Conference taveng::bagels

	The estimated number of Jews in the Soviet Union is
	I believe about 2 million. Assuming the proceeding
	note is forecasting correctly, does anyone care to make 
	a prediction on how many would actually choose to leave.
	Would 200,000 be a good guess? With groups like Pamyat on
	the rise, it could excellerate even further.

	Darryl

I have heard Israeli leaders claim that 400,000 Jews would emigrate given
the chance.

Assuming that they would be more exaggerated than conservative in their
estimates, I guess 300,000 to 400,000 would be a first approximation.

But I guess it all depends on the economic and political liberalisation of
the Soviet Union and the side effects.

For instance, liberalised political environment may lead to the rise of
some anti-semitic group; as has already happened with the advent of some
Soviet style "skin heads"!


-parthi

    The Hammer's announcement seems encouraging, but...
    
    The Soviet Gvmnt. (including Gorbachev himself) stated firmly a
    few times, that people who had an access to classified information
    will not be allowed to leave the USSR.  Seems fair, from their
    standpoint.  However, friends of mine, Igor and Kira Shmuilovich,
    have been refuseniks for almost ten years.  The reason -- Igor worked
    with classified information.
    
    It is true, he formally had an access.  The lowest form of it. 
    Never used it.  And he quit this job (as a programmer at a jet engine
    company) in 1976.  Does Hammer includes the Shmuilovichs in his
    "all Jews will be allowed to leave"?
    
    And since I am on the subject:  Maybe you can help them if you write
    letters to your senator or representative with a request for help,
    or you may think of something more effective.  If you can and will,
    please mail me a note and will post (or send you) all the information.
    
    Leo Simon

    	.0
    
    	And I suppose you believe what Hammer says about Gorbachev?
    
    	Gorbachev is a liar and a deceiver.  He will say anything he
    	has to in order gain the world's confidence.  He does not have
    	this so called authority to make blanket promises anyway.  There
    	is an entrencehed Communist bureaucracy that he has to stroke
    	to get the few domestic reforms he needs to bring the USSR into
    	the 1940's!  If you think he is going to release hundreds of
    	thousands of professionals and scholars when his country is
    	continuing to flounder, then you must will believe anything.
    
    	Tell someone a lie, BIG enough and LONG enough, and he/she WILL
    	eventually not only BELIEVE IT, but also HELP SPREAD IT!!!
    
    	As for Hammer, he is as unconscienable a person as  there is.
    	He deals with Communists in Russia who have Slave labor camps
    	producing goods, and has openly been assisting Communist expan-
    	sionism/imperialism with his Business efforts since Lenin in
    	1920.  His father was a leading American Communist, and he has
    	only one G-d, and that is the buck.  There is blood on much
    	of his money, so I can see why he would coordinate his efforts
    	with a person such as Gorbachev.
    
    	The better to spread the lies, my dear.
    
    	Jack
    
    
    	leading: scholars, professionals, and 

    re: -1
    
    In deference to good noting etiquette all I will say is that you're
    a bit "out there" in regards to Armand Hammer.
    
    David

    	RE. -1
    
    	I take that comment as a compliment because you want to
    	dwell on my "style" instead of the subject Armand Hammer.
    	If you want to defend the man, do it.
    
    	Jack

    
    Just some food for thought:
    
    This is the man who flew Ben Charney home (to Boston).

    Some more food for thought:
    
    Armand Hammer is a very complex man with more than one or two sides
    to him.  You can make all sorts of anti-communist or whatever (Ghadafi,
    etc.) accusations against him, but they will seldom be rooted in
    fact.  He is the same man who is helping Israel with the attempts
    to discover oil reserves in the Mediterranean.  
    
    As far as doing business with the Soviets is concerned, he was just
    the first, followed by many, many more American businessman.  If
    you are so principled than the next time think twice before you drink a 
    pepsi.

    	re. -1
    
    	I do not drink PEPSKI for that reason.
    	As for Mr Hammer, you say thta my information on him is not
    	rooted in facts, well here is some more "non-facts" for you.
    
    	Hammer has had a very cozy relationship with Gadhafi in Libya
    	ever since the madman nationalized the fields.  Hammer, up until
    	a short time ago, was the only American plane to be able to
    	land in Libya.
    	As for Libya, by dealing with this terrorist state, Hammer has aided
    	and abetted a staging ground for guerilla commando training
    	used against both the US and ISRAEL.  There are Bulgarians,
    	East Germans, Ira members, Sandinistas, and all other types
    	of non-Facts training in Libya.  The Soviet Union has also been
    	a major benefactor in this client state, assisting in providing
    	weapons and support for this collection of terrorists.  Maybe,
    	this doesn't bother you, but you ought to get some more details,
    	instead of just saying this is a complex man.
    
