Conference taveng::bagels

    The closest analogy I can think of:
    
    The perception among Americans of the level of danger in Israel
    from terrorism, is about equivalent to the perception among Israelis
    of the level of danger in the US from street crime.
    
    In other words, if she takes some common sense precautions (equivalent
    to knowing not to walk through harlem alone at night), she won't
    have any problems.
    
    Steve
    

    I'm sending my 10 and 8 year old daughters to stay with family friends
    in Jerusalem for 3 weeks this summer.  I have no fear about their
    safety.  
    
    Av
    
    BTW-- The way to get messages (letters) to friends/relatives is to send
    them with someone to mail or hand deliver.  People are going to Israel
    all the time.
    
    

    RE: 728.1

    >knowing not to walk through harlem alone at night

    That was an unfortunate choice of words.  I assume you didn't intend a
    racial implication, but it is there.  I think it behooves us to be
    sensitive to the implications of our words.

    RE: 728.0

    I've wandered around the Old City, West and East Jerusalem, and never
    felt I was in any danger.  I did have a feeling--although no hard
    evidence--that it would be a mistake to leave belongings unattended; 
    which is pretty much my attitude in Boston.

    RE: 728.2

    ...Or find a DECie she can check in with from time to time to get
    email :^)
                                        Aaron

    >>knowing not to walk through Harlem alone at night
    >That was an unfortunate choice of words.
    
    Harlem either is or is not a high-crime area.  If it is unsafe to
    walk through Harlem at night, then no one should be denied that
    information.  It is in no way racist to provide safety information
    to people.
    
    I don't understand your line of thinking:  "Hmm, in my side of town
    there is little crime.  In Harlem there is a lot of crime.  Something's
    not right here.  Let's cover up the statistics about Harlem's crime
    rate.  True, some people will not know it's unsafe and will be
    mugged or raped or murdered.  But I'll feel better.  I will create
    an artificial world where everything is hunky-dory."  We should
    try to understand the underlying causes of the high crime rate--
    drugs, poverty, broken families, etc.--and strive to improve those
    conditions.  We shouldn't bury our heads in the sand.  

Well, I won't try to tell a Jewish mother not to worry about her daughter,
but ...

I made aliyah to Jerusalem from the Boston area 3� years ago.  I can't make
comparisons to your "protected suburb", but Jerusalem probably is safer
than any American city of its size (around half a million people).  You'd
certainly have more reason to worry about sending her to, say, Boston
University or NYU.

As for traveling around the country, this is an excellent idea.  The inter-city
bus service is cheap and much more comprehensive than in the States.  I
would suggest that she travel with a friend or two, either male or female,
unless she's a determined loner.

As for the "Ultra-Orthodox cults" mentioned in .5, it's an unfortunate fact
that such groups (not necessarily Jewish) are to be found in many, many
places.  99% of observant (ultra-Orthodox or otherwise) Jews, of course,
are perfectly fine people.  Here your daughter can meet people from backgrounds
very different from her own.  There's nothing wrong with approaching this
in the "enthusiastic" manner that you describe, as long as it's mixed with
a small dose of skepticism (but not too much).

I'm sure that this will be a very positive experience for your daughter.
Many parents let their own irrational fears interfere with their children's
development, and you are absolutely right to let her come here.  You'll
probably lose some more sleep over this, but the parent of a college-age
child should be used to that.

    RE: 728.4

    >Harlem either is or is not a high-crime area.

    There are quite a few places in New York city that are high-crime
    areas.  I suspect that if you did a comparison of crime statistics you
    would find several places in the city that are more dangerous.  The one
    characteristic of Harlem that most people know is that many of the
    people who live there are Black or Hispanic.  Thus, to single out
    Harlem as the prototypical "dangerous" area suggests that what one
    should avoid is areas in which Blacks/Hispanics live.  I submit that
    anyone familiar with NYC will exercise caution in most parts of
    Manhattan, not just Harlem.

