Conference taveng::bagels

Kaddish should be said for the entire year, daily.  As far as the unveiling, 
this can happen before the end of the year.

David 

    
    There are three distinct time periods that mourning falls into.  The
    shiva period, or first week after death, is most strict; "shloshim,"
    the first month after death, is an intermediate level of mourning, and
    the third period stretches from the end of shloshim until ten months
    later.  Kaddish, as David said, is recited daily for eleven months
    after death; and there are fairly comprehensive listings of what one
    may and may not do in each of the three periods of mourning.

    A good source for most of your questions concerning the avalis period
    can be found in a book by Rabbi Lamm.  I believe the title is 
    "The Jewish Way of Life, Death and Mourning".

One other thing that I forgot that is customary (but rarely practiced) is to
learn Torah during the year.

David

I think I'll add a couple of my own questions to this topic. Is there a custom
of visiting the gravesite annually? Also why do some people place a pebble or
small stone on the grave marker?

There is a tendancy to turn the unveiling into a second funeral ceremony. This
is incorrect. There is no formal requirement for an unveiling. I believe any
time after sheloshim is OK for it and how you observe this event is entirely
according to how you feel about it.

Dave

re: -1

Visits to the gravesite are usually done during chodesh Elul, the month before
Rosh Hashanah.  

David

    Putting a stone on top of the grave is considered a mitzvah - it is as
    if you are helping to bury the person.  If you visit any of the
    cemetaries in Israel, all the graves seem to be covered with piles of
    pebbles for this reason - I remember seeing Golda Meir's tomb (I added
    my pebble, too).

re .0 - .2
Customs vary, of course, but a couple of other points worth mentioning
viz. previous replies:

- The year-long period of mourning is really a year, not eleven months.
  During this period, the mourner generally refrains from music, parties,
  etc.  Kaddish is indeed said only for eleven months, but this is for another
  reason.  Tradition holds that the saying of kaddish helps move the soul
  of the departed up the various levels of heaven.  A full year is required
  to move from the lowest level (populated by totally evil people) to the
  highest level (populated by the totally righteous).  Since we don't wish
  to imply that the dead person was evil, we say kaddish for eleven months
  only.
- Shiva (the seven day period) and shloshim (the 30 day period) are 
  prematurely ended by a major Jewish holiday. For example, if a shiva
  begins three days before Yom Kippur, it will end with that holiday,
  and shloshim will end a few days later at Sukot.
- The year-long period of mourning is observed only for parents.  For other
  members of the immediately family, only a month is observed.

    re: .5 - 
    
    I had the same question regarding the pebbles on top of the
    gravestones.  My mother told me that not only is it "to help bury
    the dead" it is also to mark the stone for others that you have
    been there to visit...no one should be alone sort-of-thing.
    
    I personally think it's a nice idea...my grandmother would be very
    happy if she could see the pile of stones that are left for her.
    
    JayCee
    

    
    >There is a tendancy to turn the unveiling into a second funeral ceremony.
    
    Is this another name for the tombstone setting? 
    
    Malcolm
    

    Yes.  
    

    What would happen in the case of a mixed marriage or if the
    parents/children followed different faiths? I could invision major
    problems in either of the above cases.
    
    Eric

    My mother was Jewish and converted to Christianity before she
    married my Christian father.  My Jewish grandparents also converted.
    I observe as many of the Jewish rituals as I can within the context
    of the Christian rituals.  We had the Psalms and some paragraphs
    from the Jewish funeral services added to my mother and grandmother's
    funeral services.  I recently went to my grandparent's graves -- it
    is a masoleum tomb and the best I could do was put stones on the
    floor next to their 'slots' in the wall.  
    
    When my mother died, my father liked the idea of the yahrzeit candles
    burning for the week of shiva, so I also burned them when he died 
    last year.
    
    It is also confusing because of the five children, only two of us
    have learned much about Judaism.  There are also issues of ease
    and comfort and guilt which I cannot sort out very well yet.
    
