Conference taveng::bagels

    Observance can, to a certain degree and for a limited time, be forced
    upon children by parents.  Belief can never be forced. The degree
    to which a child reflects the pattern of the parents is directly
    proportional to the love and respect that the child develops for
    that pattern. 
    
    I refer you to a recent novel, "The Caretaker", translated from
    the French "Les Concierges de Dieu" by Bernard Mathias.

Re: .0
    
>    Where does the Commandment "Honor thy Father and Mother" stop 
>    and the right to one's religious belief's begin. In other words, 
>    do parents have the right to atempt to force a particular belief 
>    on their offspring (both young and adult), even though that off-
>    spring desides that he or she doesn't believe in any or that they 
>    choose one that is different from the parent's.

This question hit particuarly close to home for me because I was 
raised in a Catholic home and at age 16 or so decided enough was 
enough and began my slow drift away from the RC church. My father 
was not particuarly upset because he was more or less agnostic but 
my mother took it pretty hard. Later, when my wife (who was also 
raised as a Catholic) broke away from Catholicism completely and 
joined the Congregational Church, we took heat from my parents and 
hers as well.

>    And once this choice is made, can they keep the grandparents from
>    interfering in the religious upbringing of their children.

My in-laws are what I call religous "wafflers". Although my 
mother-in-law (bless her heart) was raised in a devout Catholic home,
she and my father-in-law (who was a Methodist when he married my 
mother-in-law and then compromised and became a Catholic) 
occasionally attend the Congregational Church. When I describe the 
challenges of raising my children as Congregationalists in a 
predominantly French Roman Catholic neighborhood in West Manchester, 
NH, they accuse me of being biased against Catholics!!! Apparently, 
our children's Congregational upbringing is OK when my in-laws 
are into attending their local Congregational Church and not OK when 
THEY'RE back at their nominal Catholic church......

>    This is not a hypothetical question and it has generated massive amounts
>    of family anger and problems.

You definitely have that right!
                                                                      
Mark

    re .0
    
>    This question has been posted in a number of notesfiles, so that
>    a varied collection of opinions can be gathered. The specifics
>    of who is which religion has been specifically left out so as notr
>    to bias the replies.
    
    Which other conferences was this posted in?

    The same basic question was posted in Religion and UU and even found
    its way into Soapbox (diverse opinions there to say the least).
    
    Eric
    

    Take it from someone with a Buddhist son...Forcing religion doesn't
    work.  What does work is enjoying the religion yourself and setting
    an example and lovingly trying to get the kids involved. My children
    reacted with a wide range of beliefs ....some love the religion,
    some go to great lengths to be different.  Extended family events
    that are enjoyed helps.  ANd then one never knows what outside
    influences will exert themself...It's chance, environment, and 
    home influences.
    
    

    Interesting question.
    
    There is a discussion in the Talmud about this, but it concerns
    what a child should do if his father tells him to break a commandment.
    In some cases, the son may disobey the father, others he may not.
    
    The Chumash (Bible) speaks of a "rebellious son," one who refuses
    to honor his parents.  I believe that such a child can be put to
    death.
    
    Ultimately (and perhaps unfortunately, in this case) we each have
    free choice. An adult has the right to choose which commandments
    s/he will keep, including "Honoring father and mother."  A parent
    is within Jewish law to "command" a child to do something, but the
    child is just as free not to listen (except that s/he would be breaking
    the fifth commandment).
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    This right to choose which commandments to keep...do you have a Jewish
    reference (Talmud, Chumash, etc.) for this?  
    
    ---Av

    But the question still revolves around the interpetation of "Honor thy
    Father and Mother". Its fairly clear that if one's father tells him to
    commit a crime, he has no responsibility to follow it. The original
    base note was directed to religious issues because of differences in
    beliefs between offspring and parents. My own opinion is that religious
    beliefs belong ONLY to the individual involved, and no one else.
    
    Eric

    Av,
    
    I wish I could quote you chapter and verse; I don't have a chumash
    at work.  I know that the origin of free will is Biblical (i.e.,
    Chumash) and goes something like:
    
        I (G-d) set before you good and evil,... blessing and curse,...
        therefore choose life.
    
    

    Dave,
    
    I agree that we have free will... that is not the issue.  We certainly
    can choose to do the miztvot or not do them. That, in fact, is the
    message of the quote you gave in .9.  the "good" and  the "blessing"
    relate to Torah and mitzvot and the results of the choice to adhere to
    them. Torah is called both "Eiytz Chaim" and "Mayim Chaim" --- the Tree of
    Life and the Water of Life. 
    
    The choice that G-d is giving the Jews is to follow Torah or not.
    Clearly free choice is allowed.  However, the blessings come because we
    can freely choose to connect to G-d through mitzvot. Why would we get
    blessings for something we had no choice in doing.  It is the constant
    tension/struggle that makes us Jews. 
     
    I may have read your previous reply incorrectly, but you made it seem
    like "cafeteria" Judaism was somehow given an imprimatur in the Torah. 
    
    ---Av
    

    Try Deuteronomy chapter 30 verse19

    Av,
    
    re .10, and "cafeteria" Judaism.
    
    I didn't mean to suggest that G-d was saying, "It's OK to select which
    mitzvot you want to observe, and that's OK by Me."  What I meant was
    that G-d tells us what He wants (i.e., what is right), and we can
    choose to obey or not.  That doesn't mean that G-d condones disobeying
    His Law.  There is no pre-destination, nor are our actions directly
    controlled by G-d.  (See you at the Mitzvah Buffet!)
    
    How does this relate to the original question?  Well...
    
    What I meant to say is that a parent can demand what s/he wants. The
    demands must be consistent with Jewish tradition.  Parents are within
    their rights to apply "tough love" to their kids as appropriate (i.e.,
    to kick them out of the house, disown them; See also: Rebellious Son).
    After parents make their positions clear, it is the child's choice to
    obey or not.
    
    I would venture to say that a parent would be remiss if s/he didn't
    rebuke a rebellious child.  It's part of the job.
    
    Dave
    
    (BTW, As I am wont to eschew obfuscation, I would appreciate it
    if you would simplify verbiage such as "imprimatur" so that I don't
    have to break the shrink-wrap on my American Heritage Dictionary.
    Sarcasm intended.)