note, Syria now, and Egypt formerly, are
dependent upon Soviet military and economic aid for their warmaking
capability. The Soviets have even admitted that Russian troops fought and died
in Egypt during the War of Attrition in the mid-seventies. Yet you do not
say that these countries had "foreign protectors". Who are these foreign
protectors, of what does this protection consist, how does it differ from the
aid given Egypt or Syria by the Soviet Union?
3. Britain most certainly did not decide to create a Jewish state in the
Middle East. The United Kingdom first limited and then forbade Jewish
immigration to Palestine during the 30's. During the Second World War the
British torpedoed the "Blood for Trucks" deal worked out with Eichmann,
after the war they forbade the immigration of Jewish refugees to Palestine,
interning refugees in concentration camps on Cyprus. These facts are
notorious. The United Kingdom did not vote for partition in the U.N., it
abstained. This fact is a matter of public record, as are the British White
Papers on Palestine. During the first part of the war in 1948, England
supplied the armies of Egypt and Jordan, the Arab Legion having been trained
and equipped by England. English support to the Arab armies, while they were
at war with Israel, was only ended when the United States threatened to cut
off Marshall Plan aid to England.
|
| 757.42 | who is minority | BOSHOG::YOUSEF | | Thu Sep 07 1989 16:41 | 66 |
|
re: 757.41
>1. I rather agreed with your comparison of the Jews in Israel to the
>Maronites in Lebanon; that's why I replied to your note. The comparison should,
>in my opinion, have been extended to the Kurds in Iraq, to the attacks on
>Assyrians in Iraq in the 20's, to the mass migration of Armenians from the
>Middle East to Soviet Armenia in the 20's, to the expulsion of the Greeks from
>Egypt by Nasser, and to the destruction of the Jewish communities in North
>Africa and the Middle East in the 50's and 60's. In my opinion, it is no
>accident that Jews in the Middle East have had alliances with other national
>minorities, a military alliance with Druse going back to the 20's, with the
>Circassians, with the Maronites in Lebanon and the Kurds in Iraq. Nor do I
>think it an accident that Bedouin join the Israeli army. I strongly suspect
>that the attacks on a Jewish state are part and parcel of the attacks on all
>national minorities through out the Middle East.
What is the definition of a minority ?. is it a minority in reference
to a specific country or to the Middle East
1. If you meant a minority in reference to the Middle East, then
you should have mentioned the Palestians as a minority. They
have been singled out and mistreated: by the Jordanians since 1948,
by the Syrians in Syria as well as in Lebanon when they sided with the
Maronites and shiites against palestinians Tal-Zatar refugee camp,
and by the Israelis too when they singly and jointly with Maronites
have massacred thousands of Palestinians in Sabra and Shattila refugee
camps.
2. If you meant a minority in reference to a country then the Jews are
no minority in Israel. In the contrary the Palestinians are the
minority in Israel and no one denies the fact that they are mistreated:
kicked out of their lands, their homes demolishing , The Israeli
army breaking their bones, shooting at children, an 8 month old baby
got shot in the eye, thousands of detainees in Israeli prisons, shutting
down schools and colleges for two years. The fact as some Israelis say
nowadays " IT'S UNFORTUNATE TO BE A PALESTINIAN IN ISRAEL".
Now, the suffering of the Maronites, Kurds, Assyrians and Armenians
is unfortunate. Palestinians know that very well. Should these
groups side with Israelis ? No,if anything they should side with the
Palestinians. We share a common cause called SUFFERING and OPPRESSION
The Israeli might want to side with the Syrian government, and there
are a lot of commonolities between them. The Alaweites Rulers of
Syria, killed more that 10 thousands in their city Hama 9 years ago.
The Beduins, sure they serve in the Israeli army, why not, they
also serve in the Jordanian army, the most faithful to the Hashimite
government.
The Beduins are known through history to side with whoever has
the upper hand and power, and pay well for their services.
Druse are the same as Beduins, they serve in the Israeli army as well
as in the Syrian Army .
The Maronites are also sided with the Iraqis in their battles
with the Syrians.
So the story goes, the one who steels the rule oppress and infict
most suffering on the others to stay in power. Israel is practicing
what the Nazis did to the Jews, over the Palastinians. What do you
call giving special Identification Cards and markers to the
Palastinians if not discrimination against them on an ethnic bases.
|
| 757.43 | Response to -1 | LEAF::GOLDBERG | | Thu Sep 07 1989 17:12 | 38 |
| <<< GVRIEL::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
-< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 757.42 Terrorism? Who's terrorist and who's victim? 42 of 42
BOSHOG::YOUSEF 66 lines 7-SEP-1989 15:41
-< who is minority >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> and by the Israelis too when they singly and jointly with Maronites
> have massacred thousands of Palestinians in Sabra and Shattila refugee
> camps.
The Israelis massacred no one in Sabra and Shattila. Maybe you don't
like the idea that that is the truth, but it is the truth.
> 2. If you meant a minority in reference to a country then the Jews are
> no minority in Israel. In the contrary the Palestinians are the
> minority in Israel and no one denies the fact that they are mistreated:
> kicked out of their lands, their homes demolishing , The Israeli
> army breaking their bones, shooting at children, an 8 month old baby
> got shot in the eye, thousands of detainees in Israeli prisons, shutting
> down schools and colleges for two years. The fact as some Israelis say
> nowadays " IT'S UNFORTUNATE TO BE A PALESTINIAN IN ISRAEL".
In Israel there are Israelis, Jew and Arab. There are no Palestinians
in Israel except those who come to work there. The Arab minority in
Israel is not mistreated. The Israeli army is not "breaking
bones and shooting at children..." etc in Israel. The actions you
describe take place in the territories and are in response to the
so-called intifada which is getting you nowhere.
