Conference taveng::bagels

    What makes you think that our people are any better than any other
    people, such as the Khomeini-ites?  Human nature is the same throughout
    the world.
    

    I seriously doubt that the people of Israel would have accepted
    the occupation of a foreign embassy and the holding as hostages
    of its occupants.  Tell me that the people of Israel live in a 
    democratic state (as opposed to a theocracy), and I will tell you
    that they have so willed it.  
    
    It is not a question of "better" or "worse"; it is a matter of the
    culture.  What happened at the wall can be expected of those who
    perpetrated it.  The same can be said of what happened in Terehan,
    or indeed, Beirut.  

    re .2: your reply is not invalidating .1
    
    It merely brings up the issue of 'leadership' and 'control' and
    'armed minority vs. unarmed majority'. Eternal ratholes.
    
    Precisingly yours,
    
    Chris

    re. 3
    
    I would like to be able to respond to your reply, but I must confess
    that I do not understand it.
    
    Herb

    Sorry for the shortness in .3, Herb. You were referring to the
    difference in "culture". My point is that this judgment is incorrect,
    and, even if valid, does not counterdict .1
    
    Persian culture, per se, has had fruitful influence on many other
    cultures (Byzantine, Indian, etc...) and has to be counted as one
    of the major cultures, worldwide.
    
    Now, you say that the (Jewish? Democratic?) culture of Israel would not
    allow an embassy to be occupied. And what if this happened after an
    Army Putsch? All your culture will not enable you to stop this event if
    a gun is pointed at your head. And this is exactly what's happening in
    Iran: an armed minority holds an entire people as hostage. They can do
    nothing against it, despite all their culture.
    
    I had the occasion to sit next to an Iranian businessman on one of my
    recent flights: he made it plain clear to me that a vast majority of
    the population want the ayatollahs to disappear. Had they known what
    would come down on them, they'd had kept Reza Pahlevi any time.
    
    Oh, yes: he seemed to be a very literate, humanistically oriented
    person. Despite this fact, he and his alikes could not stop the
    American Embassy to be occupied (we can't assume that he is the
    only humanist in Iran, can we?).
    
    .1 has some points when he says that people are very similar,
    throughout the world.
    
    Elaboratingly yours,
    
    Chris

    I think that there are some interesting conflicting arguments surfacing
    in this conference.  One of the contributors claims that all people
    are alike; Jews are no different from any others.
    
    This argument, I think, is in reponse to a perception that the 
    nations (goyim) have greater expectations of Jews, and they 
    demonstrate delight when these expectations are dashed.  Jews, 
    quite rightly, see these greater expectations, as expressions of
    latent anti-semitism, and as a consequence, are quick to say, 
    "Why do you expect more from us?  We are no different than you."
    
    I must, however, confess that I become impatient at the gentle 
    admonition that all people are the same.  Individuals
    can be different, and so can people.  We are not talking "better"
    or "worse".  Judgement according to the latter depends on the local 
    moral code.  But anyone is free to judge anyone else's moral code.
    
    Insofar as the suggestion that an army "putsch" might change the
    character of Israeli response to a public event is concerned, I
    can only say that it hasn't occurred.  And that it hasn't, says 
    something about the nature of the people and the society they have
    chosen to build. I think that it might also be worth noting (in
    reply to the previous response) that the people of Israel have,
    for the past 41 years, been living with guns aimed at their head.
    
    And, as an aside, I must repeat what my wife's cousin told me 
    in Tel Aviv, in 1965, as we were going to join the crowd on 
    Dizingoff to watch the Independance Day parade.  He took me aside
    and whispered, "Watch your pockets, an eyd a goniff is ech a goniff
    (even a Jewish thief is a thief)"

It was reported here that the Dalai Lama was jeered when he visited the Kotel
this week.  What was it all about?

    The radio reported last week that India explicitly prohibited the Dalai
    Lama from attending an international human rights conference in New
    Delhi (?) on the subject of - you guessed it - Tibet.  India also
    supposedly blocked visas for a number of foreign delegates.  All this
    for fear of angering China, with whom India enjoys warmer relations of
    late.
    
    I recently saw a very moving video on public television about the
    Tibetan situation, from the point of view of two children of ex-pats
    now living in Canada.  It reiterated the information about the
    near-genocide occuring there.  I had already known about the
    destruction of monasteries, restrictions on religious study, and
    killing of many Tibetans.
    
    What I hadn't known was that that the Chinese use political prisoners
    as involuntary blood donors, to the point where they pass out. 
    Gruesome.  And that they are deforesting the country.  And that they
    forcibly abort pregnant women.  Many pregnant women make a long journey
    on foot across the mountains to India to deliver their babies, then
    return to Tibet so their families there are not endangered.
    