    I did not assume that you _intended_ to imply that crime was a function
    of race; my point was that citing Harlem in this context--given plenty
    of other possible examples--carries that implication even if not 
    intended.  I often run into the use of Jewish stereotypes by people who
    simply don't think about the implications of what they are saying (ever
    hear the use of the term "Jewish lightning" to describe arson?), and it
    bothers me when I think Jews are falling into the same pattern.

                                                Aaron

    Concerning the problem of sending and receiving mail, there are some
    other hi-tech alternatives. (BTW - The postal service isn't normally
    that slow)

    Post Offices at all major centers have FAX machines for sending (and I
    presume receiving). This would allow your daughter to send "timely"
    letters, admittedly at a premium.

    For her to receive FAXs:-

    	There exists mail agencies, that for a fee will receive
    	mail/FAX/Telex for a customer.

    	Some enterprising shops also offer FAX facilities

    Another alternative, if your daughter is involved in any computer
    literate course, is to obtain an account at the University. Electronic
    mail can then be sent through the computer gateways from DIGITAL to the
    Hebrew University. This is by far the easiest and most convenient 
    solution.

    								... Monty

re: < Note 728.7 by RABBIT::SEIDMAN "Aaron Seidman" >

>    There are quite a few places in New York city that are high-crime
>    areas.  

Aaron -

	Sure. But, how many of the noters are NYers? To say "Chelsea" instead
	of "Harlem", while accurate, would make some people (non-NYers) scratch 
	their heads. Of course, we could always say "parts of the city", or, 
	if we were Bostonians, say "Roxbury" (same problem), or "Combat Zone".

	Sometimes the context of a discussion allows us a little latitude in
	how we say things. I think citing Harlem is fine, since it *is* a
	generally-acknowledged high crime area.

eric

I find it hard to believe that .5 was ignored .
>I might mention that there are Ultra-Orthodox cults that prey
>on American young people in Israel.
Please substantiate this claim or withdraw it.

    Well, I think he gave a concrete example. A friend of his. Some
    personal experience. Substantial enough?
    
    What exactly is it you're looking for? Names, Dates, Sites? Disclosing
    these would be against many noting policies, for one that what's
    written in such a file can be construed against Digital as being the
    Corporate's view. Not that I'm a moderator, but...
    
    I think that .5 went to the limits of what's allowed, already,
    providing sufficient detail without compromising anybody, and that you
    should ask the author in a personal mail for details, rather than
    riding an open attack. Also, in order to follow notes policies, you
    should be addressing your request for withdrawal to the mod, copying
    the author. 
    
    Talking about substance: although you blame the collective of
    contributors for some non-taken action ("I wonder why nobody..."),
    you yourself fail to substantiate your motives. I, for one, wonder
    why you wonder.
    
    Sorry that I stepped in, Gav.
    
    Notingly yours,
    
    Chris

    The correct phrasing was "I find it hard to believe...", not "I
    wonder why..."
    
    Correctingly yours,
    
    Chris

    Jeremy,
    
    Since most of us in the US have been en vacance since last week, we
    didn't have a chance to reply yet.
    
    I think the term "Ultra-Orthodox CULTS" is what should be explained. 
    It is true that there are Orthodox organizations that introduce Jewish
    youth to their traditions.  To call these organizations "cults" is to
    smear them.  What often happens is that a "traveling youth" is
    approached and invited to a class or Shabbat service.  He/she is not
    brainwashed.  He/she is introduced to traditional Judaism...to what a
    traditional Shabbos is... to what real Jewish learning is.  People are
    free to leave whenever they wish.  Many stay to learn because their
    Jewish beliefs are reawakened and challenged. They are taught to
    inquire, investigate, and challenge their assumptions about what
    Judaism is and how someone can live as a Jew in contemporary society. 
    This is most likely very different from what they had been previously
    taught or told.  FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I know that parents, family
    and friends do not appreciate the changes that can take place when
    someone begins to take Judaism seriously and decides that an "orthodox"
    lifestyle makes sense for him/herself.  FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, I
    know scores of people who have become "Bal Tshuvah" (returnees to
    traditional Judaism).  NONE have been cultists.  If someone had to have
    the intervention of the International Red Cross...that says something
    about the family relationship. When I was becoming more traditional in
    my observance, I was encouraged to connect with my family.  They were
    not happy about it, but they certainly didn't need outside help to talk
    with me.  I don't know every "outreach" organization on Israel, but, 
    what Ms. Friedman related  is so outside the norm for these types of
    groups that I would call for an investigation and expose to warn people
    about this specific organization.
    