>Israel is practicing
> what the Nazis did to the Jews, over the Palastinians. What do you
call giving special Identification Cards and markers to the
Palastinians if not discrimination against them on an ethnic bases.
You obviously know nothing of what the Nazis did to the Jews.
|
| 757.44 | With A Little Help From Your Friends | FDCV01::ROSS | | Fri Sep 08 1989 10:37 | 14 |
| Lately, we have been hearing of more and more executions of
Palestinians - by fellow Palestinians - in the territories.
The executees, if you will, are being killed because of their
so-called "collaboration" (probably means that they refuse to
throw rocks) with the Israeli authorities.
As the infitadah drags on, with no tangible results evident to
the Palestinians, the reports say they're turning upon themselves
in frustration.
Too bad.
Alan
|
| 757.45 | I'm losing hope | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Fri Sep 08 1989 10:39 | 21 |
| re. the last two:
If not even two colleagues in DEC can argue reasonably whilst using
their _own_ ideas and brains rather than stereotypically repeating
Arafat's and Shamir's totally content free and counterproductive
slogans, how do you want a solution to be found for the West Bank?
What's the purpose of your discussions? Showing each other what
a cruel bozo he/she is? All it will do is 1) bring you nowhere,
and 2) just intensify animosities and 3) consolidate prejudices.
OK, fine, go ahead, keep going with beating each other up.
Another possibility, though, would be an exercise in self-critique. Or
are you really thinking that Israelis and Palestinians are respectively
totally free of guilt in this case? In case you shouldn't know,
this is NOT how the outside world views it.
Hopelessly yours,
Chris
|
| 757.46 | Slow fingers | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Fri Sep 08 1989 10:41 | 1 |
| Sorry, .44 interfered.
|
| 757.47 | Love Those Americans! | ABE::STARIN | Attention on deck! | Fri Sep 08 1989 11:00 | 12 |
| Recently the US evacuated the staff from its embassy in Beirut after
Lebanese Christians surrounded it. There was a US gunship overhead during
the evacuation just in case any of the "surrounders" got an itchy
trigger finger.
Apparently the Lebanese Christians were unhappy with US "support"
of Syria and so decided to force the issue - by taking hostages
perhaps?
Silly me, thinking all the time we were supporting Israel!
Mark
|
| 757.48 | Reply to .45 | LEAF::GOLDBERG | | Fri Sep 08 1989 11:47 | 33 |
| <<< GVRIEL::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
-< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 757.45 Terrorism? Who's terrorist and who's victim? 45 of 47
SUTRA::LEHKY "I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool." 21 lines 8-SEP-1989 09:39
-< I'm losing hope >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If not even two colleagues in DEC can argue reasonably whilst using
> their _own_ ideas and brains rather than stereotypically repeating
> Arafat's and Shamir's totally content free and counterproductive
> slogans, how do you want a solution to be found for the West Bank?
Could you please point out where, in either or the two notes you
refer to, where "Shamir's totally content free and couterproductive
slogans ..." were repeated?
> Another possibility, though, would be an exercise in self-critique. Or
> are you really thinking that Israelis and Palestinians are respectively
> totally free of guilt in this case? In case you shouldn't know,
> this is NOT how the outside world views it.
Ah, the voice of sweet reason ... where guilt is spread around.
Consider the possibility that the Palestinians are fighting the wrong
enemy. These people have suffered, are suffering, and will continue
to suffer because they have been kept in camps in Egypt, in Lebanon, in Syria,
in Jordan, and generally, have been stoked like a furnace for two
generations by those nations that refuse to make peace with Israel
... a peace that would end their suffering.
Consider also the possibility of Israel's enormous mistake of not
supporting these people in 1970 when they rose up against the
Hashemite.
|
| 757.49 | So, what do you suggest? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Mon Sep 11 1989 10:24 | 16 |
| That's asking for it....
My original intent was to reply the following:
There's two people who get beaten on their head in the Middle East.
The Jews and the Palestinians. And they get beaten by the same parties.
Why they don't try to find a commonly supported solution to stop
this, remains a mystery to me.
If you knew me, you'd know I'm about everything but sweet.
So, where's yours and Yussuf's proposal on how to solve the issue?
Waitingly yours,
Chris
|
| 757.50 | Some choose to remain silient for apparent reasons. | WMOIS::SAADEH | Will there ever be peace over there | Tue Sep 12 1989 10:56 | 46 |
| The reply is being entered for a friend who chooses to remain anonymous.
-Sultan
> The Israelis massacred no one in Sabra and Shattila. Maybe you don't
> like the idea that that is the truth, but it is the truth.
Maybe the massacre of the Palestinians was just a coincident
as the Israelis "iron fist" entered Beirut and surrounded
the refugee camps. Or maybe the Israelis are not
responsible about the massacre of Dir-Yassin village in
1948.
> In Israel there are Israelis, Jew and Arab. There are no Palestinians
> in Israel except those who come to work there. The Arab minority in
> Israel is not mistreated. The Israeli army is not "breaking
> bones and shooting at children..." etc in Israel. The actions you
> describe take place in the territories and are in response to the
> so-called intifada which is getting you nowhere.
Thanks, for admitting the mistreatment of the Palestinians
in West Bank, because they are fighting for their freedom.
Unfortunately, the price they are paying is too high, death,
and breaking body organs. As you say, it's getting them
nowhere, Maybe death to them is better than being humiliated
every day under the military occupation. I agree with you,
there is Israel and there is West-Bank. So, what are the
Israelis are doing in West Bank, just building more
settlements, annexation of the territories, East Jerusalem
what do you call the Palestinians in East Jerusalem,
Israelis or Palestinians, maybe there are no body. In
either way you consider them, they are mistreated.