    And, there is very weak international support for the Tibetan cause.
    The video showed a visit by the Dalai Lama to Canada.  When he tried to
    speak in the Parliament there, he was rebuffed.  The world seems
    willing to just write off Tibet.  Every time I hear news about the US's
    most-favored-nation trading status for China, and fluctuations in its
    support based on release or detention of a few dissidents, all I can
    think about is the continuing repression in Tibet.
    
    As a Jew, I could really relate to the situation in Tibet.  It all
    sounds so familiar and so sad.
    
    Laura

    Hi Laura,
    
    I am a supporter of Tibet and have been for many years and am an
    Indian.  I would like to make a comment about the following:
    
    >The radio reported last week that India explicitly prohibited the
    >Dalai Lama from attending an international human rights conference in New
    >Delhi (?) on the subject of - you guessed it - Tibet.  India also
    >supposedly blocked visas for a number of foreign delegates.  All this
    >for fear of angering China, with whom India enjoys warmer relations
    >of late.
    
    We Indians have never forgotten what had happened to us in 1962, China
    attacked us after signing a friendship treaty.  The treaty required
    both sides to move n miles away from the boarder, the Indians did but
    the Chinese didn't.  We were attacked and lost 50-60,000 kms of India
    that is still occupied by China not to mention the death of Indians.
    
    Why you may ask does India act in such a manner towards the Tibetens. 
    We have a problem in that the US and the western countries have been
    siding with China (an example being the MFN status of China when it
    comes to trade).  India has had economic sanctions against her in terms
    of high technology exports, grants etc. unless India signs the NPT. 
    China on the other hand has nuclear missiles pointing at us and the US
    wants India to disarm.
    
    Do you really believe India is acting the way it is because it does not
    respect the Tibetans rights ?  We have China to the north and north
    east, Pakistan to west and the US in the Indian ocean.  What do you
    expect us to do ?  Who do you think we should trust if there was a war
    between China and India ?  The US will take the side of China and/or
    Pakistan and the other European nations will no doubt do the same not
    to mention the Islamic nations.  India does not "enjoys warmer
    relations" it's a marriage of convience.  At least India unlike Israel
    did not trade or have diplomatic relations with Soth Africa.
    
    >I recently saw a very moving video on public television about the
    >Tibetan situation, from the point of view of two children of ex-pats
    >now living in Canada.  It reiterated the information about the
    >near-genocide occuring there.  I had already known about the
    >destruction of monasteries, restrictions on religious study, and
    >killing of many Tibetans.
    
    I have been a member of a Tibetan organisation and have heard about
    these things from the nuns and monks and seen the wounds.  There is
    genocide and it's happening today and has been happen since 1952.  It's
    far worse then you think.
    
    >As a Jew, I could really relate to the situation in Tibet.  It all
    >sounds so familiar and so sad.
    
    As a human being and a Hindu I too feel for them.  Don't forget we
    meaning the Hindus suffered 1000 years of oppression by the mogals and a 
    further 250 by the British and other European  powers. 100's of
    millions of Hindus have been killed and forced out of parts of India
    now called Pakistan and Bangladesh.  My Grandfather was the only person
    in the family who escaped Multan which is Pakistan the rest of the
    family were slaughtered.  We lost our family members, homes and our
    country was devided and still is.  All of this over religion that had
    it's roots in the mid-east.  My mother still remembers the rivers in
    the state of Punjab (means state of five rivers) turning red with the
    colour of blood of Hindus, seeing women who had been raped, had their
    breast cut off etc.
     
    So I hope that you can see that most Indian are sympathtic ro the
    Tibentan cause.  I also hope that you can see the enormous pressure
    India is under from the US and others.  I as an Indian do not take the
    Tibetan suffering lightly they share alot in terms of culture, religion  
    and language (written).  It's not "It all sounds so familiar and so
    sad." there is alot more behind this ask the lovers of freedom and
    democracy ie the US to stop playing games with Tibetan lives.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil

    Gerald, the reports I saw showed the Dalai Lama praying at the Kotel
    and meeting with the Chief Rabbi.  He looked as if he was enjoying his
    visit.
    
    It is always possible though that some extremists protested.  About
    what?  Who knows!  There is always someone to protest about any subject
    or person you can think of.  That's democracy for you!
    
    Shalom v'chag pesach sameuch
    Baruch

    Re 667.9
    
    Sethi, I read your note with interest and understanding of your
    position as an Indian.  However, I could have done without the comment
    about India not trading and having diplomatic relations with South Africa
    as Israel did!  Why not say "as Israel, the US, most European nations,
    etc, etc......."?  Your points would be far more effective if you kept
    to the point and did not dilute them by shooting barbs in another
    direction.  International relations are difficult enough already.
    
