Conference taveng::bagels

    I have received 3 messages so far.  Please, if you know anyone who
    might benefit such a forum, or benefit FROM it, let them know about
    this conference.  I will open it up as soon as I get a few more
    inquiries.  Again, please send MAIL to REGENT::LUWISH.  The location of
    the conference will be given only to members and will not be announced
    anywhere.
    
    Ed

    The conference is open for business, and I would love to encourage as
    many participants as possible.  Please continue to bug me on
    REGENT::LUWISH and ENTRE::LUWISH to add you as a member.  The
    conference is currently open only to those who have at least one parent
    who escaped the Holocaust, whether or not they actually experienced the
    Camps.  Privacy is guaranteed as best I can.  In order to give this
    announcement more exposure, I will wait a week or so before posting
    note 1.0 as a reply here -- that way it will catch a few of you as you
    NEXT/UNSEEN yourselves merrily along.
    
    Shalom,
    Ed

Could you please explain to us (me) why you feel this notes file should be 
open to members only?


Thanks,


(another) Ed

re: .2

Shalom Ed,

While I understand the desire to keep the conference members only, I believe
that allowing ONLY people who have at least 1 parent who was a survivor is
against company policy.  As I understand it, you can have members only
valuing differences and employee interest conferences but you MUST ALLOW ANYONE
who asks to become a member.  There is a note in ATSE::MODERATORS which points
out the applicable section of Policies and Procedures.  MODERATORS is a
members only conference.

(I also understand that someone who is disruptive of a members only conference
can have membership deleted, so you are not completely out of control)

L'hit,
Gavriel

    The purpose of the conference is to aid in the recovery of its members.
    Experience has shown that opening such forums to everybody has a
    contrary result -- it impedes this recovery.  If there is a policy such
    as you mentioned, I will take steps when the enforcing authorities
    bring it to my attention, but not sooner.  If you feel uncomfortable as
    an "accomplice" to my "illegal" action, then you are free, as
    moderator, to delete this note and all its replies.
    
    My sole purpose is to assist the recovery and growth of a group of
    individuals in the only way that I know works.  I have no interest in
    opening up our souls to voyeurs, nor am I interested in sponsoring a
    debate.  Throwing out parties who are "disruptive" is something I would
    rather not have to deal with, particularly if the disruption manifests
    itself as a quiet withdrawal from the conference by members who really
    need such a support system.  It is far better to establish objective
    criteria for membership and enforce them prior to such an unfortunate
    occurrence.
    
    I would be interested in knowing why someone who is not an adult child
    of Holocaust survivors is interested in joining this conference. 
    Please send your reasons to me by mail, or post them here (unless Dick
    decides it is best to delete this note).  I can then ask the current
    membership if broadening the membership would make them uncomfortable
    given that there are others with legitimate reasons for joining.
    
    Ed

    The company's policy vis-a-vis notesfiles and their availablity
    to employees has no relationship to the feelings and issues of children
    of holocaust survivors.  Opening it up would invite unwanted and
    unnecessary input.  I can point to an example within this conference
    when my I was deeply offended by a remark bya certain west coast
    participant.
    
    David  

There are a number of employee-interest notesfiles which operate on a "members
only" basis for exactly the same reasons that seem applicable to a Holocaust
Survivor's notesfile.  These include notes for alcoholics, children of
alcoholics, gays, epilectics, to name a few.

For that matter, there was a time when Bagels was members only in order
to have a record of the people who were reading the file.

You might want to look in the moderator's notesfile (send mail to
RSTS32::KASPER to become a member) for discussion on this point.  Also,
you can ask your local personnel rep or corporate employee relations
for advice.

Martin.

PS: Neither Dick nor I have any interest in censoring BAGELS.

    Here is the relevant part of Policy 6.54 from the P&P manual:

    Computers, Systems and Networks with Restricted Conferences (VAX Notes)

    Conferences (VAX Notes) with restricted access must be in support of
    Company business.  Conferences (VAX Notes) not in support of Company
    business must be open to all employees.

    **************************************************************************

    To my knowledge the other conference which are members only, *must*
    allow any Digital employee who requests membership to become a member.
    I believe that a few (very few) people have had their memberships
    revoked, but only after much dealing with Personnel. You may want to
    check first hand with some of the moderators of those conferences. They
    may have needed permission from Personnel to set-up as members only in
    the first place.


    Behind the form feed below is the entire 6.54 policy.

    
                Proper Use of Digital Computers, Systems and
                                   Networks

Policy

Digital owns and operates computers, systems and networks in support
of Company business activities.  Systems should be used to enhance
the cost effectiveness and efficient running of the business, to
assist employees in being more effective in executing their duties
and responsibilities, to foster appropriate open and efficient
communications and to perpetuate the use of computers in day-to-day
activities.  The efficient operation of these vital resources is
critical to the success of the business.  Therefore, it is the
responsibility of all employees to ensure that these resources are
being used properly.

Definition

For purposes of this policy, improper use includes, but is not
limited to, the use of Digital owned and/or operated computer
systems and networks for the purpose of gaining unauthorized access
to internal or external computer systems or accounts, for personal
purposes that are contrary to Company philosophy or policy, for
purposes that interfere with the Company's business activities, or
for purposes of individual financial gain.  Examples of misuse could
be transmitting offensive, harassing and/or devaluing statements,
developing and transmitting inappropriate graphics, transmitting
sexual or ethnic slurs or jokes, soliciting other employees,
developing chain letters, communicating matters of private
conviction or philosophy, permitting unauthorized access, etc.

Responsibilities

Information Systems Managers - Information Systems Managers must
ensure that computers, systems and networks that they manage are
clearly operating in support of Company business activities.  This
could be accomplished by reviewing equipment usage and educating
users, and/or issuing periodic systems management advisories.
Information Systems Managers must immediately investigate and report
any incident of misuse by an employee to the employee's manager.

Managers - Managers should periodically remind employees about the
proper use of Company computer resources and with proper consideration
of employee privacy, monitor these resources to insure that they are
being used in accordance with this policy. Additionally, in cases
where there is suspicion of improper use, managers should discuss the
problem with the employee in question and, if appropriate, involve
Security.  In cases where improper use has been clearly established,
the employee should be dealt with in accordance with the Corrective
Action and Disciplinary Policy (6.21).

Employees - Employees are expected to use Company sponsored computer
resources in accordance with this policy and to support Company
business activities.  In addition, employees should report all
potential misuse to the appropriate Information Systems Manager and/or
their supervisor.

Computers, Systems and Networks with Restricted Conferences (VAX Notes)

Conferences (VAX Notes) with restricted access must be in support of
Company business.  Conferences (VAX Notes) not in support of Company
business must be open to all employees.

    re: .8
    
    P&P or no P&P, there is a need for the ACHS conference to be a
    restricted one.  Why is everyone making such a big deal about this?
    For those "interested others" who want to partake in discussions
    on the holocaust, etc. One Generation After is an organization of
    children of holocaust survivors that is open to all.
    
    David

    Company business includes promoting the general welfare and comfort of
    employees within the Digital environment, which is one reason for the
    Valuing Differences program.  In this context, a restricted conference
    for children of holocaust survivors seems quite appropriate.

    BTW, Valuing Differences is not supported merely out of good will; it
    has an important business aspect.  As the demographics of the work
    force changes, Digital needs to recruit from an increasingly wider
    spectrum of potential workers.  One of the tools we use to persuade top
    people to join us (and stay with us), is to show that we provide more
    than a paycheck, we provide a good work environment.

    The few people that I know to be CoSs have a great deal to contribute
    to a company such as Digital, but they also have a lot of baggage with
    which they have to deal.  In this context, I think there is adequate
    business justification for the conference.

                                        Aaron

    I have closed this conference pending its approval by Valuing
    Differences.  It will reopen at that time in whatever form I can
    successfully lobby for, ideally in the form I originally set it up in. 
    I still welcome any mail from Adult Children of Holocaust Survivors, at
    ENTRE::LUWISH and REGENT::LUWISH, since we can get in dialog by mail
    (or by telephone or in person) even though our "favorite" means of
    communication is temporarily denied us.  I will be able to refer any
    new applicants to other people in the same situation, so that the
    dialog does not have to necessarily go through me (more of a "network"
    than a conference).
    
    Although I had sincerely wished that we had restrained ourselves from
    debating the issue, and thus had quietly allowed the ACHS conference to
    go about its business undisturbed, I acknowledge that I can barely
    control my own behavior, let alone that of others.  I would have
    appreciated a direct dialog, rather than this open debate that can only
    attract the attention of those who would have a hidden agenda in
    stopping the ACHS conference, or a hidden agenda with respect to me
    personally (as a Jew, an engineer, or merely as a human being concerned
    for the well-being of others -- none is particularly popular these
    days).
    
    I will not delete the main note or any of the replies I have entered. 
    I think this record is important, praticularly if it catches the eye of
    a browsing ACHS person who doesn't know that any self-help services
    exist at Digital.  I freely admit that I created the conference, not
    out of ignorance of the rules, but out of fear that permission to do so
    would have been denied if I had sought it.  This fear goes along with
    all the other "bags" that I carry as an ACHS.
    
    I hope that my personal decision to close the conference and seek
    alternate routes does not deter anyone else from taking a controversial
    stand.  As I see it, I have not in any way turned aside from the battle
    -- I have merely chosen a different battlefield where I have a better
    chance of winning.  Because if I "win" this one, all Adult Children of
    Holocaust Survivors win too, and by extension, their spouses, children
    and co-workers, of which all of us are one or another.
    
    Thank you,
    Ed

Ed,

I doubt very much that you will be denied permission to open the conference.
You probably be able to make it members only.  What you will probably not be
able to do is restrict who can become a member based on the status of parentage.

Gavriel

    
    
    Well those of you who raised such a fuss about a lousy P&P being violated 
    got your wish, the Adult Children of Holocaust Survivors conference has 
    been taken off the air (at least temporarily).
    
    I have to say that I am terribly disapointed by the fact that it was 
    people in BAGELS who were urging this.  What bothered you so much about 
    our conference being members-only?  Do you have some voyeuristic desire 
    to read discussions of children of holocaust survivors?  Did you feel 
    left out of partaking in said discussions?  I'd like to know.
    
    I plan to take part in the motion to the Valuing Differences committee to 
    restore the conference to it's previous state, we need it.
        
    David

    re .15
    
    Looks like there are enough people who have nothing better to do.
    This is in addition to having a weird sense of what is "right",
    especially since there are other conferences that could be seriously
    questioned in light of P&P.
    
    I have to agree with David. A sad development.
    
    Al

From my reading of this debate, noone with the authority to close down the ACHS
conference has stepped forward to do so. I am reminded of something my Dad used
to say (a nice Jewish CPA): if the IRS never asks you for more money you are
paying too much in taxes. Don't close down your conference until directed to do
so. I doubt if you would be in any kind of trouble even in that event.

Dave