> You obviously know nothing of what the Nazis did to the Jews.
You are wrong, we all know what happened to the Jews by the
Nazis. It's sad, in fact words can't describe the horror.
But, what do you call burying a group of Palestinians alive
by the Israeli bulldozers, or the use of Cluster bombs
dropped from fighter jets on Palestinian refugee camps in
Lebanon, the torture until death to Palestinian
prisoners....
|
| 757.51 | Response to .50 | LEAF::GOLDBERG | | Tue Sep 12 1989 12:14 | 88 |
|
The saddest thing about .50 is the fact that the author chooses
to remain anonymous, coupled with the tile "Some choose to remain
silent for apparent reasons."
It is as if people on the net are afraid of speaking out, like the
remnants of the Jewish communities in Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq.
But noters are not threatened with death; only with some opposing
views. So why do you hide?
Now to business.
<<< GVRIEL::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
-< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 757.50 Terrorism? Who's terrorist and who's victim? 50 of 50
WMOIS::SAADEH "Will there ever be peace over there" 46 lines 12-SEP-1989 09:56
-< Some choose to remain silient for apparent reasons. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reply is being entered for a friend who chooses to remain anonymous.
-Sultan
>> The Israelis massacred no one in Sabra and Shattila. Maybe you don't
>> like the idea that that is the truth, but it is the truth.
> Maybe the massacre of the Palestinians was just a coincident
> as the Israelis "iron fist" entered Beirut and surrounded
> the refugee camps. Or maybe the Israelis are not
> responsible about the massacre of Dir-Yassin village in
> 1948.
There is some debate as to what actually happened at Dir-Yassin. There is
little debate as to what happened to the Jewish community in Nablus in
1929. But the issue was Sabra and Shattila. Why do you refuse to put
the blame where it belongs?
>> In Israel there are Israelis, Jew and Arab. There are no Palestinians
>> in Israel except those who come to work there. The Arab minority in
>> Israel is not mistreated. The Israeli army is not "breaking
>> bones and shooting at children..." etc in Israel. The actions you
>> describe take place in the territories and are in response to the
>> so-called intifada which is getting you nowhere.
> Thanks, for admitting the mistreatment of the Palestinians
> in West Bank, because they are fighting for their freedom.
> Unfortunately, the price they are paying is too high, death,
> and breaking body organs. As you say, it's getting them
> nowhere, Maybe death to them is better than being humiliated
> every day under the military occupation. I agree with you,
> there is Israel and there is West-Bank. So, what are the
> Israelis are doing in West Bank, just building more
> settlements, annexation of the territories, East Jerusalem
> what do you call the Palestinians in East Jerusalem,
> Israelis or Palestinians, maybe there are no body. In
> either way you consider them, they are mistreated.
Nowhere in my response to I admit "mistreatment" of the Palestinians
in the West Bank. The people there have chosen to take certain risks.
In war you can get killed. And if death to them is better than being
humiliated under the military occupation, how was it during the
military occupation by Jordan, 1948-1967?
> > You obviously know nothing of what the Nazis did to the Jews.
> You are wrong, we all know what happened to the Jews by the
> Nazis. It's sad, in fact words can't describe the horror.
> But, what do you call burying a group of Palestinians alive
> by the Israeli bulldozers, or the use of Cluster bombs
> dropped from fighter jets on Palestinian refugee camps in
> Lebanon, the torture until death to Palestinian
> prisoners....
I call burying a group of Palestinians alive insanity. And I can
understand people being driven insane. But this has nothing to do
with the Nazis and the Jews. In the latter circumstance, the
liquidation of an entire people was coldly planned and executed. Any
attempt to draw parellels between the two situations is either
confused or malicious. Incidentally, do PLO "fighters" take refuge
in the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon? Why don't the people
there kick them out? As for "torture until death to Palestinian
prisoners.." I suppose you have some proof that would stand up in
an impartial court.
|
| 757.52 | 757 is getting nowhere | JACKAL::COHEN | | Thu Sep 14 1989 14:09 | 19 |
| Well, old note #757 has grown to 51 replies, and after scanning
through them I dont see any of the pro-Palestinians accepting
Israel, nor have I noted any of the pro-Israel folks willing
to turn over Israel to Syria.
If I might toss my two cents worth in, (I did in 757.24) this
note is getting nowhere. My outlook on giving up the West Bank
is NEVER.
I do have two concerns though. One is we all work for the same
company, and sooner or later we are all going to have to work
together. Some hostility is present, that could result in
someones career being de-railed a year down the road. The
other concern (maybe I'm a pessimist) is that someone in
the mideast is going to do something so horrible, that this
whole discussion will be moot point. May that never happen.
shalom,
Ron
|
| 757.53 | What Arab group? Do they own PBS? | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Thu Oct 05 1989 14:09 | 8 |
| RE: 757.39
>> As we all know by this time, the so-called "documentary" Days of Rage
>> was financed and produced by an Arab group.
No, I didn't know that! What Arab group was it, and how much did they
pay for it? Can any one just finance and produce a documentary, and
just show on PBS at their whim?
|
| 757.54 | Palestinian casualties for August 1989. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Thu Oct 05 1989 14:11 | 123 |
| PALESTINIAN CASUALTIES FOR AUGUST 1989
======================================
Dead 14
- Plastic-covered metal bullets (which army
claims are less lethal than normal
bullets) 4
- Beating 1
- Live ammunition or the regular M-16 bullets 9
Wounded 705
- Plastic-covered metal bullets 366
- Rubber bullets 45
- Live ammunition 294
Beaten 1074
Incapacitated by army's tear gas (made in 243
Pennsylvania)
[The figures are for the month of August compiled by the information
of the UN Relief Agency, as published in the Boston Globe, Oct. 2,
'89. They tell a sorrowful story. Other excerpts from the
article...]
