Conference taveng::bagels

    
    Yes, people can really convert to Judaism.  It's not encouraged--in
    fact, it's fairly difficult to convert to Judaism, particularly if
    you're interested in Orthodox conversion--but it's certainly possible. 
    
    Acceptance as a Jew depends upon the community in which you find
    yourself.  My (orthodox) synagogue this month has had two conversions
    of which I am aware; both of these people felt comfortable with, and
    were accepted by the community before their conversion, and are now
    accepted wholeheartedly as members of the congregation.  In fact, it's
    traditional that once people have converted, they *are* Jewish, and you
    "forget" having known them as anything else; difficult if you want to
    throw a party to celebrate someone arriving at such an emotional moment
    after having struggled so long to get there!
    

    My wife and other women friends did throw a "surprise" welcome party
    for a woman who was converted.  It seemed as if the whole Sisterhood
    showed up. As I left my house (where the party was being held) I
    noticed the attendees...the Bostoner Rebbizin, her daughter-in-law, and
    many other main stays of the community...all of whom were influencial
    in the conversion of this woman.
    
    One is not supposed to remind a person of their former status...but
    this private party (no announcement was made of the formal conversion
    in synogogue) was a celebration.
    
    To respond to the basenote:  There are a number of notes in this
    conference which describe the issue of conversion and the controversies
    surrounding the different "flavors" of Judaism and their different
    methods of conversion and their acceptance by the other "flavors".
    I will not begin those discussions again here.
    
    Sincere converts are accepted in Judaism.  In fact, Ruth (a
    great-grandmother of King David) was a convert.  A number of famous
    Rabbis in history were also converts.
    
    ---Av
     

    Funny that you stated this....My mom has a friend who married a
    wonderful woman....he is Jewish, and she is not.  She is more active
    in our Temple that most of the "twice a year" Jews - you know those
    - the high-holiday Jews - and I never thought that she wasn't Jewish.
     She converted before the marriage, and there has never been a problem
    since then.
    
    I think your daughter will do fine...I'm sure that the man she is
    marrying loves her very much to overlook the religion problem, so
    she is starting out better than most.  Good luck to her, and to
    you...Mazel Tov.
    
    Jill
    

    To quote Rabbi Schneider "if one has chosen to be a gehr or proselyte,
    he/she deserves greater honor than one born a Jew".  He also said
    "the increased number of Jews in the U.S.A. (10%) in the past 10 years
    is due to proselytism not a greater number of Jewish births".
    
    Mazal tov,
    Bernice 

Re: .4

What a won-derful, rosy picture!! I guess we don't have anything to worry
about.

Jem

    re: .4
    
    Umm, I won't take .5's tact, but according to statistics 40% of
    the American Jewish community will be reduced due to
    assimilation/intermarriage.
    
    David

    Re. .6 by SETH::CHERSON
    
    The Rabbi was making that point:  the decrease in Jewish births
    which makes the amount of conversions remarkable.
    
    Bernice

    In this weeks "Jewish Advocate", there was a report on the US Jewish
    census for 1989.  It revealed a decrease in the number of Jews in the
    US since 1986?.  I didn't know that aliya had increased :^)
    
    

    re: .8
    
    If the tenor of times was different I would have found it amusing.
    
    David

On an individual level, conversion is a very serious matter for both the
person involved and the Jewish people as a whole.

As for conversion as a means of expanding the Jewish population, I think
that note 95.0 says it best.

    To clarify my note .4 where I misquoted Rabbi Schneider, he said
    that the number of conversions have increased 10%.
    
    Sorry,
    Bernice

    Re: .10
    
    Humor triumphs again! But I'm not sure if I was crying from laughter
    or terror after reading note 95.0 .
    
    Jem
    

There have been several cryptic, encoded replies to this topic. I feel impelled
to provide an explaination.

According to Jewish traditions, Jews are not supposed to intermarry. A non-Jew
may convert to Judiaism if he/she sincerely wants to be a Jew; but merely
wanting to marry a Jew is NOT an acceptable reason to want to convert. Parents
have been known to go into mourning (as if for a death) when a child
intermarries.