    	This guy is financing these ventures for a buck, and if he can get
    	a little favorable publicity to mask over some of these sticky
    	points, I am quite sure he will do anything he has to.  Why
    	not, looking at his business associations, I am sure he would
    	do just about anything. 
    
    	
    
    

FACT:
	Hammer [& Occidental Petroleum] lost a fortune when Khaddafy
nationalised Libyan oil fields.

-parthi

    
    re 581.10: "one could question those who deal with RSA"
                    
    Yes, one could. But is there already an established TOPIC
    in this conference for it? (just teasing, folks!)
    
    Back to Oxy's Hammer and that "madman Colonel": What about
    Qadaffy's predecessor, King Idris (the 2nd?), who drafted
    or guided Libya's national petroleum policy? What kind
    of relationship was "Hammered out" between Armand and Idris?
    Also, how is Idris viewed by historians, and was he
    friendly/unfriendly towards Isreal? (I assume he was unfriendly,
    but maybe less so than Moamar. That's merely a guess.)
               
    To me, Idris seems to have taken an imaginative and successful
    stance against the "Major Oil Companies" by insisting that
    Libya's petroleum wealth be exploited by independents rather
    than by "Aramco and friends." Now, how do/did Zionists, for
    example, view Aramco? And how does that view compare to
    the view of Hammer's Oxy?
    
    I admit to having all sorts of preconceived notions and
    slants on these questions, and never know where to get
    reliable information. Isn't that the way "it was meant to be"?

    Related question: Would it be accurate to say that Aramco
    and/or the Saudi Royal Family give much lip service, and
    *slightly* less REAL "aid" to the "Palestinian Cause"?
    
    These questions are slightly loaded, but I consider myself
    mostly curious, not really being on either side, on the
    major issues.

    It's easy to bash Armand Hammer if  your view of the world is as
    simple as "dirty godless commies vs. wonderful Christian free America",
    where a handful of Jews don't see the word "Christian" above.  (Don't
    worry, it's there.  And it's beyond the scope of this topic.)
    
    But that's only one rather extreme view of reality.  Hammer is one
    of the most adept businessmen in the world, his leftist upbringing
    allowing him to see the "other side" in a rather different light
    from what My Weekly Reader and the Readers Digress et al tried to drum
    into us.  He doesn't have a demonological view of anyone.  If a
    deal is good, he makes it.  And he doesn't mean good for his pocket
    alone:  Unlike most big wheels who would run over their own
    grandmothers for a buck, Hammer's deals have often had humanitarian
    sidebars.  
    
    Hammer is a great bridge between the capitalist west and the Soviets.
    He's one of the few certifiable tycoons who understands the Soviet
    system and knows how to deal with them.  He can deal for oil, or
    for refuseniks.  He may be the only Jew who Qadaffi will talk to.
    He's such a straight shooter that neither side can refuse to deal
    with him, only zealots who won't deal with anyone who does deal
    with "them".

    re -.1
    
    >>Hammer .... may be the only Jew who Qadaffi will talk to.<<
    
    Are you sure that Hammer is Jewish??

    re: .13
    
    Yes, Hammer is Jewish.
    
    David 

    	RE .12
    
    	OH POOR Armand Hammer,
    	Oh poor Gorbachev,
    	Oh poor Libya,
    	Oh poor Soviet system..
    	
    	Is somebody daring to bash the heroes and I-DEAL-ists of the
    	left wing?  Is this another dirty campaign by Baker and Ailes?
    	Are Wilie Horton ads going to appear on your Terminal soon?
    
    	Why isn't it obvious that these terrorists (and their supporters)
    	are subsidizing Violent Terrorism against Israel and Western
    	Allies?  That there are commando training grounds (re. note
    	8) in these countries, yet all some people can see is, "This is
    	good business?"
    
    	And as for that simplistic, categorization "wonderful Christian
    	free America", I think it quite insulting to people of all
    	religions, that you attack an entire religious community.  Your
    	attempts to insult through this "cynical stereotyping" are in
    	very poor form.  
    
    	"I think you can see that Mr. Cohen is challenging my
    	 patriotism.  Frankly, I RESENT IT, I RESENT IT", said HAMMER.
    	"Oh, yeh, Moammar, how many more business deals do we have to
    	 do, to get that new PLO explosive/terrorism training camp up-
    	 and running.  Yes, the one with Bulgarian captain."
    