"Living in Gaza, the visitor feels sealed off, is if Jerusalem, only
an hour away, was another planet. And the West Bank, with its
haunting landscape and ancient ghosts, is a different, richer world.
Gaza, a tiny coastal area no more than 5 miles wide and about 28
miles long, is only beautiful to some of the 650,000 people who live
there. There are eight refugee camps with a registered population
of 446,000, mostly dependent on the United Nations Relief and Works
Agency for their housing, schools, health care clinics ..."
"Because the old class distinctions in Gaza have been softened if
not entirely erased, because so many families have known the same
suffering, because no one is exempt from the punishment or the
displeasure of the authorities. Gazans are united in disaster.
They have one skin. What the Israelis must exstinguish, of course,
is not the hatred they have aroused but the deep love the Gazans
feel. It is for the PLO and their invisible, Palestine."
"It has already been written that while the Israelis are not the
cruelest army, they specialize in humiliation ..."
"Last month in Gaza an American passed by the compound of the
central jail in a taxi but stopped when she saw a group of middle-
aged Palestinian women clustered on a sidewalk, crying and calling
out.
"A truck passed filled with soldiers and their captives, blindfolded
Palestenians whose hair and thin necks showed they were still
adolescents. The women called out to their sons, but this only
elated the Israeli soldiers who clapped to show their pleasure in
having prisoners. One soldier even made an obscene gesture with a
finger, a more shocking offense in a Muslim society than in our own.
The women kept crying and calling to their children even when the
truck disappeared and the American, hoping to keep them from harm,
stood with the group a minute.
"The women were middle-aged, their bodies shaped like old pillows.
In their long, black skirts and cheap sandals, their hair covered
by white scarves, they did not look like a threatening bunch. But
still six Israeli soldiers, bareheaded and armed, came racing out
of the prison compound right toward them. The American told the
women to start running when she first saw the soldiers, and the
women scurried off, too slow in those skirts and sandals...
"A red-haired officer spoke to the American but the troops went
ahead to find the women. The men did not carry the clubs used so
often by Israeli in beatings, but their other method is to knock
people down and then kick. The American had seen enough of the
huge, awful bruises on the legs and stomachs of women in their
50s and 60s to know what could happen that Saturday and how few
Palestinians are spared.
"As in any Islamic society, it is prohibited - and unthinkable -
for any male to be present when a woman is in labor or gives
birth. But that happened in Khan Yunis - a refugee camp and small
town in Gaza Strip - at the UN clinic for women and children. It
was after midnight on Aug. 1. Four women, who had just delivered,
were asleep in a ward, the swaddled infants in cribs covered with
mosquito netting. A one-story walled building, the clinic was
quiet except for one woman in labor, making noise in a room by
herself. There were two midwives on duty. It was Fatimah, a
30-year-old midwife who has worked for seven years in this clinic...
"Fatimah frowned as she recalled how the Israeli soldiers rushed in,
but she maintained her professional composure.
""I was really shocked, but I tried to protect the women in bed who
were so agitated. The soldiers searched everywhere, in the closets,
under the beds. I asked one of them, 'What is it you want?' He
just looked at me. A lot of them went into the delivery room. They
kept kicking down the doors.
""The woman who was in labor was undressed and she had been screaming
but when she saw those men, the soldiers, she grew frenzied and
screamed more and more. At that moment I was terrified because I
was so afraid for her. It was her baby, too.
""The soldiers ordered us not to move or speak. They were laughing
when they left here. They went into all the rooms, knocking in the
doors. The noise! They wanted to know if there were any boys -
boys here - and they kept searching all the rooms.
""I tried to call for help, and I was astonished to find the telephone
line was cut."
"The night watchman was arrested by the soldiers, and two weeks later
it was not known where the man was being held.
"There are crueler stories from Gaza, hundreds of them, but Israelis
already know the worst. There was coverage in their own press and on
television in February 1988, of attempts by soldiers to bury alive
the four Palestinians they had severely beaten in the West Bank village
Salim. An army bulldozer covered the unconscious men with dirt, but
villagers later excavated them. Therew ere shocked reactions, and
the comments of one Israeli stay glued in memory. He said, "Israelis
have a certain kind of ideal of the Israeli soldier that he will handle
himself with decency. These are the kinds of things that other enemies
do - the French in Algeria, the American in Vietnam."
|
| 757.55 | "Facts" and "Journalism" | TALLIS::GOYKHMAN | Nostalgia ain't what it used to be | Thu Oct 05 1989 17:13 | 6 |
| That article struck me as one of the most one-sided,
emotionally-laden pieces of reporting from the Middle East that I'd
ever seen! Read it for yourselves, it's notable not for what it
includes, but what it omits.
DG
|
| 757.56 | A Missing Category? | FDCV01::ROSS | | Thu Oct 05 1989 17:53 | 8 |
| I noticed the article did not have the category:
Palestinians killing Palestinians (by whatever choice of weapons)
for "collaborating".
Or was October a quiet month?
Alan
|
| 757.57 | The real source of the Intifada. | SUBWAY::STEINBERG | | Thu Oct 05 1989 18:27 | 242 |
|
The following is a small collection of quotations from the Prophet Muhammad,
the Quran, and some Muslim theologians which shed a great deal of light on
Mr. Ashraf's arguments. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Thanks to Don Feinberg.
1 HADITH
"The resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslim will war
with the Jews and the Muslim will kill them; ... the trees and the
rocks will say, "O Muslim, O Abdullah, here is a Jew behind me, come
and kill him."