    Yours,
    Meredith
          

    RE: .13, what about the reverse situation where the parents are
    Jewish and the children aren't. Such issues an Kaddash and so forth
    would obviously come up.
    
    Eric

>    RE: .13, what about the reverse situation where the parents are
>    Jewish and the children aren't. Such issues an Kaddash and so forth
>    would obviously come up.
It seems to be harder to become non-Jewish than it is to become Jewish,
especially for those born Jewish. I would guess that for most cases that come
up now-a-days this would not be an issue and standard Jewish mourning
practice would apply.

Dave

    so, a man who is not able to count towards a minyun because 
    he married out is still obliged to attend services so he can 
    say kaddish?

    Dave, I don't think it would be any harder to go one way that the
    other (actually I think it might become more difficult to become
    Jewish because of the requirements). So the original questions still
    stands, if the parents are Jewish and the children aren't, what's
    done (and the point raised in reply .16 also raises some interesting
    points).
    
    Eric

    Your question is really what should the children do??  If they no
    longer are Jewish, why should they be concerned about Jewish mourning
    customs?  If I were them, I would arrange for someone to say the
    Kaddish for the parent.
    
    Av

Shalom,

I think the point Dave was making is that even if the children are not
practicing Judaism they are still Jews and have the same requirements as
if they were practicing.  Now on a more practical note, one would expect
the children to not feel bound by Jewish requirements.  So, what should
they do?

It would seem that they have 3 choices:
1) Observe the Jewish customs of mourning instead of (or in addition to)
   those observed by the religion that they are practicing.
2) Ignore all Jewish customs of mourning and observe those that they
   believe in.
3) Do something like Av suggested where in they see to requirements of
   Kaddish but do not perform them themselves.

Choice 1 would likely be difficult and possibly superficial for the children.
Choice 2 would, from my point of view, be disrespectful.
Choice 3 seems to present a good balance.

Gavriel

    Why would 2 be disrespectful? Does not each individual, by their
    personal choice, have the right to believe and worship as they desire?
    I'm not talking about someone who is non-observant, but rather someone
    who has accepted a different faith which they now practice. Is not
    their faith as valid as their parents? My feeling is that mourning
    should be something done by the LIVING and as such, it should be
    practiced as the mourner believes (and this doesn't necessarily
    mean that I personally believe in any rituals).
    
    Eric

    re: 20
    
    I once heard a story of a man whose wife just delivered a son. With
    great joy he ran down the street announcing, "I have a kadish!"
    And later, when the boy was grown, he would introduce him to others
    as his kadish.
    
    What can this mean?  Why, at the dawn of a new life would he see
    his demise?  And why, with joy and pride would he introduce his
    son to others as his "kadish"?
    
    I think it may have to do with the precarious life a Jew leads.
    I think that deep down, each Jew sees the possibility of his 
    being the last Jew.  And to such a one, the fact that there will
    be someone to continue, someone who will be left to sanctify the
    name of the Lord through the recitation of the kadish, is a 
    great relief and a source of pride.

I think I need to have a better understanding of the purpose for 
the saying of Kaddish for 11 months (mixed in with a few other
theological concepts of Judaism).

Now correct me if I'm wrong :-), but my understanding of Kaddish/
Heaven/Hell in Judaism goes something like this:

  - We Jews do not believe in the concept of Hell or everlasting
    damnation.

  - We (to my way of thinking) "waffle" on the concept of Heaven,
    at least as I understand Chistians perceive Heaven (being reunited
    with loved ones who have passed on before, receiving everlasting
    spiritual life). When a Jew dies, we basically pray that G-d grants
    the soul of the deceased eternal peace. But I've never received
    the impression through my (albeit) limited Jewish education, syn-
    agogue attendance, or readings that we Jews - when we die - expect 
    to have a chance to be with our dead loved ones and friends again. 

  - We believe in doing good deeds in this life for their own sake, not 
    because we think these good deeds will get us into Heaven (which as  
    I've stated above, I'm confused about anyways).