    	 
    
    
    	
    
    	

    Nobody's perfect.  Some folks, like Qadaffi, have a lot more visible
    negatives than positives.  That does not mean that anyone who tries
    to do any sort of business with someone who is imperfect is himself
    evil.  Should we boycott Canada because they do a lot of trade with
    a country that has committed terrorist acts against Nicaragua? 
    I mean, we Americans can't boycott ourselves because our government
    has done some pretty vile deeds.  So we should revile someone who
    trades with us?
    
    Likewise, by trading with the Soviets, Hammer is not becoming one: He
    is more likely to be a moderating influence upon them, demonstrating
    that not EVERY American views them as simply the eevul em-pyre. He as
    much as any other American appreciates the horrors that have gone on in
    Soviet bloc, having had much closer contact with them than most
    Americans.  He also recognizes the complexity of the situation there,
    and is a positive influence. 

    re:       <<< Note 581.16 by DELNI::GOLDSTEIN "Plesiochronous percussion" >>>
                              -< two sided coins >-
    
    Hmm. Although I don't have a strong opinion about Hammer or his
    dealings I am interested in your argument:
    
    >Likewise, by trading with the Soviets, Hammer is not becoming one: He
    >is more likely to be a moderating influence upon them, demonstrating
    >that not EVERY American views them as simply the eevul em-pyre. He as
    >much as any other American appreciates the horrors that have gone on in
    >Soviet bloc, having had much closer contact with them than most
    >Americans.  He also recognizes the complexity of the situation there,
    >and is a positive influence. 

    You're taking a pragmatic (un-Carter) approach to dealing with the
    Soviets. The argument that Hammer may have a moderating influence is an
    appealing one but I wonder how bad a regime has to be before the
    individual is seen as trafficking with an "evil empire" as opposed to
    just being a good influence. To pick an obvious hypothetical but
    extreme case, if Hammer had done business with Nazi Germany during
    World War II (not that I'm saying he would have), would it be
    considered that he was having a "moderating influence" that outweighed
    the "immorality" with dealing with such an evil regime?
    
    Maybe the answer depends on what standard one is using to judge the
    degree of "evil"ness of a regime. If the Soviet Union is judged to be
    totally depraved by one's standard (as I'm assuming most people would
    judge Nazi Germany) then presumably it would be wrong to cut deals with
    them that benefit them  a great deal. If on the other hand the Soviet
    Union is judged to be only somewhat depraved and open to be nudged in
    the right direction then maybe it is okay to cut deals.
    
    I personally oscillate back and forth between feeling that I should take
    a pragmatic approach (sure we'll deal with Pinochet) and a more
    idealistic approach (we won't deal with any repressive governments).
    Kissinger is the stereotype of the first and somebody like Carter is
    more representative of the latter. For myself, I don't know what the
    answer is but it is an interesting question.
    
    Paul           
    
    

	Carter was not much different than his predecessors except
	that he was more quiet about it and made a few speeches on human
	rights. Unfortunately, the basic mentality never changed
	nor did actual policy except for minor nuances. Brzezinski 
	and Kissinger come from the same school of repressive thought. 
	
	Darryl

    	re .18
    
    	Yes they came from the "Repressive" school of thought that had their
    	homelands overrun by Fascists and Communists, and they
    	decided to come to a place where they could hopefully have
    	an impact on fighting against these tyrannies.                
    
    	If that is "repressive", then count me in...

    If I had a choice btw. Hammer dealing with Gorbatchov and the US
    government dealing with Khomeini, guess who'd have my preference... 
    
    Comparingly yours,
    
    Chris

    
    Is it true that Armand Hammer received a presidential pardon
    recently? Hammer was mentioned, but I didn't hear the
    complete news section.
    

    Yes, Hammer got a pardon this week.

    If I heard correctly, Hammer was convicted of making
    an illegal campaign contribution(s) to Richard Nixon's
    1972 re-election campaign fund. But what was his sentence?
    
    Sometime I'll have to stretch my memory, by occident, to
    recall exactly when George Bush was chairman of the
    Republican National Committee.

    According to  yesterday's  Wall Street Journal, Hammer was given a
    light  sentence  (1  year  probation,  $3k  fine?)  because he was
    clearly  dying.  There  were worried doctors and he was on a heart
    monitor  the  whole  time.  Two  weeks  later  he was seen walking
    briskly  in  Moscow.  This sort of fraud on the courts is legal if
    you're rich enough.