This is a _Hadith_ of the Prophet Muhammad [a statement attributed to
the Prophet Muhammad].
Source: Prof. Y. Harkabi, "The Arab Position in the Arab-Israeli
Conflict" (Tel-Aviv, 1968), p. 250. Cited in M. Ma'oz, "The Image of
the Jew in Official Arab Literature and Communications Media" (Hebrew
University, 1976), p.14
His Eminence, Sheikh Nadim Al-Jisr, Member of the Islamic Research
Academy, cites several more versions of the _hadith_ in his
presentation at the Fourth Conference of the Academy. "Good Tidings
About the Decisive Battle Between Muslims and Israel, In the Light of
the Holy Quran, the Prophetic Traditions, and the Fundamental Laws of
Nature and History"
"In Muslims's Sahih, is reported on the authority of Ibn'Umar that the
Prophet (P. B. U. H.) had said, 'Verily, you will combat against the
Jews, so carry throught the fight until a stone would say: Muslim
This is a Jew; come along and smite him down.'
"In another version of the _hadith_, reported also on the authority of
Ibn'Umar that the Prophet - P. B. U. H. - had said, 'The Jews will
combat against you. But you will be given power over them, until the
stone would say: "O Muslim! This is a Jew lying behind me; come and
do away with him."'
"In a third version ... on the authority of Abu Huraira ... 'The Hour
would never rise until Muslims fight against the Jews. Muslims would
despatch them. The Jews would hide themselves behind trees which would
say: "O Muslim Servand of God! There are Jews behind me, come and
kill them."'
"In Bukhari's Sahih .. on the authority of Abdullah Ibm'Umar ... you
will take up arms against the Jews, until one of them would lie
Page 2
concealed behind a stone which would say, 'O Muslim, Sevant of God!
There is a Jew lying behind me; come and kill him.'"
"It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Prophet ...
has said, "The Hour would not come, until you fight agains the Jews;
and the stone would say, "O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; come and
kill him."'
D. F. Green notes: "'The Hour' is the resurrection, i. e., the
final salvation. Its arrival is made conditional upon the battle
against the Jews that has to preceede it." (Green, "Arab Theologians",
p.45)
2 QURAN
"Ignominy shall be their portion [the Jews'] wheresoever they are
found. ... They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness
is laid upon them. ... because they ... disbelieve the revelations
of Allah and slew the Prophets wrongfully. ... because they were
rebellious and used to transgress."
[Surah III, v.112; "The Meaning of the Glorious Koran", an explanatory
translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall (New York, Mentor Books,
1953). Also from "The Koran", translated with notes by N. J. Dawood
(England; Penguin Books, revised edition, 1981).]
"And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind. ..."
[Surah II, v.96]
"Evil is that for which they sell their souls. ...For disbelievers, it
is a terrible doom."
[Surah II, v.90]
"Taste ye [Jews] the punishment of burning."
[Surah III, v.181, referring to the Jews of Medina. Two examples of
the frequent variation on this theme in the Koran:
Surah IX, v.35: "Proclaim a woeful punishment to those that hoard
up gold and silver ... Their treasures shall be heated in the
fires of Hell, and their foreheads, sides, and backs branded with
them ... 'Taste them the punishment that is your due.'"
Surah III, v.117-120: "They [the Jews] are the heirs of Hell ...
They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but
your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say ... When evil
Page 3
befalls you, they rejoice."
"Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the
fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for
fresh skins that they may taste the torment."
[Surah IV, v.56]
Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews, ... And of their taking usury
... and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretenses. We
have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom."
[Surah IV, v.160-161]
"Allah has cursed them [the Jews] for their disbelief."
[Surah IV, v.46]
"They [the Jews] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire
nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but
more violent is the hatred that their breasts conceal."
[Surah III, v.117-120, Dawood trans.]
"In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you."
[Surah IV, v.101, Pickthall trans.]
"And thou seest [Jews and Christians] vying with one another in sin and
transgression and their devouring of illicit gain. Verily evil is what
they do. Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their
evilspeaking and their devouring of illicit gain? ... evil is their
handiwork."
[Surah V, v.62-63]
"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends."
[Surah V, v.51]
"The most vehement in mankind [are] the Jews and idolators." [Surah V,
v.82]
Page 4
"Fight against such of those [Jews and Christians] ... until they pay
for the tribute readily, being brought low." [Surah IX, v.29]
"Allah fighteth against them [the Jews]. How perverse they are."
[Surah IX, v.30]
"Believers, many are the rabbis and the monks who defraud men of their
possessions. ... Proclaim a woeful punishment to those that hoard up
gold and silver and do not spend it in Allah's cause. ... their
treasures shall be heated in the fire of Hell. ..."
[Surah IX, v.26-34, Dawood trans.]
"They [the Jews] spread evil in the land."
[Surah V, v.62-66]
[The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know nothing except
lies ... commit evil and become engrossed in sin."
[Surah II, v. 71-85]
3 THEOLOGIANS
Introductory remarks from the Fourth Conference of Islamic Research, Cairo,
Spetember, 1968, "Arab Theologians on Jews and Israel":
. I welcome you in the name of Islam which gathered you under the banner
of righteousness and good ... as active prominent scholars, and to
reinforce through you brotherhood in religion. [Dr. Muahmud
Hubballah, Secretary General of the Islamic Research Academy]
[Comment: The original transctips of this conference were published
several times. In the original English publication (one volume, 935
pages, with no copyright), on the opening page it is stated that the
book was printed by the U. A. R. Government Printing Office, which
signifies government support.]
