Conference taveng::bagels

    Peanut oil was kosher for Passover this year - some years it wasn't
    available and we had to make do with cotton-seed oil (which tastes
    LOUSY) - I even found Pesachdic olive oil.  Some years someone or other
    has decided that that the peanut oil might have been filtered through
    some kind of bonemeal and thus might not be even kosher, or might not
    be pareve, and it all vanishes from the stores, leaving cottonseed oil
    and margarines derived from it, and of course schmaltz (real good for
    you!).
    
    Apparently peanut oil is OK since it is made from a legume, but corn
    oil isn't since corn is a real grain; peanuts are only kitnios.
    Other than as oil, I think you can "own" kitnios, but you can't use it
    during the holiday (we no longer sell our humetz anyhow, though we used
    to).  You can even use it if there are health reasons to do so, so long
    as you don't use your Passover cookware for it - my sister-in-law
    checked with her (very orthodox) rabbi about the cereal she is supposed
    to feed my nephew.
    
    
    Spelt is barley-like, I believe - I've never eaten it either (that I
    know of).
    
    I can hardly wait for the holiday to be over so my digestive system can
    return to normal...

    All of the kitniot restrictions are "minhag" and thus not especially
    well defined.  They are "custom" and not "law" so the question is
    simply, what custom do you follow? 
    
    In general, there is never a problem with owning kitniot, just eating
    it, if you're following that Ashkenazic minhag.  (Sephardim never
    went along, so they eat it.  Reform doesn't generally consider minhag
    to be binding, though you can of course observe it if you want.)
    
    The Vaad Haraboanim heckshered Coke this year, I don't think only
    in special bottles (they used to make sugar-only for Pesach) but
    all of it, and unless they've changed the recipe again, it's sweetened
    60% high-fructose corn syrup and 40% sugar.  This is consistent
    with the history of the kitniot minhag; rice was uncommon 
    in Poland and was either mixed with chometz flour or stored in
    the same jars.  Some legumes were ground into flour-like stuff that
    also might have gotten confused (looks like a sin) or mixed in.
    Corn, of course, was not known in that era (the minhag dates back
    around 900 years) so its status is less clear, likewise peanuts
    (a legume but not confused with flour).
    
    There's a discussion in an old Topic in this conference, in the
    Halachic Newsletters.

Thanks. I saw the old discussions. Sometimes the answer to questions like this
is "there is no good answer". When that is the case I feel satisfied with the
answer anyway. I was really wondering where the boundary lines are. The answer
appears to be that the boundaries are wherever you want to put them. I don't
feel comfortable consuming corn sweetener or soy sauce on Passover, and now
I understand why. So even tho the answers are vague, I really appreciate them.

Dave

RE: .1

Actually, the Vaad hechshered Diet Coke not regular or real (read Classic) Coke.

Gavriel

    re:.4
    My memory must be faded -- I remembered it as being "Coke, Diet
    Coke, Sprite, and Diet Sprite".  Maybe I misread it.  I never drink
    non-diet anyway, but I don't observe the kitniot anyway, so for me 
    it's an academic issue.
    
    Soy sauce, of course, is made with wheat.  Soy-only tamari exists
    (I knew someone who was allergic to wheat and used it) but it's
    not very common in America.
          efra�n

    Opinions about peanut oil have changed in the last 25 years.  It used to
    be about the only Kosher L'Pesach oil available.  Now that Kosher L'Pesach
    cottonseed oil is widely available, many people prefer it, although some
    consider even cottonseed oil Kitniot.  Olive oil (finally available with
    hasgacha) ought to be acceptable to everyone (halachically if not
    gastronomically -- bake a cake made with olive oil?!)

    All-soybean tamari (soy sauce) is available at health food stores --
    several brands have OK hashgacha (not for Pesach of course).  Since
    observant Ashkenazim don't use any manufactured product without
    Pesach hashgacha, I doubt if observant Sefardim would use tamari.
    I gather that they use only unprocessed products such as rice and
    beans, not Rice Krispies and Heinz beans.  (Someone was telling me
    of a Sefardi who was complaining about having rice at every Pesach
    meal -- sort of like Ashkenazim complaining about all those potatoes.)

    As regards selling Kitniot, I think most observant Ashkenazim do --
    after all, why not, since you won't use it and it's in the same
    locations as real Chametz?

    BTW, most tablets (aspirin, etc.) are allowed by many authorities
    even though they contain Kitniot (corn starch) as a binder.

    Cottonseed oil is controversial in its own right not related to
    Pesach minhag.  Some stores (Bread and Circus comes to mind) don't
    sell products with cottonseed oil, period.  B&C (who doesn't sell
    any refined sugar or MSG either) bans it because it is generally
    contaminated with chemicals.  Since cotton is grown as a fiber,
    not as food, it is never grown "organically" and is generally treated
    with rather heavy chemicals, not like (some) vegetables.  The
    oil is a byproduct, and chemically contaminated too.
    
    Personally I'd be happier if MSG were considered treif; a lot of
    "kosher" food is laden with it.  Since kashrut is not supposed to
    interfere with health, I avoid a lot of heckshered food.

   Last year we had grape seed oil (Yeah, I didn't belive it at 
   first either!).  This year the big hit was walnut oil.

< Note 688.2 >
>  Reform doesn't generally consider minhag
>    to be binding, though you can of course observe it if you want.)
 
Sorry, I can't resist...
Since when does Reform consider *Halacha* "binding"?

re.8:
>   Last year we had grape seed oil (Yeah, I didn't belive it at 
>   first either!).

A typo for rapeseed oil?  This was recently introduced in the US as
canola oil (?).  I don't remember the brand name, but I don't think it
has Pesach hashgacha yet.

    Classic Coke was OK for Passover this year, if not before - we have
    several cans leftover in the basement (we wanted to have a picnic lunch
    the Sunday during Passover since it was the New England Folk Festival -
    I always get mad when that falls during the holiday so that I can't eat
    all the wonderful ethnic food there).  Also Polar "special" ginger ale
    (made with sugar instead of corn sweetener) - I don't drink most soda
    but will tolerate ginger ale.  There were others available too, but
    nothing I would drink if I could get water instead...

    re:.9 by TAV02::SID commenting on my .2
    
>>  Reform doesn't generally consider minhag
>>    to be binding, though you can of course observe it if you want.)

>Sorry, I can't resist...
>Since when does Reform consider *Halacha* "binding"?

    We don't.  Though you can of course observe it if you want.

>< Note 688.10 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >
>
>
>re.8:
>>   Last year we had grape seed oil (Yeah, I didn't belive it at 
>>   first either!).
>
>A typo for rapeseed oil?  This was recently introduced in the US as
>canola oil (?).  I don't remember the brand name, but I don't think it
>has Pesach hashgacha yet.

    Nope, no typo.  That's G-R-A-P-E-S.  Like what they make raisins 
    from.  If I recall correctly, I think it was imported from England.

    Re: .9, .12
    
    Warning:  Major rathole alert!
    
    Judging by the amount of traffic in soc.judiasm on this subject
    in the last couple months, this is an extremely high heat/light
    ratio subject!
    
    				Paul
    
    

If ones minhag is to not eat peanuts on Passover, does the same apply to
peanut butter?

Dave

>If ones minhag is to not eat peanuts on Passover, does the same apply to
>peanut butter?

Yes.

RE: Peanut butter.

My Orthodox and very frum sister-in-law apparently made fresh-ground
peanut butter for her 2 children who are old enough to eat it this
Pesach (not for the infant, obviously). I was puzzled by the apparent
contradiction here. When/if I find more, I'll post it here.

Sam

    Re. .14
    
    Paul, what is soc.judaism?
    
    Bernice

    Before DEC lost usenet distribution we used to get soc.culture.jewish.
    Did it change the name to soc.judaism since?

    Re: .19
    
    What do you mean, "before DEC lost usenet distribution"? Do the
    directions below no longer work?  (soc.culture.jewish is still alive
    and well on the Ultrix system I run on.)
    
    
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Karen,

See what happens when you work on the left coast, you lose track of reality  8^{)

The USENET mail distribution died about 2 months ago.  This was because
management at HLO wanted ROLL to be able to do work related stuff and the
USENET was seriously impacting that work.

In the last couple weeks we (Matt Thomas, Martin Minow, a few other people and
I) have been getting a REAL USENET newsfeed going in the EASYNET.  See the
conference UPSAR::NEWS-BACKBONE for information on where to get VMS based
news readers (VNEWS for character-cell or XRN for DECwindows) and where
the nearest newsserver is to you.

Dick

...also node RHEA disappeared about a year ago (as in RHEA::DECWRL::"mumblyfrats")

          one_who_cherishes_decwrl_forthe_services_it_renders

Hello fellow Bagelers.

I have a question concerning Passover and vegetarianism that I hope you
can answer, please.

I have been invited to a somewhat distant cousin's house for the Passover
Seder.  I wanted to bring a dish, so I promised to make something vegetarian,
only to realize (like I should have forgotten? 8^)) that making it Passover
Kosher will be indeed a challenge.  They mentioned the lack of peas, anything
from corn, as well as the lack of traditional breads and grains, obviously.
However, I'm not too terribly familiar with the Kosher laws, and rather than
question each one, I'd simply like to comply (when we sit down to the Seder,
I'll ask 4 questions about Kosher laws. 8^)).  I think keeping kosher is
very important to these folks.

The question is:  Can anyone kindly share with me a recipe for something
I can bring to the meal (other than standard fare) that is both ovo-lacto
vegetarian and kosher for Passover?  

                                          Thank you very much, .steve.

Re: .23

>I have been invited to a somewhat distant cousin's house for the Passover
>Seder.
> I think keeping kosher is
>very important to these folks.

There was a similar discussion a while back about someone who wanted
to accomodate observant friends by making a kosher barbecue. The consensus
in that case was that making a truly kosher meal involves so many details,
that it would be extremely difficult to accomplish without a someone 
experienced present (as well as being hardly worth the effort of _kashering_
[making kosher] the utensils if not for a long-term commitment).

If this is true for a meal on an ordinary weekend, it is that much more
laborious concerning a Passover dish, during which even trace amounts
of _chametz_ (leaven) are strictly forbidden. I think an uncomfortable 
situation can be averted by simply buying the dish at a supervised
take out store. (You might want to consider bringing some flowers! :^)

Jem

You should ask them what the kashrut standards are.  You should probably let
them know that you don't keep kosher.  After that discussion you may find that
you are still able to make something like a fruit salad which is about the
easiest thing to get right.  You don't know what you can do until you ask them.

Gavriel

    Hi again.
    
    Thanks, and you folks are probably right.  I certainly wouldn't want
    to inadvertantly mess up, and simple is probably better.  I had merely
    thought I would give it a well-intentioned shot.  If anyone comes up 
    with anything, please post it.
    
    Another option is to offer to bring the wine, or flowers, I guess.  If
    I can't think of anything, I may go that route.
    
                                       Thanks, .steve.

>    Another option is to offer to bring the wine, or flowers, I guess.  If
>    I can't think of anything, I may go that route.
    
	Yet another thing to be careful of....

	Many observant people in the US do not use the more "widely
	distributed" or well-known Kosher wines, such as Maneschewitz.
	If your hosts are observant, and if you're going to bring wine,
	I'd recommend that you bring Kedem or Carmel.

	Also, when you buy the wine (assuming you're in a shop like a kosher
	grocery), ask a clerk to make sure that the wine is "mevushal".
	This will always be printed on the label, but usually in Hebrew.

don feinberg

Regarding the fiber question, as Jem said, Metamucil is kosher l'Pesach.
There's also something called Fiberguard, which is listed as a fiber
supplement.  I looked at that Manischewitz cereal mentioned in a couple
of replies, and it's hardly high fiber.  Ingredients are cake meal,
potato starch, and sugar.

Regarding crossing the International Date Line, according to "The Laws
of Pesach: A Digest" by Rabbi Avrohom Blumenkrantz, "Those who travel
from home to places where Shabbos or Yom Tov do not coincide with the
Shabbos and Yom Tov in their home country (e.g. the Orient) must be
aware that according to most authorities, Shabbos follows them (in the
same manner as the chometz follows them).  Their business must be closed,
even though it is not Shabbos or Yom Tov in their home country.  When
it is a weekday in the visiting country and Shabbos or Yom Tov in their
home country, the business must also be closed, following ther opinion
of those authorities who hold that the place of business dicates its closing."

He goes on to talk about what to do if you must cross the International
Date Line during Sefiras HaOmer (counting of the Omer).  Basically, you
should count your regular sefira, then the local sefira, both without
a bracha.  When you go home, you can resume counting with a bracha.
If you remain away from home for Shavuos, you should keep it in accordance
to your personal count, but refrain from public melacha when it's Shavuos
according to the local count.

He concludes by saying, "Not all authorities may agree with the above
decision.  Therefore, it is appropriate to consult your Moro D'asro
for a decision."