Conference taveng::bagels

    I don't have a specific reply to your questions, but the question
    implies that you are against Israel-S.A. relations. My feeling is
    that although Apartheid is deplorable, most other African nations
    are hardly what one would consider democratic. Many are outright
    dictatorships, without even pretending otherwise. Why is there no
    international furor over the many massacres that occur in Black
    African, not to mention North African nations.
    	Given these facts I feel it is ludicrous to ask Israel to break
    off relations with a country that has traditionally been a strong
    ally, both of herself and the U.S.. Israel doesn't have that many
    friends that she can pick and choose her buddies.
    	Thank you for bringing up this issue, because it is one that
    many people feel strongly about, but unfortunately seem afraid to
    talk about. A good open debate is really what's needed.
    

    Actually, I wondered what type of cooperation currently
    exists. Also, whether there is indeed an effort, or
    movement (as reported) within the Israeli cabinet or
    Knesset to change the nature of the Israeli/RSA relationship.
    
    I would prefer the abbreviation RSA for this discussion
    since "S.A." is a bit ambiguous. For example, "S.A."
    might be understood to include Namibia, Angola etc., where
    mercenaries and "regular army" from RSA (as well as other
    countries) are sometimes active.
    
    Now, is there a United Nations (or other) arms embargo
    against RSA? If so, is it observed by most countries?
    

.2>            Also, whether there is indeed an effort, or
.2>    movement (as reported) within the Israeli cabinet or
.2>    Knesset to change the nature of the Israeli/RSA relationship.

The Israeli cabinet voted last year not to initiate any new agreements with
the South African government.  The decision was criticized by various people
as being either too much or too little.

.2>    Now, is there a United Nations (or other) arms embargo
.2>    against RSA? If so, is it observed by most countries?

There is a UN arms embargo, about which I read a couple of years ago that
it is the only measure against South Africa that had had any significant
effect.  The effect, by the way, was that South Africa had greatly increased
the size of its own defence industries.

    There also are Trade Embargoes, sports meetings with RSA teams and
    athletes are banned.
    
    The US and most Western European countries are following these
    regulations.
    
    RSA is considered as an extremely racist country. Hence, the danger for
    Israel is to be considered supporting racism (only one step to being
    considered racist) when maintaining the alliance with RSA. I'm sure
    that this, in conjunction with Israel's loss of image due to the
    intifada events (which I have seen references of racism being made to,
    as well), can provide several 'justifications' to anti-semitic
    polemism.
    
    The white/black, democracy/dictatorship, solid economy/large debt,
    argument in .1 is misleading, by the way, since you have the same
    rubbish in "white only" countries, all the same.

    Here's some of the background, from my perspective.
    
    Explainingly yours,
    
    Chris

    	The fact that it has any relations at all with South Africa has
    been a well-usedweapon by Israel's enemies.  Have you noticed that you
    have heard less of this in recent years?  That's because Israel made
    public information that its dealings with South Africa were smaller (in
    percentage of GNP and in absolute dollars) than those of many countries
    which have criticized these dealings.  South Africa's largest supplier
    of petroleum, for example, is Saudi Arabia.  It took some research on
    Israel's part to expose this, since this trade goes via intermediaries
    to cover the Arabs' activities.

    	I feel that it is still wrong for Israel to deal with South Africa
    at all, but I believe that many other countries deserve much stronger
    condemnation in this area.

    			David

    re .5
    
    I think that Israel is largely seen as a country that rose up against
    all odds against oppression and persecution.  As a result, it is hardly
    expected that it will do business with another country known for
    persecuting the vast majority of its people.  Selling arms to RSA
    is aiding and abetting in the suppression of many of its people.

    re .6                                      
    
    Whatever trade Israel had over the last few years with South Africa
    has been significantly reduced. It has been government policy to
    reduce trade in all forms. 
    
    So when Israel is singled out *specifically* for its trade with South
    Africa, it smacks of double-standards and hypocricy.
    
>>                                           As a result, it is hardly
>>    expected that it will do business with another country known for
>>    persecuting the vast majority of its people.
    