From the proceedings:
. The Jews ... had resorted to their former policy and thus they
deserved to be called, the worst of beast in the Quran ...
They are characterized by avarice and many other vices ... [Sheikh Abd
Allah Al Moshad].
Page 5
. ... it behooves us to refer to the distortion of the Jewish creed that
filled the life of the Jews with perfidy and evil ...
Islamic tolerance is in complete contrast with Jewish intolerance and
cruelty ... I should like to say before I conclude that I have
thoroughly scrutinized the nature of the Jews. They are avaricious,
ruthless, cruel, hypocrite and revengeful. These traits govern their
lives. [Mohammed Taha Yahia]
. The Jew's wicked nature never changes ... Evil, wickedness, breach of
vows and money worship are inherent qualities in them. Many a time
they were punished for their evil, but they never repented or gave up
their sinfulness. [Kamal Ahman Own, Vice-Principal, Tanta Institute]
|
| 757.58 | Inflicting GRIEVOUS WRONG is reason for Intifada | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Fri Oct 06 1989 18:47 | 82 |
|
RE: 757.57
>> -< The real source of the Intifada. >-
It is very clear today what the real source of INTIFADA is. Early
on in the Zionist movement, even the Jews had fears that grievous
injustices will come to haunt one day. Here's a lesson from history
as reported in Frankfurter Zeitung.
An Austrian German Jew by the name of Leopold Weiss was on a visit to
Jerusalem towards the end of 1922 as a reporter for a German newspaper
the _Frankfurter Zeitung_. An informal meeting was in progress in the
home of a friend, with Dr. Chaim Weismann, the undisputed leader of
the Zionist movement at the helm of affairs. He was surrounded by his
young fans - Ben Gurion, Begin, and Dyan. The Doctor had the map of
Palestine on the table and was expostulating how it was to be carved
out as a Jewish State.
WHAT ABOUT THE ARABS?
The young Jewish journalist, seeing the utter disregard shown to the
Arab inhabitants of Palestine, and the injustice of planning to
uproot a lawfully settled community, was impelled to break through
the deferential hush with which all the budding Zionists were
listening to Dr. Weismann, and ask:
"'AND WHAT ABOUT THE ARABS?'..." (The young journalist continues
his report.)
"I must have committed a FAUX PAS by thus bringing a jarring note
into the conversation, for Dr. Weizmann turned his fact slowly
towards me, put down the cup he had been holding in his hand, and
repeated my question:
"'WHAT ABOUT THE ARABS...?'
"'Well - How can you ever hope to make Palestine your homeland in
the fact of the vehement opposition of the Arabs who, after all,
are in the majority in the country?'"
The Zionist leader shrugged his shoulders and answered dryly:
"'We expect they won't be in a majority after a few years.'
"'Perhaps so. You have been dealing with this problem for years and
must know the situation better than I do. But quite apart from the
political difficulties which Arab opposition may or may not put in
you way, DOES NOT THE MORAL ASPECT OF THE QUESTION EVER BOTHER YOU?
Don't you think that it is wrong on your part to displace the people
who have always lived in this country?'
"'But it is our country', replied Dr. Weizmann, raising his eyebrows.
'We are doing no more than taking back what we have been wrongly
deprived of.'
"How was it possible I wondered [Leopold Weiss continues] for people
endowed with so much creative intelligence as the Jews to think of
the Zionist-Arab conflict in Jewish terms alone?
"Did they not realize that the problem of the Jews in Palestine
could, in the long run, be solved only through friendly cooperation
with the Arabs?
"Were they so hopelessly blind to the PAINFUL FUTURE which there
policy must bring? To the STRUGGLES, the BITTERNESS and the HATRED
which the Jewish island, even if temporarily successful, would
forever remain exposed in the midst of a hostile Arab sea?
"And how strange, I thought, that a nation which had suffered so
many wrongs in the course of its long and sorrowful diaspora was
now, in single-minded pursuit of its own goal, ready to inflict a
GRIEVOUS WRONG on another nations - and a nation, too, THAT WAS
INNOCENT OF ALL THAT PAST JEWISH SUFFERING. [I was overcome with
emotion when I read this quote coming from a Jew so concerned
about inflicting a grievous wrong to another nation] Such a
phenomenon, I knew, was not unknown to history; but it made me,
none the less, very sad to see it enacted before my eyes."
[Capitalization is mine.]
Leopold Weiss was a real visionary, and a great Jew!!! Any one
with a conscience will agree with him.
|
| 757.59 | Abie Nathan convicted for talking to Palestinians. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Fri Oct 06 1989 18:54 | 11 |
|
Hats off to ABIE NATHAN, an Israeli, who was convicted for his "crime"
of talking to the Palestinians. He was sentenced to six months in
prison. My opinion is that his action was admirable, and he stood by
his principles.
Earlier notes discussed how peace activists are prevented from
talking to the Palestinians. Here's is a prime example. Israeli
government decides who the Israelis can talk to and who they can't.
Whether they be local Palestinians or exiled ones.
|
| 757.60 | Not quite that innocent | BOLT::MINOW | Pere Ubu is coming soon, are you ready? | Fri Oct 06 1989 22:42 | 7 |
| <<< Note 757.58 by OLDTMR::ASHRAF "Gone today, here tomorrow" >>>
> - and a nation, too, THAT WAS
>INNOCENT OF ALL THAT PAST JEWISH SUFFERING.
Hebron? Safad?
Martin.
|
| 757.61 | CHECK YOUR FACTS!! | TAVENG::GOLDMAN | | Sat Oct 07 1989 14:01 | 8 |
| RE: 757.59
>Hats off to ABIE NATHAN, an Israeli, who was convicted for his "crime"
>of talking to the Palestinians.