A considerable split between the three main branches of Judiaism is developing
over this issue; hence the sarcastic responses that preceed this one. The first
Orthodox rabbi who is approached by a non-Jew is supposed to reject him/her just
to test that person's sincerity and tenacity. A Conservative rabbi would simply
question the person and most likely accept any reasonable response without much
probing. A Reform rabbi would most likely accept any candidate (probably because
the rabbi would rather bend the rules than lose the marriage partner). Because
of these differences (and others that I don't care to mention here), Orthodox
rabbis do not accept non-Orthodox conversions nor the *children* of such
converts. Note that a person is considered Jewish if s/he has a Jewish *mother*
or is properly converted.

The topic "Who is a Jew?" always evokes strong feelings and a lively discussion.
Intermarriage, assimilation, and conversion are important components of this
complex subject.

It is true that converts are fully accepted by the Jewish community (with the
exception of Orthodox congregations and non-Orthodox converts). I, personally,
feel much better about a couple when the non-Jewish partner converts. In all the
mixed-religion families I know, the children grow up to become nothing. I think
it is so sad to hear a child say "I have Christmas AND Channukah" and to
realize that, in fact, s/he has neither.

Dave

    Dave, I agree with almost everything you say. And you are correct
    from the Jewish perspective, and why not? This is BAGELS after all.
    However the world does not revolve around Jewish perspective. I agree
    that it is sad when a child thinks s/he has both Xmass and Chanuka,
    when in reality they have neither. Truly sad. Yet you should be more
    careful when you say that: "In all the mixed-religion families I know, 
    the children grow up to become nothing." If you intend to say that
    ``nothing'' stands for atheism or lack of religiosity or non-Judaism
    you may well be right. But truly there is much more to life, happiness,
    and achievement than being able to fill in "religion _______" item
    ``correctly'' on a form or a document.
    
    You've heard me say this before in this conference. I know that
    religion is vital to the survival of the Jewish people. But there
    are numerous "nothings" (from the standpoint of religion) who are 
    unequivocally viewed by most Jews as proud assets of the Jewish 
    people and history.
    
    Alex
    

    re: .14
    
    I don't know how many times that I've said this here (nor do I care)
    but there are more components to the Jewish people than just it's
    religion.
    
    David

Shalom,

I have a particular interest in this topic and I hope no one objects my
joining the conversation late.  (I'm very new to BAGELS, so forgive me if
there is another topic that would be a better place to this.)

I'm a *very* recent convert; my conversion was completed last Thursday,
just 6 days ago.  My conversion was, for me, merely a formality, as I have
considered myself Jewish for about 15 years now.  The particular stimulus
(*not* "reason"!) for the conversion is the fact that my fianc�e's mother
is Orthodox and was uneasy about the engagement without a formal
conversion.  I was converted by a Reform rabbi in a Conservative
congregation (a bit of everything, eh?).

Like many of the things I do, my conversion was a bit unorthodox, to
overuse a pun.  Because of my heavy travel schedule, the rabbi's imminent
departure for another job, and various other factors, I had my mikvah done
in the Columbia River near Portland, OR, and my Bet Din (the "final
examination" for conversion) done in a park in Colorado Springs.

I found that the local congregation and Jewish population began to accept
me almost as soon as I made it clear that I was serious about converting.
My rabbi, though Reform, resisted my initial efforts--he did not make it
easy for me.  He wanted to be sure that my conversion was halachically
sound and that there would be no future problems caused by short-cuts.
For that, I'm very grateful; I am a Jew now not only in my own eyes, but
in the eyes of Israel and the world Jewish community, and I'm very proud
to be a part of this wonderful people.  I am not, nor do I feel any
pressure to be, particularly active in the Jewish community--or any other
community, for that matter; I'm simply not a joiner.  However, I expect
that over time I will drift more and more into Jewish activities
(especially when my fianc�e moves here from France) and will find more
fulfilment there.

This has been a rather long and disconnected ramble, when what I really
wanted to say was that .0's daughter will certainly be welcomed
wholeheartedly into her husband's family and community, yet she will not
likely be pressured into giving up her relationship with her own family.
She will have the best of all worlds and is to be congratulated.

Thanks,
   Jim

    Re. .16
    
    Welcome Jim, mazal tov and best wishes to you 
    and your family.
    
    Bernice

Welcome and mazel tov. As my rabbi once said to one of our congregation's newer
members (a convert): "That's funny, you don't look non-Jewish."

Dave