Conference taveng::bagels

>    How is Kosher cheese made?  

	Basically, the the process is the same as for non-kosher cheese.

	The trickiest kashrut problem with cheese is the rennet.  "Rennet"
	is an enzyme which is used to coagulate the milk into cheese.

	There are two classes:  "hard" cheese, and "soft" cheese.  Beware:
	"hard" and "soft" have only little correlation with the texture of
	the cheese; they have to do with whether enzymes are necessary to
	coagulate the cheese.

	"Soft" cheeses (example: cream cheese, pot cheese) do not require
	the enzymes, and therefore have the same kashruth process that any
	other "normal" dairy product would require.

	In the production of "hard" cheeses, the rennet is used. Now,
	rennet is normally made from the stomach lining of a cow.  Hence
	the kashrut problem. (Example of a "hard" cheese: cheddar)

	However, there is available, to food processors, a rennet-like
	enzyme which has a completely chemical basis -- and which functions
	as rennet would in cheese production.  If this enzyme is used
	instead of "natural" rennet, and the ingredients/process are 
	certifiable from all other angles, the cheese is considered kosher.

don feinberg

    To add to what Don said:

    There's an artificial rennet that manufactured by genetically engineered
    bacteria.  I'm not sure if this is what's used by kosher cheese makers.

    A more pointed question is, how was kosher cheese made before artificial
    rennet was available?  I don't know.

I'm somewhat out of my depth of expertise here, but I don't believe the issue
in kashrut for cheese is _whether_ the rennet is of animal origin.

I think that the issue is whether rennet of animal origin comes from a kosher 
animal.  Accordingly, rennet from a properly slaughtered cow is OK, while 
rennet from a pig is not.

The Rabbinical Assembly (Conservative movement) issued a ruling that 
the rennet used in fixing cheese is no longer recognizable as to whether it
is animal in origin, much less which animal it is derived from.  Hence, from 
their point of view, any rennet used in fixing cheese is acceptable as far as 
the kashrut of the cheese is concerned.  Of course, the Orthodox movement 
does not go along with this position.

If I'm mistaken, please post corrections as a followup reply to this note.

    I'm real interested if anyone can write anything more about what
    chemical is used.  
    
    I'm sure that Kosher laws wouldn't allow cow rennet, period in dairy.

    I'm a little more familiar with gelatin than with rennet.  The
    conservatives hold that gelatin made from pigs is kosher.  That's
    why Jello has a K on it -- there's some conservative rabbi who
    approves of it.

    There's a conservadox rabbi named Scheinkopf (sp?) who holds that
    gelatin made from kosher species is kosher whether or not the
    shechita (slaughter) was kosher.  Until Kojel switched to some
    vegetable substitute and got an OU, they had Scheinkopf's
    approval.  I saw some marshmallows for Pesach that also had his
    approval, so he's not out of business.

    The mainline orthodox opinion on gelatin is that it's kosher only
    if the source is kosher.  I don't know if it's considered meat.

    BTW, the principal of Batel B'shishim (a substance is nullified
    ex post facto if it's less that 1/60 of the total, e.g. if a drop
    of milk falls into your pot of chicken soup, it's OK) doesn't apply
    to the rennet in cheese, since you can't make cheese without it.

    There was  cheese  made with "vegetable rennet" at least ten years
    ago.  That predates genetic engineering, and I don't know what the
    source  of  the rennet was, but cheese made with it was acceptable
    to the vegetarians as well as the conservative members of our food
    co-op. 

--David

    It's been quite a while since I went over these laws (in Yore Dea),
    but I believe that the origin of the substance being used is irrelevant
    as to its kashruth (whether it was slaughtered correctly). The factor
    which is important is whether or not the substance has been dried
    out enough to the extent that it no longer can give out any flavor
    or taste. If the substance has been dried out sufficiently, then
    it may be used in the making of cheese, otherwise not.
    
    Rabbi Chaim Ozer Grodinzki was known to have written several responsa
    in which he allowed the use of commercially produced "rennet". Of
    course the underlying reasoning was his belief that the "rennet" was
    indeed being sufficiently dried out. When Rabbi Eliezer Silver came to
    the U.S. he went and checked out how the "rennet" was being produced,
    and he was NOT satisfied that the drying proces was sufficient. His son
    told me that he subsequently wrote to Rabbi Chaim Ozer and the latter
    modified his responsa. 
    
    I don't think that the O.U. relies on any real "rennet" and allows
    only synthetic "rennet" in its products. 
    
    Cb.
    

    My understanding was that part of the issue was whether or not rennet
    was "suitable to be eaten by a dog" and if its origin was recognizable.
    
    If one posits that the above is true of rennet than it doesn't matter
    where the rennet comse from. If the above is not the case than even
    if it comes from a cow it might be considered meat. Thus to be
    completely safe its easier to use cheese where the rennet is synthetic.
    
    yoseff
    

    Does God really care about all these technical issues?  I think that
    it's the idea, the attitude, that you make a good-faith effort to
    keep kosher.  You do it for the discipline, to show that we are
    not "bloodthirsty."  It's not like nonkosher food is poison.

    Actually... G-d does seem to care, since most of the dietary laws are
    clearly stated in the Torah---e.g. kosher vs non-kosher animals.  Of
    course, one must believe that G-d was the author/inspiration for the
    Torah.
    
    Av  

    Hi,
    
    I also heard that the rules of kashrut only apply if the substance
    would be eaten by a dog. It is for this reason that washing powders do not
    need  to be certified as being kosher. Of course there are those who 
    will always demand that bit more! I remember wondering about the basis
    of the original statement as I wasn't aware that dogs would eat all
    food suitable for a human. 
    
    With respect to rennet and what makes it kosher /not kosher this is 
    an area that seems to be full of confusion and little understood. 
    The obvious question in my mind is that if rennet is considered 
    a substance of meat origin it would seem that the laws of kashrut
    forbid it's mixture with milk (and hence cheese making). If it is
    considered to be a milk substance then kashrut should apply the same
    criteria to it's kashrut as other milk substances. By this I would 
    have thought that those who require their milk to be supervised  should
    expect the same from rennet and for that matter the milk that makes
    cheese. Those who do not buy supervised milk should not need to buy
    supervised cheese (unless the health laws that safeguard milk and its
    origin don't apply to rennet).
    
    If rennet is regarded as a chemical I fail to understand how it could 
    render cheese as kosher or not kosher (unless the question is when it
    becomes a chemical, and the need for drying out for this to occur). 
    
    Regarding Chaim's note and the importance of the drying out process 
    I heard that there was a very dubious practice of allowing rennet 
    that comes from Cows in India as they are left to rot after dying. 
    This would confirm Chaim's statement as the cows are not kosher but the 
    rennet would have had the opportunity to dry out.
      
    				/Malcolm

Re: < Note 699.12 by IOSG::LEVY "QA Bloodhound" >

>    that comes from Cows in India as they are left to rot after dying. 

Very interesting indeed. The next time I go home, I'll look around for cows
that are dead and rotting.....

-parthi