He was convicted of breaking a law which prohibits meetings
between OFFICIAL representatives of terrorist organizations
WITHOUT proper government APPROVAL. There is no law which
states that it is a crime to talk to Palestinians.
|
| 757.62 | How to explain the inexplicable? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Mon Oct 09 1989 10:11 | 19 |
| You can't understand Poldi Wei� if you aren't conscious of what
the Austro-judaic community was looking like btw. the 2 WW's.
I can't write 300+ pages to explain what I feel, but Austrian Jews
ALWAYS had a very self-criticising, liberal, open attitude (and
still have, mind you).
I can't accurately describe the coffee house culture either.
Just by the way, since I'm ignorant: are the Jew-Christian related
Koran quotes correct?
Furthermore, Poldi asked his questions in 1922. I think that after
1938-1945, he might have asked differently. But then, no. He was
Austrian.
Confusingly yours (I'm sure),
Chris
|
| 757.63 | Law is a means not an end. | OLDTMR::ASHRAF | Gone today, here tomorrow | Mon Oct 09 1989 15:02 | 31 |
| RE: 757.61
> He was convicted of breaking a law which prohibits meetings
> between OFFICIAL representatives of terrorist organizations
> WITHOUT proper government APPROVAL.
This gives the impression that law is something very sacred, no
matter how terrible it may be. This is topic for another
discussion.
It is ironic that Abie was prosecuted by the government of a
leader who himself can not go to Britain for fear of prosecution
as being the OFFICIAL representative of a terrorist
organization.
Anyway, this makes Abie Nathan's action more admirable that he
performed a _civil disobedience_ (reminds me of the civil rights
movement in this country).
The Israeli government has refused to meet with ANYONE that
Palestinians approve of, and Abbie's attempt is to change that.
Even the peace proposal put forward by the Egyptians was turned
down.
It is _very_ interesting that any genuine concerns or proposals
are given such labels as "self-criticizing", "liberal", etc. in
this conference. That is _exactly_ what is needed to get out of
the agony in the Middle East.
|
| 757.64 | Clear now?? | TAVENG::GOLDMAN | | Mon Oct 09 1989 16:15 | 15 |
| > <<< Note 757.63 by OLDTMR::ASHRAF "Gone today, here tomorrow" >>>
> -< Law is a means not an end. >-
>
>RE: 757.61
>
>> He was convicted of breaking a law which prohibits meetings
>> between OFFICIAL representatives of terrorist organizations
>> WITHOUT proper government APPROVAL.
>
>This gives the impression that law is something very sacred, no
>matter how terrible it may be. This is topic for another
>discussion.
I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave. The impression I
meant to give was, simply, that your facts were wrong.
|
| 757.65 | | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue Oct 10 1989 05:31 | 2 |
| This is just to remind everybody that a similar law exists in the
US.
|
| 757.66 | Anachronism Rules O.K. !!! | PAYME::MONTY | Repeal the banana | Tue Oct 10 1989 07:15 | 34 |
| RE: 757.58
>> An Austrian German Jew by the name of Leopold Weiss was on a visit to
>> Jerusalem towards the end of 1922 as a reporter for a German newspaper
>> the _Frankfurter Zeitung_. An informal meeting was in progress in the
>> home of a friend, with Dr. Chaim Weismann, the undisputed leader of
>> the Zionist movement at the helm of affairs. He was surrounded by his
>> young fans - Ben Gurion, Begin, and Dyan. The Doctor had the map of
>> Palestine on the table and was expostulating how it was to be carved
>> out as a Jewish State.
Hmm, Interesting collection of historical figures.
Leaving alone the rest of your note, I had to reread the previous
paragraph a few times.
Correct, Dr Chaim Weizman was the titular leader of the Zionist
Movement, he was at loggerheads with David Ben-Gurion, one of the
leader of the Jewish Yishuv. So I wouldn't exactly call him a young
fan of Dr Weizman. Come to think of it, _young_ is also the wrong word
to use, there was only 12 years between them. (Weizman was born in 1874
and Ben-Gurion 1886).
However, placing Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan, at the same meeting,
would have been very interesting. Menachem Begin was born in 1913
(would have been about 9 at the time of the meeting) and did not arrive
in Israel till the end of the 30's. Moshe Dayan was born in 1915.
Perhaps Leopold Weiss was writing with a great deal of poetic license
or you should re-examine your references.
Questioningly yours (with apologizes to Chris)
.... Monty
|
| 757.67 | Anybody giving me free disk space :-? | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Tue Oct 10 1989 10:43 | 18 |
| There are no Austrian German Jews. Unless I'm given endless diskspace
in this file, I can't describe what I feel under my fingernails.
On a different subject:
Are the Christian-Jewish related quotes from the Koran quoted
correctly?
On yet another subject: Wei� was of similar fame than Egon Erwin
Kisch, Torberg, et.al.: A brilliant journalist and writer.
But believe me: without grabbing the full cultural context his
personality was formed in, your quotes are taken out of context.
Obscurely yours,
Chris
|
| 757.68 | Minor correction | HPSTEK::SIMON | Curiosier and curiosier... | Tue Oct 10 1989 13:50 | 7 |
| re: .66
As far as I remember from Begin's book "White Nights" he lived in
Poland until WW II, then was imprisoned in a Soviet labor camp, and
moved to Israel only at the end of the war.
Leo Simon
|
| 757.69 | | SUBWAY::STEINBERG | | Tue Oct 10 1989 17:18 | 12 |
| Re: 794.1
*I* am replying here because note .57 is THE only cause for the intifada,
as is evidenced by the words "Allahu Akhbar" exiting the lips of so many
of the Muslim butchers of innocent lives. As for 794.1, it is totally
irrelevant drivel, undeserving of serious consideration.