    There has been a warming of relations between India and Israel in
    recent times.  This can only benefit both countries.
    
    By the way, I believe you live in Australia.  OK, no comments about
    treatment of Aborigines, but you get my point!
    
    Shalom
    Baruch

	>At least India unlike Israel did not trade or have diplomatic 
    	>relations with Soth Africa.
    
    India was not boycotted by more than half the countries in the world,
    Arab, Islamic, and 'like-minded'.  Yes, Israel had trading
    relationships with some unsavoury governments, but where we supposed to
    replenish the foreign reserve supply from?  And India has conducted
    unofficial and official relationships with equally unsavoury
    governments as well, so let's call a spade a spade.  Also, there was a
    very brisk 'under-the-table' trading relationship between Israel and 
    India prior to mutual recognition, all done through the British embassy
    in Tel Aviv.
    
    Chag sameach,
    /d.c.

    Hi Barunh,

    >position as an Indian.  However, I could have done without the comment
    >about India not trading and having diplomatic relations with South
    >Africa as Israel did!  Why not say "as Israel, the US, most European
    >nations, etc, etc......."?  Your points would be far more effective if 
    >you kept

    But this was a good way to make the point is it not.  I drew your
    attention to the fact that sometimes you have to go to bed with the
    enemy to survive, as did Israel.  So my note has been effective in
    making a point.  It's all to easy to conclude that India does not
    support the Tibetans now you have a complete picture.  Further I hope
    that you can see the similarities between Israel and India.

    I have never had any ill feelings towards Jews nor have I ever indulged
    in anti-Jewish behaviour, I am a supporter of Israel.  However I may
    not agree with your religious views etc. but I have seen a number of
    Jews who have been understanding and supportive.  Of course you will
    find those who are not but that happens in all societies.

    >By the way, I believe you live in Australia.  OK, no comments about
    >treatment of Aborigines, but you get my point!
     
    Unfortunately I don't as I support the right of the Aborigines and am
    against the racist views of New Australian of European background.  I
    have Aboriginal friends and some who are members of my local temple.  I
    am a native Asian and Australia is a part of Asia.  The name Australia
    comes from the Latin Australasia meaning Southern Asia.  I am doing no
    less then a European does when he or she goes from one part of Europe
    to another.  Many a times I have been called a black bas***d in this
    country not to mention other things that have happened.  I agree with
    you 100% that the treatment of Aborigines, leaves a lot to be desired.

    I want to address the issue of the Dalai Lama and his prayer at the
    Wall.  Buddhism does not have a belief in "G-d" if the Lama was "praying"
    it must be said that he was not.  A Buddhist meditates and his
    meditation was more then likely a meditation for peace, love and
    compassion for all beings, irrespective of the fact that the living
    being is a human being or an animal.

    From a Hindus point of view all beings are equal before G-d, because we
    are the sprite soul trapped in this body.  We are here as a temporarily
    and each one of us is the eternal servant of G-d, except some of
    forget. We chase the false goal of identifying ourselves with our body
    etc.  Our true identity is hidden because we are too busy holding onto
    temporary things hence the wars and genocides.  To me as a Hindu it
    sounds absurd that all of a sudden in Israel G-d appeared and he was the
    one true G-d.  I said this to a Jew once and he replied that Jews don't
    have a monopoly over G-d and he accepted that G-d is independent of us
    and our needs.

    Now for a Jew to find the Dalai Lama offensive is very offensive !!!
    There is a lack of understanding and I hope that we who have suffered
    through out history and have very similar experiences can have a
    productive dialogue and reach an understanding.  I hope that people in
    this conference will have a better understanding of Hindus and see a
    commonalty in all aspects.

    Regards,

    Sunil

    The purpose of my quote of the news about the Dalai Lama and the human
    rights conference was not to criticize India, but just to empathize
    with the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans who have suffered so much.
    
    The news report pointed out, and I'll reiterate, that India has all
    along provided a home for a large colony of Tibetans in exile.
    
    One thing I'll say about India and Israel, is that the Indians and the
    Jews have much in common.  We are both concerned with doing the right
    thing, we get defensive when criticized, and we have long memories.  
    ;-)
    
    Laura

    Hi Laura,

    >One thing I'll say about India and Israel, is that the Indians and the
    >Jews have much in common.  We are both concerned with doing the right
    >thing, we get defensive when criticized, and we have long memories.  
    >;-)

    I accept your answer of course, I just wanted to make it very clear
    what I felt.  When I find a Jewish person who is open and willing to
    discuss things with me and the walls of distrust come down, I find a
    great deal in common with a Jew.  I have no religious axe to grind nor
    do I want to indulge in anti-Jewish behaviour.  Matter afact I wish I
    could meet people of other faiths who are equally as tolerant as Jews.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil