| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 584.1 | The ultra-orthodox -- Israel's greatest enemy? | ANRCHY::SUSSWEIN | He Who Dies With the Most Toys Wins | Tue Nov 15 1988 16:12 | 4 |
| 1,3, and 4b are definitely true. I'm note sure about the others.
Steve
|
| 584.2 | | ANT::PKANDAPPAN | | Tue Nov 15 1988 16:41 | 27 |
| > 1. The offspring of super-orthodox Jews can often be exempted from
> military service on "religious grounds." The religious right makes
Acccording to news reports, one of the demands of the religious parties
[of Shamir] was that the law providing this exemption should not be
repealed. From this I assume that such exemptions were already available.
> 3. If you drive your car on the Sabbath in certain neighborhoods,
> your car will be stoned.
ABC News showed footage sometime back stating that this was true. This was
about the time that there were some confrontations involving posters [of
women that the Orthodox objected to].
> 4. During the recent elections, the religious right won because
> a) American yeshiva students voted absentee ballots
> using dual citizenship.
According to many reports, an Orthodox Rabbi from Brooklyn, NY exhorted many
of his followers to vote. Apparently this call was not insignificant. In one
TV report I saw, an Israeli journalist was very vehement about the fact that
"people living over there come, vote because somebody said, and then go away.
And we are left to sort out the mess" [I am paraphrasing; but that was the
jist!].
-parthi
|
| 584.3 | the temper of the times | CADSYS::RICHARDSON | | Tue Nov 15 1988 16:51 | 20 |
| About stoning cars: in some neighborhoods, "the Sabbath" means any time
after about 10 am on Friday morning; when I was in Israel, a bus was
stoned in Meah Shearim at that time on a Friday morning (no, it was not
a holiday). I stayed far, far away from that part of Jerusalem on the
Sabbath.
I really wonder what the temper of American Jews is going to become
now, with all the recent developments in the Middle East. A government
controlled by the religious far right is not easy for a liberal Jew
like me to support whole-heartedly anyhow (especially since such a
government might decide to not recognize me at all, since I am a
liberal). And now I read that the PLO, in its "declaration of
independence", also finally recognized the right of Israel to exist and
specifically rejected terrorism as a political statement (not that I
think they really mean the latter...I don't trust "former" terrorists
much, I guess) - both of which make them a lot more likely to gather
American sympathy, even from American Jews. Your thoughts??
/Charlotte
|
| 584.4 | | ABSZK::GOLDMAN | usually known as TAVENG::GOLDMAN | Tue Nov 15 1988 17:23 | 48 |
|
> 1. The offspring of super-orthodox Jews can often be exempted from
> military service on "religious grounds." The religious right makes
> the laws and the children of the secular Jews fight in the armed
> forces.
The law is that a student who is currently studying in a yeshiva can
receive a deferment. At such time when he leaves the yeshiva he goes to
the army.
> 2. Conservative authorities do not recognize Reform conversions,
> just as Orthodox authorities do not recognize Conservative and
> Reform conversions.
I don't think that this has anything to do with Israel. There are no
Conservative or Reform authorities in Israel.
> 3. If you drive your car on the Sabbath in certain neighborhoods,
> your car will be stoned.
This *MAY* happen is some (about four or five) neighborhoods which are
populated by at least 99% Sabbath observing people. I live in a
predominantly religious neighborhood and there has never been such a case.
> 4. During the recent elections, the religious right won because
>
> a) American yeshiva students voted absentee ballots
> using dual citizenship.
One cannot vote in Israeli elections via absentee ballot unless one is
a government employee serving outside of Israel.
People with dual citizenship are allowed to vote at their local poling
place just as a US citizen who happens to hold another citizenship as can
vote in US elections.
> b) The orthodox rabbis told their congregations that
> if they didn't vote they would suffer hellfire,
> brimstone, etc., etc.
Some of this did take place. Not by "orthodox rabbis" but by "a few
rabbis". This is similar to a candidate from Party X saying that if the
public votes for the candidate from Party Y the state of the nation will
deteriorate and all the citizens will suffer.
|
| 584.5 | more facts (and opinions) | ERICG::ERICG | Eric Goldstein | Wed Nov 16 1988 03:15 | 36 |
| .0> 1. The offspring of super-orthodox Jews can often be exempted from
.0> military service on "religious grounds." The religious right makes
.0> the laws and the children of the secular Jews fight in the armed
.0> forces.
.0>
.4> The law is that a student who is currently studying in a yeshiva can
.4> receive a deferment. At such time when he leaves the yeshiva he goes to
.4> the army.
The word "can" in Aharon's reply is crucial. Almost all of the students
who take such deferments are haredi (ultra-Orthodox); most religious (Orthodox)
boys go into the army at 18, as non-religious boys do. Some of the religious
boys participate in a program called "yeshivat hesder", in which their service
is extended and split between yeshiva study and normal army duties.
It also should be noted that many of those who receive a deferment end up
serving less time in the army, since they are older by the time that they
actually go in. On the other hand, some haredi boys do the standard 3 years.
Obviously, the original statement is a gross oversimplification; I haven't
even mentioned the rules for religious *girls*. But it certainly is unfair
to say that the religious (Orthodox) as a group do not serve in the army.
.0> 3. If you drive your car on the Sabbath in certain neighborhoods,
.0> your car will be stoned.
And your car may be stoned if you drive on *any* day in certain other (Arab)
neighborhoods. :-(
.0> 4. During the recent elections, the religious right won ...
How do you define "religious right"? How do you define "won"? All of the
religious parties together have 15% of the seats in the new Knesset, but
they are hardly a monolithic block. The 4 parties have major personal,
political, and ideological differences separating them. Shamir may get
all of them into his coalition, but it won't be easy.
|
| 584.6 | good that we have the facts | TAZRAT::CHERSON | always on the square | Wed Nov 16 1988 08:52 | 27 |
| re: .0
Well I was just waiting for this topic to finally come up here.
Fortunately both Alan and Eric who are both in Israel have answered
with the facts.
Regarding the *boys* from the yeshivat hesder program: when I was
in Zahal I was favourably impressed with them as it takes a three-year
enlistment and stretches it into 5 or 6. Plus it states one's
committment to both Torah study and the country. During my time
in sadir I found most of the hesder people in the armoured corps.
Re: the election and the (so-called) religious right. First of
all what makes you so sure that just because they are religious
that they are right-wing? I think there is a mistaken application
of North American standards here. Some of the people in the religious
parties are more willing to trade the territories for peace than
60% of Labor.
One last issue, although I may not approve of amending the Law of
Return, etc., and that I have sharp differences with the Aguda,
I recognize the fact that their seats in the Knesset were won in
a free & democratic election. I have no one to blame but myself
for not living there and voting. American Jews should take the
same advice.
David
|
| 584.7 | selling blessings in exchange for votes | DELNI::GOLDSTEIN | Plesiochronous percussion | Wed Nov 16 1988 12:12 | 15 |
| Perhaps some of 4b came about from reports that certain campaign
workers for Agudat (the Lubavicher party) were making rather, uh,
excessive promises in exchange for votes.
The Lubavicher rebbe is known for his "blessings", which remind
me of, say, Oral Roberts and the selling of absolution. So his
blessings were being sold in exchange for votes. (Whether Schneerson
himself even knew about it is a different matter: The campaign
workers were making promises of blessings.) In one case, they were
reported to have told someone that her dead husband would be
resurrected if she voted for Agudat!
Nothing we don't get in America. Just here, such small percentages
of the vote tend to get lost in winner-takes-all elections.
fred
|