    Could she please give more specifics so that our TAV1 friends can check
    it out.
      
    
    Chris,
    
    Me thinks you "protest too much".
    
    ---Av

    Re: .14

    I will send you mail for that information. But you wrote the following:
>   I might mention that there are Ultra-Orthodox cults that prey
>   on American young people in Israel.
    As .13 mentioned, there certainly are Jewish outreach organizations in
    Israel, but I have never heard of any institution "sucking" someone in,
    with all that that implies. You further use the plural. Do you have 
    evidence of other such abductions?
	Jeremy

	I asked the author of 728.5 to explain why he removed the note, but
he declined. Here is the story. 
	The author gave me the name his friend's mother (Mrs. D.), whom I
called last evening. Her account:
Her son had been in Israel for a year on kibbutz and Ulpan. A few
weeks before he was scheduled to leave the country he was at an unnamed
place (probably the Kotel), and he was approached by someone who asked
him if he wanted to learn more about his heritage (and possibly a meal).
He was taken presumably to a Yeshiva, where he stayed for about 2 weeks
(that's 2 weeks, not 2 years!). He was apparently enjoying himself, in
that he wanted to stay for longer, but his mother was concerned that his
return ticket would expire. At no time did she contact the Red Cross or
the U.S. Embassy. She simply made it clear that she would not pay for a
return ticket if the one he had expired. He still wanted to stay on, so
she contacted some unnamed Jewish federation to convince him to come
back, which he finally acceeded to. Nobody ever told him not to call or
to hate(!) his parents.
At the end of the conversation she confided that
she wishes in retrospect that he would have stayed on to learn about
Judaism - "maybe it would have straightened him out".
This week's Parshat Hashavua (weekly Torah portion) is Korach, who was
punished along with many of his followers for creating needless controversy.
We can all stand to take a lesson from his mis-actions.
Jem

    I believe the yeshiva in question is "Esh HaTorah".  They always
    seemed to be positioned at the Kotel and on the lookout for Americans.
    However it is a little too extreme to say that they "capture"
    unsuspecting people, unlike certain other denominations.  In fact
    I know of no Jewish institution that practices this.
    
    David

    re: .6, about cults: some hints from a person who lectures extensively
    about cults (not me, I heard these). The things he suggested are simple
    to do.  They are unobtrusive precautions and can help make strange
    situations more comfortable. 
    
    If you've received an invitation to a dinner or other event and
    you're concerned about whether you might get forced into involvement
    with a group that you'd rather not be involved with (cult or otherwise):
    
    *   Go with a friend that you know and trust instead of going alone.
    
    *   Stick with your friend.  If the group forces you to separate (i.e.,
        go into different rooms, study groups, etc.) and you don't want to,
        leave. 
    
    *   Keep car keys, bus/train tickets, (i.e., transportation home) etc.,
        in your posession at all times. Know the bus/taxi schedules.  Be sure
        you always have a ride home. 
    
    *   Trust your feelings.  If you feel uncomfortable, leave.
    
    *   Tell someone where you're going and when you can be expected
        home.  Then, be on time or call (ooh, just like having a parent).
    

    I'd like to publicly thank Jeremey Steinberg for following through to
    determine the facts of the "case" and put a stop to the  slander of
    "Ultra" -Orthodox outreach programs. 
    