  - When we say Kaddish, we don't mention the name of the deceased. In
    Kaddish, we bless and sanctify G-d. 

  - So... how does saying Kaddish, without mentioning the name of the dead
    person, help the soul get to Heaven which I'm not sure we believe in
    anyway, particularly since, if anything, Jews believe in each person's
    being responsible for his/her own good deeds which are meant to bring
    benefits in this life, not the next................???

  - In .8, it was stated that the year-long period of mourning is observed
    only for parents. If a person has never had children and dies, how does
    he/she get to have Kaddish said for them for 11 months?

  - As I said at the beginning, I *am* confused.

Regarding having someone else say Kaddish for the departed, I have a couple 
of comments. My father died this past Labor Day, about 5 days before Rosh 
Hashanah, so shiva ended prematurely. Shloshim ended with Yom Kippur. I said 
Kaddish for my father for thirty days at the Minyan at one of the Temples in 
Sharon.

Knowing myself, I felt that I wouldn't want to go to synagogue twice a day
for another 10 months.

My mother said, "Alan, we can hire somebody to say Kaddish for Daddy." We
mentioned this to a rabbi. His feeling was that it was more meaningful
for *me* to say Kaddish morning and night for him, even if it was in my house,
rather than pay to have a stranger say Kaddish in a "traditional" way.

So, twice a day, by myself, I say Kaddish for my Dad.

  Alan    

    Re: 657.22

>I think I need to have a better understanding of the purpose for 
>the saying of Kaddish for 11 months (mixed in with a few other
>theological concepts of Judaism).

    There are two kinds of explanations (at least):

    Traditional:

    There is one tradition that developed, possibly as a Jewish response to
    Christian teachings, that the soul of the departed spent a period of
    time in a kind of purgatory before going to heaven.  Saying kaddish
    supposedly helped the soul to make that transition faster.  The souls
    of  wicked persons might be there for a year, but since one would not
    want to imply that a parent was a wicked person, the kaddish was said
    only for eleven months.  Since certain ritual actions, including the
    recitation of the kaddish, are not considered valid unless done in a
    minyan, this obliged the mourner to attend services daily.  Since women
    were not counted as part of a minyan, they could not recite a valid
    kaddish and a man (a relative or hired proxy) would take on the
    obligation.

    Anthropological:

    It is extremely difficult to deal with death of a loved one, especially
    a parent, and it can be helpful to have a rote ritual to follow in the
    days and weeks immediately following the death.  As time goes by, the
    ritual helps the person reintegrate into society.  The traditional
    requirement that the kaddish be part of the public rite forces the
    mourner to stay in touch with the congregation and provides an
    opportunity for the community members to reach out to the mourner.  It
    also serves as a source of supply of worshipers to the daily service,
    which, in turn reinforces a sense of community.  I strongly suspect
    that the basic ritual practice had been worked out before the
    traditional justification (see above) was developed.

>  - When we say Kaddish, we don't mention the name of the deceased. In
>    Kaddish, we bless and sanctify G-d.

    The kaddish is said several times during worship to separate different
    parts of the service.  It has nothing to do with mourning per se, and
    most recitations are done by whoever is leading the service.  One of
    the ways of honoring the dead is to show solidarity with the beliefs
    and practices of the deceased by participating in or leading the
    religious rites of the community.  It became the custom to reserve
    certain recitations of the kaddish for mourners so that they could
    honor their late relatives by leading part of the service.  (This is a
    somewhat simplified explanation.)

>So, twice a day, by myself, I say Kaddish for my Dad.

    In the end, what matters is how we feel about what we do.  From the way
    you write, I infer that saying the kaddish gives you a feeling of
    connection with your father and is comforting.  Those are very
    important things.  The tradition can be useful as a guide, but in the
    end we must each find our own way of dealing with death.  As a personal
    observation (and not as an admonition), when I was saying kaddish for
    my father I did find that saying it in a congregation (and for a
    variety of practical reasons I said it at many different shuls of all
    "persuasions") gave me a feeling of connection with other Jews that
    helped me get through that period.