    You are quite right that no government should trade with a country that
    represses segments of its population. However, if that was the case I
    think international trade would be limited between um er ........ :-) 
                                                          
    							....... Monty

    re .7
    
    I think that Israel is generally perceived as a country of people who
    got together in order to end persecution of themselves by other people,
    or at least to cut out a place where they may be somewhat free of this
    kind of persecution.  The general perception is more along moral, for
    lack of a better word, lines.  The United States was formed in an
    attempt to establish freedom - of speech, religion, etc.  As such, when
    the United States does something repressive along those lines, people
    become outraged. 
    
    When Israel is singled out it *may* be as a result of it's history.

    I realize that there are many who single out Israel due to "ulterior
    motives."  This makes it all the more difficult to see the forest
    from the trees.     

    Is it still unclear what types of weaponry (specifically)
    Israel has (in the recent past) been selling to R.S.A. ?
    
    Also, I suppose we don't know exactly what types of weaponry
    have been the subject of co-development (research & design,
    manufacturing methods, co-manufacturing) between Israel and the
    Republic of South Africa, do we?
    
    I recall seeing a tv documentary strongly suggesting that
    Israel served as a transhipment point for advanced Canadian
    artillery illegally exported to the R.S.A., with US government
    connivance. [This was the ultra-long-range artillery
    developed by the Canadian firm Space Research.]
    
    Of course there was the *alleged* cooperation between
    Israel and RSA on nuclear weapons/warhead development,
    but we've never seen any direct evidence, Dimona and
    Vanunnu (sp?) included, have we?
    
    It would be interesting to know if the Knesset's change
    of posture regarding Israel's weapons trade with R.S.A.
    was imposed by popular Israeli opinion, or perhaps by
    demand of some foreign power, etc.

    Last night's CBS-TV News (?) carried a story about military
    cooperation between Israel and Republic of South Africa.
    I didn't catch the whole piece, but it seemed to focus
    on a long-range-missile codevelopment project between
    the two countries.
    
    It confirmed that about 2 years ago the Israeli Knesset
    decided that no additional (new) military projects with R.S.A.
    would be initiated. The news article said that some current
    military codevelopments have been underway for up to 10 years,
    and apparently will be continuing.
    
    It said that the Israeli Defense Ministry refused any comment
    on the reported missile codevelopment with R.S.A., and that
    such information is considered "state secret" by the Ministry.
                           
    Also appearing was a hand-wringing US Congressman, complaining
    that the USA (State Dept. or military assisitance orgs.?)
    should take some position or assert some pressure (or similar)
    on Israel regarding Israeli military links with R.S.A.,
    because the US subsidizes Israel (while Israel seems to violate
    UN arm embargo against RSA???). Sorry, I didn't catch the
    congressman's name or district.
    
    I believe this was CBS, although it might have been NBC.
    Did any other BAGEL participants happen to see this on
    TV news last night?
                     	thanks
    			John

    The Today show this morning had something about Israel having an
    agreement with South Africa to develop nuclear missiles.  They said
    that Israel was trading technology for uranium which South Africa has.
    
    I figure there will be something more substantial in the newspapers in
    the next couple days.
    
    				Paul
    

    This is very funny. Israel is now in the process of requesting
    supercomputer technology commonly used for missile development,
    and some Congresspeople are a bit worried about it. I wonder if
    they have put 2+2 together...
    
    						Jon Campbell

    >This is very funny. Israel is now in the process of requesting
    >supercomputer technology commonly used for missile development,
    >and some Congresspeople are a bit worried about it. I wonder if
    >they have put 2+2 together...

What are you implying, that Israel would transfer that technology to South
Africa?

--David

    	What is "supercomputer technology commonly used for missile
    development"? Are they trying to buy a supercomputer, a vectorizing
    compiler, access to supercomputer centers in the US?
    	We ram our supercomputers down Japan's throat, all the while
    punishing Toshiba for selling restricted technology to USSR. Should we
    deny Israel "supercomputer technology" because they cooperate with RSA?
    Which could be more harmful to US interests - a superquiet nuclear sub
    fleet in the hands of Soviet Politburo, or a medium-range missile in
    the hands of De Klerk?
    
    DG

    Speaking of RSA/Israeli nuclear weapons cooperation,
    have we heard much from Mordechi Vanunu lately?
       
    The last I heard, he had been bundled up (by the Mossad,
    in a big suitcase) in Europe, injected with knockout serum,
    and flown, express delivery, to Israel.
    
    1)  Did Mordechi have a smooth flight, and how complete was
        his recovery from the much feared jet-lag effect?
        
    2)  Could an observer tell, from the ink on Mordechi's hands,
        what handwriting was on the wall?
    
    3)  Do all Israeli nuclear (Dimona) technicians travel by air
        "first class", or only those with seniority, like Vanunu?
    
    		thanks
    		John
    

    I guess Andrei Sakharov is much more famous than
    Mordechi Vanunu. Perhaps for good reason. There
    are, however, some slight similarities between them,
    wouldn't you say?
    
    I'll confess I haven't heard much about Mordechi Vanunu
    lately, and don't really know how to spell his name.
    I'm unsure whether there's is a Gulag in Isreal, for
    such "traitors" to the state. Did Mordechi Vanunu enjoy
    the privilege of a show trial?
    
    *Presumably* Vanunu worked on N-weapons a tad smaller than
    the ones Andrei Sakharov fathered. One seemingly common thread
    is that each, for whatever reason, "saw the error of his ways",
    had "change of heart", and got "hauled away by authorities
    of the state" as punishment.
    
    The information I've heard about Mordechi Vanunu is
    quite sketchy and stale. I invite corrections from
    anyone with news more recent or accurate.

    	I think you information on both is quite "sketchy and stale".
    Sakharov was a nuclear scientist, a voice of moral authority, and
    a normal man. He never "saw the error of his ways", had "change of
    heart", and "got hauled away by authorities". He was quite proud of
    his work in nuclear physics, and his disagreement with the
    "authorities" involved such things as the political prisoners, economic
    and bueraucratic corruption of the state, and too many other things to
    mention.
    	Vanunu is in a different class altogether. To compare them the way
    you just did is not unlike setting the Rosenbergs and Martin Luther
    King side by side, as two equal examples of tireless civil rights
    workers.
    
    DG

    Thanks DG, for shedding some light on Vanunu. At least I'm
    not the ONLY one to have mentioned his name here in BAGELS.
    I guess then that you agree with my assertion that any
    similarity between Vanunu and Sakharov is only "slight", or
    "seeming" ?

.16>    I'll confess I haven't heard much about Mordechi Vanunu
.16>    lately, and don't really know how to spell his name.
.16>    I'm unsure whether there's is a Gulag in Isreal, for
.16>    such "traitors" to the state. Did Mordechi Vanunu enjoy
.16>    the privilege of a show trial?

Mordechai Vanunu worked as a technician at a government facility with rather
strict security regulations.  He decided to leave the facility and sell
to a foreign newspaper secret information that he learned on the job.  There
is no Gulag in Israel, but there are laws and a prison system, and selling
such secrets is as much against the law in Israel as it would be in any
other country.

Vanunu certainly did not have a show trial.  In fact, given his tendency
to blurt out government secrets at the drop of a hat, the police and
prosecution did their best to keep him away from the press and public.
He was tried and convicted; if I remember correctly, he got 18 or 20 years.

Andrei Sakharov, on the other hand, was one of the leading scientists in
the Soviet nuclear weapons program.  He never, ever did anything to compromise
the security of that program.  Much later, he became one of the leading
human rights activists in his country.  As an honorable and patriotic man,
he probably didn't see any conflict between this and his earlier work.

I would say that there is not even a slight similarity between the two men,
aside from the fact that neither ever had anything to do with any cooperation
between Israel and South Africa (the topic of this note).

    	Eric answered this far better than I ever could. Maybe you, 
    Mcallen, can enlighten the public as to what similarities you see
    between Vanunu, Sakharov, South Africa, and all the other conspiracies
    in the world ;-) Perhaps this is better taken back to the Soapbox, and
    discussed in a manly fashion there ;-).
    
    DG

    re 668.19 by ERICG:
    
    Thanks for the clarification re Mordechi Vanunu.
    You mentioned that he was tried and convicted. Was
    Vanunu also "extradited" from a foreign country?
    If so, from which country? Also, by a legal process
    recognized by that foreign country?
    
    I believe you also mentioned that the police and
    prosecution endeavored to keep the leaky Vanunu from
    the press. How successful were they, and in jail, is he
    still somewhat incommunicado? And, what had Vanunu written
    on his hand, which he later showed to the press?
    
    Oh, yes, of what crime(s) was Vanunu convicted? Treason,
    espionage, official-secrets, cold feet, harboring
    unapproved scruples...etc.?
    
    Also, some accounts implied that Vanunu, during his
    work at Dimona, inadvertantly learned that the actual
    purpose of Isreal's nuclear-weapons-arsenal was somehow
    different (and shockingly so) from what was generally
    assumed to be the purpose. Any comments on these allegations
    by Vanunu? Of course, this all could have been a clever ploy
    by Mordechi Vanunu to drive up the selling_price of his "story"!
    
    Have the Israeli authorities, or anyone else, revealed
    the selling_price Vanunu was allegedly paid for his "story"?
    From replies appearing so far, I suppose it will be years or
    perhaps decades before Vanunu is accorded any official
    recognition as a folk-hero in Israel, if ever. Would you agree?
    
    	thanks

    RE: 668.21

    >                               I suppose it will be years or
    >perhaps decades before Vanunu is accorded any official
    >recognition as a folk-hero in Israel, if ever. Would you agree?

    Did you say what you mean?  "Folk-hero" is not an "official" category
    in any society I know of.  In the case of Vannunu, I doubt he will be
    considered any kind of a hero in Israel.

    There is something implicit in this question that bothers me, and that
    is the idea that somebody who weakens Israel's security must be doing a
    good thing. (If I've read something into your questions that you did
    not mean, please clarify.)

    There are a lot of people, in Israel and elsewhere, who advocate taking
    certain kinds of risks that might help achieve peace, but I no of
    none--other than enemies of Israel--who applaud what Vannunu did.

                                        Aaron

    If some medium levelled manager / scientist / whatever involved in the
    "Stealth Bomber" program walked off and told the international press
    all he knows about this program, would he NOT have to face a trial in
    the US, would US authorities NOT keep him away from the press, would the
    US population EVER consider him as a "folk-hero"?
    
    Wonderingly yours,
    
    Chris

    I'm still hoping someone will explain how Vanunu was
    "extradited" to Israel, if in fact, he was.
    And, from where.
    		thanks
    		John

    	Wasn't he "lured" to Cyprus or some such place from London, and
    then abducted and brought to Israel? I am not sure, is it important?
    Countries often go to amazing lengths to get control of traitors or
    otherwise dangerous people abroad. For example, US has recently invaded
    a whole country, partly to get an alleged drug baron into a courtroom.
    Prior to that, there have been multiple occasions of terrorists
    snatched abroad by Western countries and bundled away, or of spies on
    the run being apprehended by various intelligene agencies. I wouldn't
    be surprised to see a traitor like Vanunu, who sold national security
    information to a newspaper, be abducted in a sting operation. 
    
    DG

    John --

    Coyness doesn't become you.  Why do you keep asking questions for
    which you know the answers?

    Maybe he's waiting for the as obvious windup to be placed?

    I suppose it's obvious that Mandela and Arafat have
    "wound up" in each other's arms. (see topic 897)
    Is one's enemy's friend's enemy normally likely to
    be one's friend?
    
    And for how long? Was it (.27) worth waiting, Chris?
    

    Re:  Mordechai Vanunu (668.15 etc.), the technician from
    Israel's Dimona nuclear [incl. weapons] facility:
    
    The movie (film) "Secret Weapon" is about Mordechai Vanunu,
    his actions, and the methods used by Israeli intelligence
    (Mossad etc.) to capture Vanunu. Not knowing the facts
    of the Vanunu case, it is hard to say how realistic
    the film "Secret Weapon" is. 
    
    The film:
    
    o	portrayed Vanunu as totally disinterested in money for his
    	"story", although his South American "buddy" (portrayed
    	as unethical) Felix wanted to milk the story for maximum $$$.
    
    o	said Vanunu had leftist and arab friends during
    	school and prior to his employment at the Dimona weapons plant.
    
    o	didn't mention RSA (I'll create a dedicated Vanunu topic
    	if the RSA/Dimona/Vanunu combination here bothers anyone).
    
    o	showed Vanunu being lured (from Australia?) to Rome by a female
    	Mossad agent, where he was then manacled, drugged, crated and
    	flown out by the capable Mossad team. (Perhaps Cyprus was
    	a waypoint?)
    
    o	emphasised that the weapons from Dimona might number in the
    	100's, and include thermonuclear types, judging from production
    	of the Lithium-6 isotope at Dimona.
    
    o	showed no ill-treatment of Vanunu at hands of Mossad, other
    	than the obvious, illegal forcible kidnapping of him from Rome,
    	presumably due to Israel's inability (or unwillingness?)
    	to secure legal extradition of Vanunu, and assorted electronic
    	surveillance.
    
    o	indicated Vanunu was convicted of espionage and treason, and
    	sentenced to 18 years emprisonment.
    
    o	alluded to the slight possiblility Vanunu was a plant, by
    	"Arabs" to weaken Isreal, or by Israel itself, to at last
    	"announce" its new N-weapons capability.
    
    o	showed Vanunu's conversion to Christianity after leaving
    	Dimona; and prior to his encounter with the female
    	Mossad agent, his being a virgin, due to his scruples
    	about premarital sex.
    
    o	showed the Mossad chief infuriated that Dimona had
    	hired (for 6 years) an Isreali (of Morrocan descent?) with
    	past Leftist and Arab associations to work in the
    	N-weapons production facility.
               
    Don't know how accurate any of the above is. I would say
    the film was not "sensational" or over-acted. It also
    portrayed some of the Mossad agents as having reservations
    about abducting Vanunu. (Some wanted to "off" him on the spot.)
    

.29>    The film:
.29>
.29>    o	didn't mention RSA ...

Ah, but did they discuss Vanunu's connections with the Iran-Contra scandal?


.29>    o	showed Vanunu's ... being a virgin ...

I'm somewhat curious as to how they did this, but am not sure that I really
want to know.

    
>    o	showed the Mossad chief infuriated that Dimona had
>    	hired (for 6 years) an Isreali (of Morrocan descent?) with

  Where did you get the Morrocan crack from?  The film or your 
  imagination?

    re 668.31 by GOLDMAN:
    In the film, "Vanunu" explained how his parents had
    come to Israel from Morocco (or maybe Tunisia).
    The film's "Mossad chief" *may* have mentioned it.
    I have no idea whether Mordechai Vanunu's parents
    actually were Moroccan citizens, or came from
    Morocco, etc.
    

    Re 668.30 by ERICG:
    
    A connection between Vanunu and the Iran-Contra episode?
    Oh, you must mean Mike Harari (sp?), the former Mossad
    covert ops chief who was (and was_not) captured by the US Army
    during the recent Panama invasion. No, the film didn't mention
    Mike Harari by name, although an unnamed "Mossad chief" was
    repeatedly depicted.
    
    The film developed the theme of Vanunu's virginity to the
    extent that the female Mossad agent objected on moral
    as well as pragmatic grounds that her seduction of Vanunu
    would fail, as he sought companionship, not sex, and
    seemed virginal. Also, greedy "Felix", failing to coax
    Vanunu to enter a bordello, cajoled Vanunu into admitting
    he was a virgin. I'd say the film developed a parallel
    between Vanunu's sexual abstinence and his portrayed
    fatalistic, naivly idealistic determination to divulge
    the thermonuclear secrets of Dimona.
    

    FYI, there's the beginnings of a little Vanunu discussion
    in SOAPBOX topic 109.
    
    Apparently there was a "60 Minutes" TV show last night
    which mentioned Mordechai Vanunu, apparently triggering
    the SOAPBOX chitchat. Did anyone see it (60 Minutes) ?
    
    I missed it.
    

    I saw the 60 minutes program on this.  I also have it on tape.
    I haven't read the SOAPBOX discussion;  the 60 minutes number was
    basically just a explanation of what he'd done, the data that was
    published, how he was captured, and Ehud Olmert trying to keep a
    straight face while saying that the capture was legal.
    

	Have Usenet and Soapbox been slow lately?

DG

I have shut down this note for the duration of the crisis.  If sensitivity
can not be shown to people who are subject to missle attack, then I can't
be responsible for the responses and do not have the patience to try to keep
this in line.

Shavuah tov,
Gav