    ---Av

    I was heartened by the private replies to my worries, but
    I just read and saw the disaster about the Isreali bus
    crash. Are there more instances now of these aberrations?
    I would think the Arabs and Palestinians are a little 
    stir-crazy (for lack of a better term) with all the
    restrictions.  Those people with unstable personalities
    now have reason for more instabilities.
                                                             
    By the way what is the arab-jewish ratio now in Israel?
    
    the worried mother
    

    Despite the bus incident and the intifadah, etc. I would still say
    that Israel is far more secure than many other countries.
    
    However people's psyches do suffer as a result of the quantification
    of such incidences over the years.
    
    David

    I went to Israel some years ago when I was about 30.  I am a woman
    and travelled alone.  I want to provide some reassuring thoughts.
    
    I think the risk with terrorism then (and now) can be equated with
    the risks of earthquake or tornado here - not impossible, but
    statistically unlikely.  The Israelis are very security conscious
    in many small ways.  Most turmoil is in the occupied zones.
    
    The odds of traffic accidents is higher than of terrorism.  The
    Israelis are known for being a bit meshugah on the road.  I am sure
    your daughter would not ride with someone who was a careless driver
    in Tel Aviv any more than in Boston.
    
    The men were very forward with me.  I was frequently approached
    and even subtly propositioned.  Since your daughter will be with
    other students most of the time, this probably won't happen.  She
    should learn how to say "Bug off, buddy!" in Hebrew, and mean it.
    But I never felt in danger of being attacked, any more than in the
    states.
    
    For your own peace of mind, give her the number of the US Embassy
    there, travellers checks, and a credit card.  The clinics and hospitals
    are excellent and many of their people speak English.
    
    Unless she is very shy, she will make lots of friends through school.
    There are people from all over the world in Israel.  She can easily
    find other girls to travel with and socialize with.  
    
    Lots of free/cheap things to do . . .Jerusalem has excellent walking
    tours, the nature society has hikes in the country, there are bus
    tours, excellent museums, and I'm sure there are lots of activities
    including tours through the school.
    
    She just has to use common sense - don't walk in the Arab section
    of Jerusalem at night, etc.  
         
    I spent a Shabbat with one of the orthodox groups that solicit ath
    the Kotel.  Never felt confined or restrained.  Didn't agree with
    their extreme views, but had an interesting and memorable experience.
    If your daughter has a good sense of self, she will be fine.
    
    Her worst danger is not getting enough sleep because there are too
    many things to do.
    
    Laura
                               

    My wife, my 10-month old son, and I just returned from a vacation
    in Israel.  At no time did any of us feel unsafe.  Admittedly, we
    were disturbed by the bus incident, but never did we change our
    plans as a result.
    
    We stayed in Netanya and had a wonderful time.  We never gave a
    second thought to going for a walk on the beach after dark or going
    to a cafe at midnight.  We toured Jerusalem, took buses and taxis
    to all parts of the country and felt no less safe than taking public
    transportation in Boston.  We may have been more aware than most
    Americans, but nowadays I find myself looking for suspicious objects
    and abandoned parcels here in the States as well.
    
    An interesting aside is that the sight that is most unnerving to
    most Americans at first is the very essence of Israel's security
    -- the constant presence of soldiers.  Here in the States, we are
    not used to seeing soldiers walking in the streets, let alone walking
    with guns.  But oddly enough, I am more afraid of some loony opening
    fire on a crowd of people here in the States than I am of a soldier
    doing the same in Israel.  And after a while, the soldiers become
    part of the normal pattern of life, albeit a reassuring pattern.
    
    Having met many students in Israel that have done the same thing
    that your daughter is planning to do, I can tell you that she will
    have a wonderful and SAFE time.  She will meet many new people from
    a variety of cultures, she will come into contact with a different
    lifestyle and a different set of values, and perhaps for the first
    time in her life, she will feel her life moving to a Jewish rhythm.
    You can rest assured that she will be having the time of her life.
    
    Steve Engel