Conference taveng::bagels

    "uncritical exposure"?  What do you mean?  Is there such a thing
    as "critical exposure?"  Do you think that the books selected for
    a book fair should express some specified political point of view?
    Should those who organize such events censor for "balance"?

    To take this notion of appropriateness one step further, is it
    appropriate for the Chabad House in Kenmore Square to light a 10
    foot Chanukia in a public place (not on their own property) during
    Chanukah?  My thinking was that they would scream and shout had there
    been a nativity scene there.
    
    What do you think?
    
    With regard to the books at the JCC, you can't say the collection
    wasn't honest and complete.  I saw the Fair and wasn't offended
    by what was on sale.
    
    
    -Sue Kur

>    To take this notion of appropriateness one step further, is it
>    appropriate for the Chabad House in Kenmore Square to light a 10
>    foot Chanukia in a public place (not on their own property) during
>    Chanukah?  My thinking was that they would scream and shout had there
>    been a nativity scene there.

Shalom Sue,

Actually, I have the impression that Chabad applauds the fact that THERE IS
a nativity scene on the Common near the Chanukia which the light their.  Their
view seems to be that a general increase in religiousness (both Jew and Gentile)
is a good thing.

Gavriel

>Actually, I have the impression that Chabad applauds the fact that THERE IS
>a nativity scene on the Common near the Chanukia which the light their.  Their
>view seems to be that a general increase in religiousness (both Jew and Gentile)
>is a good thing.

I think that the main reason they generally support the idea of Christmas
displays under public auspices is to make Jews remember that as good as
the US is for Jews, this is not our homeland; we are in "galut" here.

Compare the Chabbad support for the Czar against Napoleon during Napoleon's
invasion of Russia. Chabbad has always been distrustful of emancipation
of Jews.

-Zaitch

    re.1: Yes, racism should always undergo a censorship. I read only
    excerpts of Kahane's "writings", translated into German. Strangely
    enough, I couldn't help to constantly having to draw parallels with
    certain other writings dating back to 1925-1933. 
    
    Rememberingly yours,
    
    Chris

    re: 5
    
    No, not even "racism" should undergo censorship.  As a matter of
    fact, it should be given broad circulation and taken seriously.
    Of course, there are certain actions that are frequently considered
    against the law in many countries -- those that might, for example,
    promote violence (spark riots, for example).

    	I guess the reason I reacted to seeing Kahane's books was not
    really that there should be censorship or better choice at a book fair. 
    (The book fair is a pretty amateurish production.)  

    	Rather, I was shocked to see how sinister his methods are.  The
    books carry no indication of the kind of poisonous nonsense Kahane
    deals in.  As stated in .0, he's free to publish anything he pleases,
    but I can just see people buying and reading and saying things like
    "Well, if he bothered to write it, it must be true."  The printed word
    carries its own weight.  So, if you have enough money behind you (and
    he seems to) it gives you the ability to publish, which in turn many
    people give more credibility than deserved.

    	It's sort of like the smear commercials of the recent U.S.
    campaign, many of which (mostly on Bush's side) were revealed to be a
    pack of lies--but in many cases not until after the election.  If the
    press was that easily manipulated and bamboozled, so much easier it
    must be to handle the general public.  Kahane realizes that people are
    suckers for slick and easy statements about difficult problems.

    	So, read my original statement not as a call for censorship but
    rather as a feeling of fear for how easily this kind of stuff can
    become accepted--and acceptable.

    			David

    I will leave attacks on Bush campain alone -- it should be a subject
    of another discussion.  Speaking of Kahane:  Some time ago C-Span
    carried his talk at a Press club, I don't know which.  I listened
    to him.  Without getting into debates whether his conclusions are
    right or wrong, his assessment of the situation is absolutely correct.
    The birth rate of Arabs in Israel is much higher then that of Jews.
    It means that at a some point the Arab Israeli citizens will be
    in the majority and then Israel will sease to exist as a Jewish
    state, which was the original purpose of Israel.  Then, to protect
    it's Jewishness, it will have to stop being democratic.  A similar
    problem stand for occupied territories.  Annexing them means creating
    Arab majority in Israel.
    
    At the end of the discussion an Arab journalist stood up and said
    that no matter what Kahane says, Palestine is going to be Arab,
    and that include the whole territory of Israel.  Kahane answered
    that if she (the journalist) hadn't come he should have invited
    her to prove his point.
    
    I am writing it just to show that you that the guy brings tough
    problems, whwther or not you agree with his conclusions. 

    How do you invoke a spell checker on notes???!!!
    
    Leo Simon

    If I was the owner of a bookshop, Kahane's books wouldn't be displayed
    in my vitrine. He has a point? Oh NO (watch my next reply).
    
    If this is censorship to you, then yes, I'm censoring. I admit I
    wasn't explicit enough.
    