BTW, I find the name of the base topic to be obscene and offensive in
its insinuation. When innocent men, women, and children are machine-
gunned down in airports, blown out of the sky, thrown off cruise ships,
tossed out of school windows, burned to death in busses, knifed to
death in the street - this is termed "terrorism".
|
| 757.70 | Mr. Ashraf, be honest and THINK, for God's sake | ERLANG::ARTSY | | Tue Oct 10 1989 18:07 | 45 |
| re: .58 ("He was surrounded by his young fans - Ben Gurion, Begin, and
Dyan. ...")
Mr. Ashraf: I've read several of your notes in the past, and was always
amazed by your ignorance of the facts or your unfair one-sidedness.
Couldn't you at least check or think how old Dayan and Begin were in 1922?
This is a silly small point, but it shows the credibility of your claims and
your sources. Likewise, before praising one journalist's point,
couldn't you at least try to put it in perspective? After all, think
in what situation Austrian-German Jews were at that time; think also in
what newspaper this story was published; and, think of the fact that
NO ONE, I mean NO ONE at that time, even King Saud who met with
Weizman, thought of a Palestinian problem in 1922, so why would you
blame Weizman (if the story is true at all, which I honestly doubt).
Similarly your praising of Abie Natan in .59. I think he's a great person,
despite my deep disagreement with his views. But the law prohibits meetings
with TERRORISTS (and yes, Yasir Arafat as the head of El-Fatah and other
terror movements associated in the PLO is a TERRORIST). Similar laws
do exist in USA and other Western societies, not to mention the great
democracies of the Mideast: Syria, Iraq ... But I want to ask you frankly:
Why are you so mad at the imprisonment of one Israeli, and accept the brutal
murder of many many of your brothers and sisters in Aza and Shhem, Hevron
and Rafiah (in the hands of their brothers and sisters, of course), whose
only crime was working in Israel or even obeying the rule of carrying id
cards? What civilized law did they break? Why didn't they get at least a
fair trial? So, Mr. Ashraf, before attacking a law that many civilized
societies agree with, please say something about the barbaric law of the
heroes of the so called Intifada!!
And finally, if you want to impress idiots or the ignorants, please
continue the same line of half lies, half stupid claims, which you
perfectly showed in your recent entries. If, however, you want to make
intelligent and fair claims, try to think first, and, FOR GOD's SAKE,
try to be honest, at least with yourself.
Hope you'll learn something,
Shaike
Ps: A few years ago a friend of mine had a great idea: to make terminals
active devices, rather than passive devices that accept any rubbish.
The idea was to attach a micro with some logic that analyzes whatever
is typed, and a manual hand that gives a "petch in the punim" if the
material is rubbish. Sometimes (e.g., reading .58) I regret he never
got to implement his idea.
|
| 757.71 | no, the Qoran is NOT the source of the problem | DELNI::GOLDSTEIN | Do you, Mr. Jones? | Tue Oct 10 1989 18:13 | 13 |
| Actually, I dispute .69 quite strongly. The Palestinians are about 80%
Moslem and 20% Christian. The Moslems are primarily Sunni, which tends
to be less militant than Shia, and the Palestinians in general are
notably less religious than many of their neighbors. And some of the
extremist, irredentist leaders (such as Dr. Habash) are Christian.
There has, of course, been a rise in Moslem fundamentalist extremism
since the Intifadah, which bodes ill for Israel and the region. Hamas,
a Moslem extremist group, rose from obscurity with the covert backing
of many right-wing Israelis, who preferred a clear and obvious enemy
who would never negotiate to the more moderate Palestinian mainstream.
(Such moderation, of course, is only relative!) Only lately has Israel
realized how dangerous that is.
|
| 757.72 | since when can't I meet with anyone? | DELNI::GOLDSTEIN | Do you, Mr. Jones? | Tue Oct 10 1989 18:28 | 8 |
| Can anyone cite an American law that prohibits all meetings with
government-designated "terrorists"? That has stood up to court
scrutiny? Except for the discredited McCarran-Walter Act and other
such McCarthyist laws, which are today mostly nugatory, I can't think
of any.
Is it my memory or are people just wishing that the US didn't have that
terribly inconvenient Bill of Rights?
|
| 757.73 | | NOTIME::SACKS | Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085 | Wed Oct 11 1989 09:30 | 11 |
| re .71:
While the Quran may not be the source of the problem, Moslem religious
leaders have use Islamic tenets to inflame their followers. Two years
ago, leaving shul on the second day of Rosh Hashanah, my wife and I
found ourselves walking through the shukh in the Old City against an
angry crowd of Arabs who had just left the Dome of the Rock. It was
a terrifying experience, especially when a 9-year-old boy who was
with us disappeared. After some heart-stopping moments, it was
discovered that the boy, tired of going against the crowd, had taken
a short cut home.
|
| 757.74 | | LDYBUG::ALLISTER | | Thu Oct 12 1989 16:34 | 11 |
| re: the mythical meeting of Weizman and 9 year old Moshe:
many of you beat me to the punch.
re: "Austrian-German Jews"
just because somebody had the ignorance of using the term, is
no reason for others to repeat it here. Please stop using it,
or I'll give Chris the infinite disk space he asked for!
Alex
|
| 757.75 | Thanks, mod... | SUTRA::LEHKY | I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool. | Mon Oct 16 1989 11:49 | 11 |
| re .74:
The "Austrian Intruder" is thankful, indeed...
It's hard enough to keep telling people throughout endless evenings
that Austria is NOT the place with the Kangooroos, leave alone trying
to explain that Austria .nes. Germany.
Infatigably yours,
Chris
|