    I think  Bush pardoned someone else from the same era. Hammer said
    that  it  was  good  to  be exonerated. Legally that is incorrect.
    Accepting  a  pardon  is an admission of guilt, and pardons can be
    declined by a person who claims he is innocent.

--David

'Armand Hammer Dead at 92 
 On Eve of Bar Mitzvah'
 by Susan Birnbaum
from 'The Jewish Advocate' Thurs., 12/13/90

New York (JTA) - Only 24 hours before he was to celebrate his
long-delayed Bar Mitzvah, oil magnate Armand Hammer died Monday
night at his Los Angeles home, following a short illness.  He
was 92.

What was to be a tribute to the billionaire industrialist Tuesday
night in Los Angeles turned into a memorial to a man who served 
as liaison between American and Soviet leaders and, in deepest
secrecy, between Israeli leaders and the leadership of the Soviet
Union.

The child of non-religious parents, Hammer had no Bar Mitzvah at 
age 13.  That death intervened to deprive him of the traditional
induction into Judaism that in his advanced years he had come to
desire, was the final irony in a long life filled with paradox.

Armand Hammer, a maverick in the high-flying world of international
tycoons, was mistrusted by some Jews because of his close personal
ties to Kremlin leaders from Vladimir Lenin to Mikhail Gorbachev -
Joseph Stalin excluded.

Yet he may have done more than any single individual to help secure
freedom for Soviet Jews in the pre-glasnost era.

Through his influence with the Soviet Union, founded on the well-
remembered medical and food aid he sent the embattled country 
following the Russian Revolution, he was able to press for the
emigration of Soviet Jews, particularly those with extraordinary
problems.

Hammer personally brought out two longtime refuseniks, Professor
David Goldfarb and Ida Nudel, the prisoner of Zion.

Secret Visits to Israel
Yet Hammer was often criticized by hard-line activists in the
Soviet Jewry movement for not exerting more overt pressure.  But
to many Israeli leaders and a former leader of a Soviet Jewry
organization, he was unfairly judged.

"At that time, one never knew what actually worked in terms of
pushing buttons," said Jerry Goodman, former executive director
of the National Conference on Soviet Jewry, who met with Hammer
often in Washington and Los Angeles.

"He was private.  His theory was that he could be more effective
if he didn't appear in public as intervening on behalf of Soviet
Jews," Goodman said.

Israeli government leaders spoke Tuesday of Hammer's secret 
visits to Israel on several occasions when he stayed at the
homes of Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan.

Labor Party leader Shimon Peres, a former prime minister, said
he, too, often met privately with Hammer.

Hammer carried secret messages to Moscow from Israeli leaders 
for years.

He was involved in the removal of an education tax imposed on
Soviet Jews wanting to leave, according to an interview with
Hammer in the fall edition of Inside, a magazine published by
the Jewish Exponent in Philadelphia.

Hammer, a millionaire from his youth, became a billionaire when
he bought the bankrupt Occidental Petroleum Corp. in 1957 for
a token $34,000.  The corporation's present estimated worth is
$8 billion.

He made a much bigger investment in Israel - some $60 million 
in a Negev oil prospecting project and offshore drilling, from
which, at the time of his death, he had not realized a penny 
of profit.

Hammer's business dealings with Libya and other Arab countries
made it prudent not to advertise his connections with Israel.
His 1984 visit to Jerusalem was publicly reported as his first.

Jerusalem Mayor Teddy Kollek said Hammer described himself as a
Zionist despite his ongoing contacts with the Arab world.

Hammer provided $1.6 million for a favored project of Tel Aviv
Mayor Shlomo Lahat, the Armand Hammer-Guilford Glazer Arab- 
Jewish Community Center in a rundown Tel Aviv neighborhood.

Hammer was born May 21, 1898, in New York to Dr. Julius Hammer,
A Russian Jewish immigrant, and Rose Robinson Hammer.

A graduate of Columbia University Medical School, Hammer did 
not practice medicine except briefly as a volunteer to combat
a typhus epidemic in post-revolution Russia.

There as a youth he arranged his first giant business deal, in
which the Soviet Union bartered American wheat for fur and 
caviar.

At 23, he was summoned to a personal interview with Lenin.  It 
is said that in exchange for Hammer's help, Lenin gave him
several paintings from Leningrad's Hermitage Museum, which 
started his multimillion dollar art collection.

(JTA correspondent Hugh Orgel in Tel Aviv contributed to this
 report.)