    Re-adjustingly yours,
    
    Chris

    Well, I put my comments into ��, except for the 're-edited' version
    of the previous text.
    
    I'm sure you won't like it, but I don't like Kahane's views, either.
    
    We have to stick to some ethic (NON ETHNIC) principes. Kahane infringes
    most of them.
    
    Transposingly yours,
    
    Chris
    
    re.8: HPSTEK::SIMON < Have a closer look... >
    
    �SIC�

    �I'll change a couple of names and words. Watch the outcome! Names
    and geographical denominations have no impact on basic ideas, one
    should think.�
    

    Speaking of Hitler: Some time ago Deutscher Rundfunk carried his talk
    at a Press club, I don't know which.  I listened to him.  Without
    getting into debates whether his conclusions are right or wrong, his
    assessment of the situation is absolutely correct. The economic
    influence of Jews in Germany is much higher then that of Germans. It
    means that at a some point the Jewish German citizens will be in the
    economic majority and then Germany will s(C!)ease to exist as an Arian
    state, which was the original purpose of Germany. Then, to protect it's
    Arianness, it will have to stop being democratic. ...
        
    I am writing it just to show that you that the guy brings tough
    problems, whwther or not you agree with his conclusions...

    �Make the year to be 1933. A lot of people at that time thought
    along the same lines than you. They've proven to be lethal.�
    How do you invoke a spell checker on notes???!!!
    
    �in EVE, press DO, at the command: type SPELL (if you have a
    spellchecker installed�
    Leo Simon
    

    re.10: The signature should read "Chris" at the end

    re:.9
    
    No one is disputing your right as "the owner of a bookshop" to stock
    whatever books you want.
    
    re: .10
    
    I'm sorry, but switching words doesn't work.  You cannot switch
    the conditions.  The fact is that German Jews had no intention of
    bringing down the state and had never done anything that could 
    have been interpreted as an intent to do so.

Shalom,

I have to agree with Leo.  Kahane does ask important questions.  It is his
answers which leave alot to be desired.  As long as he is unable to impose
his answers on the rest of Israel then will play an important role, forcing
people to think about the questions.

And what is the primary question?  How do we reconcile the contradictions
of western democracy and zionism?  A political form which promotes equality
with a desire for a state dedicated to the needs of a specific ethnic group?
There are no simple answers; but if we don't keep examining at the problem
there won't be any answers.

L'hit,
Gavriel

    
    Don't get me wrong! I'm not comparing Kahane's intentions with
    Hitler's. There are worlds in between. The ways how they are presented
    show odd similarities. 
    
    Point taken. I just wanted to highlight that some argumentation lines
    could easily be misinterpreted. 
    
    And, yes, discrimination and racism are still high up on my black
    spot rankings.
    
    Sensitively yours,
    
    Chris

    I am sorry to say this, Chris, but your reply is what is called
    demagoguery.  These words put into Hitler's mouth are lies.  What
    Kahane says is the real situation.  You didn't add anything to the
    discussion by your reply, except insultimg me.  Please let me consider
    your .14 as an apology.
             
    As far as the answer to problems, raised by Kahane, I do not have
    them.  I can't agree with him, and I know that there is a tough
    problem of choice between a democratic or a Zionist and/or Jewish
    state.                                                     
                                                               
        Leo Simon                                              

    Leo, there really was no offense intended. I may be a meschuggener goj,
    but I recognise racism when I meet it, and I fight it when I recognise
    it.. And no, what I did is not called demagoguery, but polemicising. I
    had a couple of courses in rhetorics. You want demagoguery: Kahane is
    your man. Even a strongliner like Shamir has a more pragmatic and
    objective approach to the problems. 
    
    See, the trick with Kahane is that the way he asks the questions
    suggests an either/or answer in situations and for problems where BOTH
    is an acceptable solution. But the BOTH is discarded by the question
    itself (example: Zionist state OR democracy). 
    
    If you feel insulted by the transposition some entries ago, accept my
    apologies. For your understanding: I've lived for 10+ years in a Jewish
    family and know how they have suffered under Hitler. _This_ is why I
    fight racism with ALL means, even with polemicising approaches. Kahane
    will not be an exception to my rules, the memory of the Holocaust
    forbids it. There MUST be an alternate solution to the problem of the
    Arab population in Israel and the 'occupied' lands than simply
    declaring the Arabs to be underdogs. There MUST be a different way for
    the Jewish people to preserve their existence and their identity than
    just following Kahane's obscurism of 'purity of race' slogans. Kahane's
    declarations are inhuman, and it's exactly HUMANITY which is a kernel
    element of Israel's culture and society.
    
    Peres has some valuable thoughts, for instance: we should TALK.
    
    Flame on:
    Fight the beginnings! (Wehret den Anf�ngen!) 
    Flame off!

    Anti-racistically (and maybe over-optimistically) yours,
    
    Chris