Conference taveng::bagels

I think it is more complicated than is usually thought.

By tradition Jews do not kneel except during the services on
the High Holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur). Why?

Because in the Temple (Beit Hamikdash)
the people did kneel and fall prostrate when they heard the High Priest
pronounce the Tetragrammaton or Ineffable name of God during the Yom Kippur 
service. In remembrance of that we do kneel and bow on Yom Kippur when the
High Priest's service is described. 

In addition, we kneel and fall prostrate when the Aleinu is recited, during
the Rosh Hashana as well as Yom Kippur Mussaf service. Once again, this is a
very "solemn" moment in the service.

That Daniel or any other Biblical character bowed or knelt does not surprise
me, inasmuch as what we are talking about here is a tradition that is
obviously later than the Biblical period.

By the way, since we are right now about to celebrate Purim, consider this:
all the problems came about because Mordechai would not bow down to Haman,
right? Why didn't he bow down? The Megillah suggests that it was because
he was a Jew (not that he happened to dislike or disrespect Haman).
But this obviously bothered the Rabbinic commentaries, since there is no
LAW against bowing down to a king or prince (as offensive as that might be
to OUR sensibilities), especially if it is a matter of life and death!
So the Rabbinic commentaries suggest that Haman had declared himself a god,
which is why Mordechai would not bow down, or that he wore an idolatrous
pendant.

Is the Congregationalist feeling against kneeling a polemical point against
Roman Catholicism and its kneeling? I was not aware of that and I find it
very interesting. But the thing is: you could correctly explain a dislike
of kneeling as a democratic-theistic point, in the case of a religious
system rooted in modern times. I don't think you can do the same for Jewish
feelings about this issue, since it goes back so far into pre-democratic
times when kneeling, bowing to rulers was acceptable to Jews. 

Rereading all the above I find it more confusing than enlightening, but I 
will let it stand since this will no doubt inspire someone to shed some
light on this business.

-Zaitch

    Re .1:
    
    Thanks Zaitch....I found your information very enlightening.
    
    Basically, you are correct. Congregationalists believe that to kneel
    before icons of any sort is a sign of submission to something man-made
    and not a proper submission to G_d. This attitude got them in no
    end of trouble with the Roman Catholic Church and with the Church
    of England which is partially why they were persecuted in Great
    Britain. The group we know today as the Pilgrims fled to Holland and
    then to America because they only acknowledged the authority of
    a Heavenly King - not an earthly one.
    
    The other day I was at a Catholic service honoring local Girl Scouts
    (my daughter being one). We felt a little odd in that out of 200-300
    people we were the only ones not kneeling or crossing ourselves!
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mark

I checked out my sources a little and found that the GENERAL ban on kneeling is
indeed late, and has to do with not wanting to do what the Christians
do. The actual LAW is only not to kneel on a stone floor as the Amorites
did (so even in its origins the law is a polemical law, as are various
laws in the Torah).
I remember that as a child we were told NEVER to kneel, not even to get
something off the floor, not even in play, etc. Just shows you how deep
these feelings can run.
What you mentioned about feeling odd in a Catholic Church reminds me
of what many Jews have felt when expected to kneel, even
in a non-religious setting. For example I believe that Jewish Masons have
had some sort of issue around kneeling or bowing during their rites.
(But since I am not a Mason I am ignorant of the details.)

-Zaitch

    re last couple:

	When we kneel on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, we traditionally
	put something on the floor (mats, paper towels, etc.) even if
	the floor is not stone.  This is an extension of the ruling
	regarding stone floors (not many synagogues in the US have stone
	floors, but many in Israel do).

    Thanks for the follow-on, Zaitch. You were right in .1 - since the
    basic operative principal in a Congregational Church is one of religous
    democracy (one person/one vote) there can be no man or man-made
    entity, unless approved by vote of the congregation, in a position of
    authority over any one in the congregation. There are also checks and 
    balances against any elected leaders or bodies assuming too much power.
    For the pastor, this means fulfilling the role of leader-servant; he
    too serves at the will and pleasure of the congregation. The New
    England town meeting form of government sprang from this very philosophy.
    
    Funny you should mention about kneeling and Masonic rituals........I
    just happen to be a Mason. All I can say is there is nothing in
    the Masonic ritual that will conflict with a person's duty to their family,
    their country, or G_d. However, I could see where initially a Jewish person
    might have some concern over any activity where kneeling takes place
    (as might a person of my Protestant persuasion).
    
    Incidentally, I have to credit the Masonic education I have received
    for increasing my awareness of and sensitivity to Judaism. One of
    the many parallels is, like all synagogues, all masonic lodges face
    the East.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mark

    Well, I can't tell about Catholicism in the US. In Europe, there
    is no obligation to kneel during the ceremonies, and actually, many
    people don't (me included, if I happen to attend one).
    
    re.: kneeling in front of man or man made....
    
    If I recall it properly, Christians, from the earliest times onwards,
    knelt down for their prayers (ref. Roman reports on Christians).
    
    In some rural areas, you still can observe people kneel down whilst
    working on their fields, when they hear the church bell ring for
    the Angelus (evening prayer). This is contradictory to the "admiration
    of man-made symbols".
    
    Kneeling down is an action that goes along with praying, rather than a
    sign of devotion to man-made symbols. For more fervent :-) Catholics
    than myself, it is a sign of respect to G*d. As I said, in Europe, it
    is far from being a mandatory exercise.
    
    Correctingly yours,
    
    Chris

>    Incidentally, I have to credit the Masonic education I have received
>    for increasing my awareness of and sensitivity to Judaism. One of
>    the many parallels is, like all synagogues, all masonic lodges face
>    the East.

Maybe this should be a separate base note, but since you are a Mason,
Mark, maybe you could answer this: what is the connection if any between
Masons and King Solomon? Also, is it true that Masons were persectuted
by both Nazis and Bolsheviks, and if so-- why? (Not that either the Nazis 
or the Bolsheviks needed any particular reason to persecute anyone! But still,
I wonder if there is an ideological reason or some other reason...)

Thanks for the info!

-Zaitch