Conference taveng::bagels

    
    How about 565.* or 643.* ?
    

   Demanjuk's appeal was postponed to December, I think.
   In the meantime, he's in jail.

   The appeal was postponed, because two days before the original date 
   (sometime last January), one of his defence lawyers, Dov Eitan,
   jumped mysteriously to his death from the the fifteenth floor of
   Migdal Yerushalayim (next to Mashbir Lazarchan) in King George St,
   in the centre of Jerusalem.
   Then, at the funeral service an old camp survivor threw acid in the
   face of the other defence lawyer, Yoram Sheftel.
   Sheftel was seriously injured in one eye and the old man was charged with
   causing grievous bodily injury.

   Meanwhile, Demanjuk is in jail where he reportedly does for his daily
   exercise 120 push-ups.

    Zaitch,
    
    Before your automatic Demanjuk reminder program, puts another note in
    BAGELS asking about the appeal ..... I thought I'd give you an update.
    
    The appeal opens next week in Jerusalem. With the defense team stating
    they have some important new evidence showing that Demanjuk was not
    "Ivan the Terrible" from Treblinka.
    
    							... Monty

re .3    
>    The appeal opens next week in Jerusalem. With the defense team stating
>    they have some important new evidence showing that Demanjuk was not
>    "Ivan the Terrible" from Treblinka.

Apparently, the defence found an old peasant woman in a village near Treblinka
who claimed to have had intimate relations with Ivan the Terrible during WWII.
She has stated that he told her that his name was Ivan Marchenko, and thus
Ivan D. couldn't be the Nazi war criminal Ivan The Terrible.

The prosecutor Michael Shaked mentioned that Demanjuk's mother's maiden name
was Marchenko, and also that it isn't too difficult to find people who lived
in villages near the concentration camps who are willing to sell stories.

    There was a TV documentary here in the UK that showed the 
    defence evidence that asked the question if the guy that 
    Israel has in custody is Ivan the Terrible.
    
    The evidence as presented on TV looked very convincing
    although I don't like 'trial by television'. 
    
    Some of the main points of the defence were,
    
    - the lady who it was claimed had intimate relations with Ivan during 
      the war, and her claim that this wasn't the same man
    
    - the identification supplied by the USSR that when examined by 
      a defence supplied phorensic (spelling?) expert showed that 
      the ID of Ivan used a photo that had holes in it that implied
      it could easily have come from another document. It was also asserted
      that the defence were refused permission to take the ID apart 
      to see if there was writing on the back of the photo. If there was
      it could prove that Ivan is not the guy in the dock. 
    
    - inconsistencies between the documentation used by the prosecution 
      and that which would habe been the standard used by the Germans/SS
    
    - the method used by the prosecution in ascertaining identification 
      of Ivan from witnesses. Apperantly the method used was highly 
      suspect in that the photos were of different sizes, and they 
      didn't put the picture of Ivan in a group of pictures of similar 
      looking people. 
    
    - there were many more witnesses outside Israel who were unable to 
      identify Ivan than there were in Israel who could identify him by his 
      photo. All people asked were survivors.
    
    - In America it was asserted that much evidence was hidden from the 
      defence, and some of this eventually came to light after being 
      picked up by a sympathiser of Ivan in a garbage container 
      outside a Macdonalds which is situated close to the offices of the
      state department dealing with Ivan.
    
    - one of the key witnesses wrote an account many years ago that stated
      that Ivan the Terrible had been left for dead after the liberation.
    
    - there were questions  about where Ivan was during the war. 
      There was contradictory accounts on this. 
    
    Of course the evidence can not be judged outside a court of law.
    

    Thank you very much to give us some news about it.
    Because in Europe is very difficult to know properly what happened
    during the dial day-today.
    I renew my thanks
    Friendly chalom
     

What finally happened to Ivan? Was his appeal heard ?
-ZAITCH

ZAITCH,

We haven't forgotten you. If anything happens, we'll keep you informed.

>We haven't forgotten you. If anything happens, we'll keep you informed.
Monty-
Anything happened recently, i.e. since last September ?
ZAITCH

    Zaitch,
    
    Just heard on the news today that there will be a special session in
    the High Court of Appeals today (31-12-90) during which Sheftel is
    going to request two things:
    
    1. Introduce new evidence based on the Fedirenko trial in which Ivan
    the terrible was stated as having been Ivan Marchenko. Now, Shaked
    claims that Marchenko was Ivan Demanjuk's mothre's maiden name, but
    Sheftel has a copy of her marriage certificate which says otherwise.
    Evidently he also has some photographs which seem to show a close
    likeness between Ivan Demanjuk and this Ivan Marchenko.
    
    2. Based on the doubt that #1 seems to introduce, Ivan Demanjuk should
    be released on his own cognizance until the final verdict has been
    passed down. Now, this may seem strange since usually no release with
    or without bail is granted to death row prisoners. However, there are
    several legal precedences in which death row prisoners WERE released
    without bail when evidence which shed grave doubt on the guilty verdict
    was being reviewed.
    
    IMHO, having followed the trial quite closely at the time, I personally
    was never convinced that this Ivan Demanjuk was "Ivan the Terrible"
    from Treblinka. I AM convinced that he WAS definitely a NAZI and did
    serve for the German SS, but NOT in Treblinka.
    
    Will keep you updated....
    
    Cb.

    It seems it is not so simple.
    
    1.	A woman from a town close to Treblinka which said she was the lover
    	of Ivan the Terrible called him Ivan Marchenko.
    
    2.	Ivan Demjanjuk is reported having signed some documents relating 
        with its settlement in the U.S. as Ivan Marchenko.
    
    3.	Some evidence sugested that perhaps Ivan Demjanjuk's mother maiden
    	name was Marchenko.
    
    4.	Sheftel presented evidence that the maiden name of Demjanjuk's
    	mother was not Marchenko. However it seems the evidence is not
    	conclusive: [according to the news] in some of the documents Ivan's
    	mother is called Olga, while in others she is called Juliana.
    
    5.	The tribunal asked for some inconsistencies and the answers the 
    	defense attorney Mr. Sheftel gave seems to have been such, that
        the court called him in contempt for his expresions.
    
    6.	If the court will accept the documentation brought by Sheftel,
    	there may be room for asking the prisoner to be released without
        bail but he will not be entitled to leave the country, until the
    	final veredict.
    
    7.	What was brought to the trial, in my view, is not a man whose 
        mother was or was not called Marchenko. It is a man, that
    	deliberately lied about his past when he entered the U.S., who
    	was part of the Ucranian collaborator army that supported the
    	Nazis, that cannot give any coherent alibi as for his whereabouts
    	in the time of the war that would refute the positive
    	identification made - 40 years later - by survivors of the camp.
    
    	The story about his mothers maiden name seems to me a _legitimate_
    	trick by a lawyer that has very few alternative ways to try to save
        his client from death row.
    
    Regards,
    
    Juan-Carlos Kiel
    

Thanks Cb and Juan-Carlos-- this case seems to go on for ever and ever!
Here in the US it has been forgotten as far as the general press is
concerned, although I am told that the Ukranian American press still
features it from time to time. 
Chaim: if Ivan D is not Ivan the Terrible but rather some other
Nazi collaborator who killed his share of Jews at Treblinka (or
some other death camp), does that make you feel differently about
the death sentence? Ivan the Terrible was truly terrible; his deeds
were horrific. I remember listening to the trial on a pretty daily
basis, at least while the survivors of Treblinka were testifying,
and I recall thinking that EITHER this man was so demented that a
plea of insanity should have been made for him, OR he should be
put to death for sure if anyone has ever deserved the death penalty.
But if Ivan D is not that monster (but some other monster), what
should his punishment be?
Well, anyway please keep us updated as events unfold further.
-ZAITCH

Zaitch,

A Nazi is a Nazi ia a Nazi whether his name was Ivan the Terrible and he did
terrible things or his name was Ivan D. and he also did terrible things. 

I think that what you mentioned about dragging on etc. is connected. 

The issue here is a legal issue - at least publicly. If Ivan D. is not Ivan T.,
as bad as he may have been, the court must acquit him. Then he can be
reindicted as Ivan D. of Travniki, but that means a new trial etc. Where are
you going to find witnesses.

I think this is the problem. I have this feeling that the judges have this same
feeling and are dragging their feet hoping that Ivan D. drops dead from a heart
attack or something. The guy is guilty of crimes against our people, be it as
Ivan T. or Ivan D. 

Cb.

Personally, I'm rather skeptical about the "new evidence".  It's obvious that
Demyanyuk's only chance of getting off would be to show that he isn't Ivan the
Terrible, so it's hardly surprising that his defence has been concentrating its
efforts on doing so.  But courts in both Israel and the United States have
ruled that he is, and it looks to me as if his attorney is just continuing the
same strategy that lost in those trials.

I also don't see any ulterior motives in the amount of time that this is
taking.  The courts here often take a long time to process major cases, and the
government doesn't want it to look as if they rushed things to get a quick
conviction.  As for the defence, they have an excellent reason for dragging out
the process for as long as possible:  Once it ends, their client will be
executed.

... 's about that time again, for me to ask:
	any news on the demjanuk case?

-ZAITCH

    Zaitch,
    
    Last I heard the prosecution was in Russia gathering material for which
    they had previously no been privy. They returned and have asked for
    more time to present this evidence. I'm not sure, but I think that this
    evidence is going to try and disprove the defense claim that John has
    fallen prey to a KGB conspiracy.
    
    I'll keep you posted if/when I hear any news.
    
    Be well and a "Guten Churben" ...
    
    Cb.

>... 's about that time again, for me to ask:
>        any news on the demjanuk case?

   Well, just 2-3 days ago we heard that Demjanuk's defense made a presentation
   to the Supreme Court (which is dealing with the appeal), regarding new
   evidence that supposedly appeared in the USSR and is related to the case.

   The new evidence seems to be related to lots of trials to fellow guards
   in the concentration camps that might shed some light into the identifi=
   cation of Ivan the Terrible.

   The presentation was required, since the trial passed the stage when new 
   evidence can be presented to the tribunal.

Regards,

Juan-Carlos

Chaim, Juan --
Thanks for the update. The story long ago disappeared from the news
services here, so these updates are appreciated. 
Regards, and an easy fast to those who will,
ZAITCH

    A little more detail:
    
    In June the prosecution was given 60 days to travel to USSR and bring
    ``all'' information on one Ivan Marczenko who according to the defence
    was the real Ivan the Terrible.
    
    Seems odd to me. If the prosecution cannot prove its case as of June,
    then isn't there reasonable doubt that Demjanjuk is the right person?
    In any case, defence stated that they ought participate in the search
    as well, but they are not going to argue with the ruling. As of the end 
    of June, some material has been delivered and is being translated.
    
    I personally no longer believe that Demjanjuk is guilty of what he is
    being accused of. Note that I am not saying he was not involved in
    the camps.
    
    Alex

.19>                     If the prosecution cannot prove its case as of June,
.19>    then isn't there reasonable doubt that Demjanjuk is the right person?

But the prosecution *did* prove its case!  That's why Demjanjuk was convicted
and sentenced.  And, just to remind people, the U.S. Justice Department also
proved to the satisfaction of the American courts that Demjanjuk was Ivan the
Terrible.

What the defence has been arguing is that there is additional evidence,
somewhere, that would cast sufficient doubt on the identification of Demjanjuk
as Ivan the Terrible.  Possibly because there is a death sentence involved, the
Israeli courts have been quite willing to allow repeated delays to check out
such evidence.  It should be pointed out that all previous such attempts have
failed.  (Of course, the next one might not.)

Personally, I think that the defence is simply using any possible excuse to
drag out the case.  After all, they have nothing to lose.  If this lasts long
enough, Demjanjuk may die of old age.

Considering the amount of effort that has gone into finding evidence to clear
Demjanjuk, I find it hard to believe that any exists that has yet to be
uncovered.

    
>Personally, I think that the defence is simply using any possible excuse to
>drag out the case.  After all, they have nothing to lose.  If this lasts long
>enough, Demjanjuk may die of old age.
    
    IMPO, I don't think the prosecution and/or the judges would be overly
    distraught if this indeed occurred. 
    
    At the time, I followed the case pretty closely. I was and still am
    convinced that Demjanjuk is guilty of crimes against our people. BUT, I
    do not believe that he is Ivan the Terrible. As far as I'm concerned,
    whether he is or isn't is irrelevant. He deserves his sentence.
    Obviously a court of law cannot take such a "liberal" attitude. 

    Thanks,
    
    Cb.
    
    

    The most recent issue of "The Skeptical Inquirer"� had an article
    on the identification of Demjanjuk with Ivan the Terrible.  They
    went to identification experts and handwriting experts, and all drew
    the same conclusion: Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible.
    
    The article also cheerfully trashed every line of argument and doubt
    that the defense had presented.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    �  I think.  A sudden doubt has just clouded my mind.
    

Article 752 of clari.news.group.jews:
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!rust.zso.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: clari.news.law.supreme,clari.news.interest.history,clari.news.group.jews,clari.news.hot.east_europe
Subject: Israeli high court to hear new Demjanjuk appeal
Keywords: international, supreme court, legal, history, human interest,
	jews, special interest
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 6 Aug 91 11:19:33 GMT
Lines: 28
Approved: [email protected]
Xref: nntpd.lkg.dec.com clari.news.law.supreme:902 clari.news.interest.history:1416 clari.news.group.jews:752 clari.news.hot.east_europe:3107
Location: israel, poland
ACategory: international
Slugword: israel-demjanjuk
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 284; Id: a0501; Sel: na--i; Adate: 8-6-715aed
Codes: yilhris., yihhrxx., yijjrpd.


	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Israel's Supreme Court will hear a new appeal from
John Demjanjuk, the retired American autoworker convicted of Nazi war
crimes who claims he is the victim of mistaken identity, court officials
said Tuesday.
	Defense lawyer Yoram Sheftel said he would present newly discovered
evidence next week that would clear his client. Sheftel has charged
Israeli prosecutors with withholding testimony from Ukranian guards who
were at the Treblinka concentration camp, the site in Nazi-occupied
Poland where Demjanjuk' crimes were said to have been committed.
	The five-member high court scheduled a hearing for Aug. 14, and said
the proceedings would be translated into Ukranian, the native language
of Demjanjuk, 71.
	The retired autoworker from Cleveland was tried for 14 months and
sentenced to death April 25, 1988, under Israel's 1950 Nazi war crimes
law. The only convicted Nazi ever put to death by Israel was Adolf
Eichmann, hanged in 1962.
	Demjanjuk was convicted of committing ``crimes against humanity''
while working as a Nazi guard known as ``Ivan the Terrible.'' The court
said during the years 1942 and 1943 he herded thousands of Jews into the
gas chambers at Treblinka, where 850,000 people were killed.
	Demjanjuk claimed he was a prisoner of war in Chelm, Poland, during
the time of the killings and that the Soviet KGB framed him as Ivan the
Terrible on his Nazi identity card as punishment for deserting the
Soviet army.
	Demjanjuk, the first American ever to stand trial in Israel for Nazi
war crimes, was stripped of his U.S. citizenship in 1981 and extradited
to Israel in 1986.

Yesterday (or was it the day before?), the Israeli Supreme Court began hearing
the latest appeal.  This is to allow the defence to present new evidence that
it claims to have obtained.

From the sketchy reports that I have seen, Sheftel (the defence lawyer) spent a
lot of time attacking both the Israeli and American governments for supposedly
suppressing evidence that proves Demjanjuk's innocence.  At one point, he
demanded that the Supreme Court immediately release Demjanjuk because of this.
In response, one of the judges commented that Sheftel should present his
evidence before they decide if it justifies overturning the guilty verdict!

Without seeing Sheftel's new evidence, of course, it's hard to know whether or
not it really does show that Demjanjuk is innocent.  But if the evidence is
there, why didn't he put more effort into presenting it and less into attacking
Demjanjuk's accusers?