Conference taveng::bagels

    Lee,
    
    You have asked a very good question and it is not merely academic.
    I believe that when the Yovail (Jubilee in Hebrew) is actually observed
    then it is considered the end of a cycle and the following year
    is the first year of the next cycle. When the Yovail is not actually
    observed (like in our time) for various and sundry reasons, I believe
    that the authorities are in conflict exactly how to reckon the
    calender. Some say it is totally disregarded and every seven years
    is Shmita. Some say that eventhough it is not observed it should
    still be reckoned relative to Shmita. Some say that it should not
    be reckoned NOW but when the Yovail will again be observed then
    it should be reckoned RETROACTIVELY in order to redetermine what
    the status of the current year is. 
    
    I hope this hasn't totally confused you. I know that when I studied
    these areas in the Talmud that it did me.
    
    Cb. 

    re .1
    first: hi Chaim!
    Your answer confused me, and I thought I knew the answer to .0 !!!
    Correct me if I am wrong but what I think ( and what I think you
    also said) is that when the Yovel was observed then the 50th year
    was NOT the 1st year of the following shmittah cycle but was an
    "intervening" year (nisht-ahin-und-nisht-aher). Of course the YOVEL
    was hardly ever observed, not just because the people were sinful,
    but because the Yovel was suspended when the 10 tribes went into
    exile according to the main opinion of chazal, so that the time
    frame for its observance is a very short one indeed. (And of course
    during that time the people were not exactly known for scrupulous
    observance, to put it mildly.)
    "Nowadays" (which as noted is virtually all of Jewish history) there
    is no Yovel and the 50th year is simply the 1st year of the next
    7 year cycle, like the 36th or 43rd or ... -- i.e. nothing special
    about '50'. (This is the way we do it today in Israel. Maybe you
    could add here if there is anyone who goes by another psak as to
    the yovel. I mean I know there are opinions who say to ignore the
    whole shmittah thing altogether, but I am refering to
    a different opinion as to how to count the 50th year. Is there anyone
    who does differently "lhalacha"?)
    
    As I write this to you from Maynard I feel like saying
    libi bmizrach v'ani bsof ma'arav !
    shana tovah
    ps/moderator, excuse the personal "dash" to cb               

    Zaitch (that's how I've known him for many years),
    
    What you said in .2 is correct. I don't know of anyone who practices
    differently now adays. (Perhaps some of the Briskers or Chason Ishniks
    are "Nohaig Shviis l'chumrah" in a year that would have been "Yovail").
    
    If I recall correctly, potentially there is a problem when we
    start again celebrating "Yovail". The question is do we discount
    the past and start counting from year 1, do we figure out how many
    "Shmitas" have been and figure out which cycle and which year we're
    in, or do we go even further and compute cycle and year as if we've
    been counting "Yovail" all along.
    
    Shana Tova
    
    Cb.

   Chaim and Zaitch,
    Thank you both.

    So then if I understand correctly, the full Yovail cycle is 50 years.
    (Seven Shmita + Yovail). But since Yovail has not been observed
    in quite some time, Yovail is not counted if it is not observed.
    (Correct?) But counting of Shmita is continued and if Yovail were
    to be observed anew it should be calculated from the time of the last
    observed Yovail. (Am I keeping up?) I guess it's vague to me why
    if Yovail is not kept, it is not counted for the purposes of keeping
    track of when it would occur. I find  myself in the camp that says
    it should still be reckoned relative to Shmita. Hmmmmm. Well another 
    question: When does the next Shmita begin?
    
    Thanks again,
    lee
    

    Just noticed in Rambam (Maimonides) Laws of Shmittah & Yovel chpt
    10 para 3 a rather confusing comment that is much debated/discussed
    by the commentators ad loc: during the 2nd Temple period they did
    not observe the Yovel but DID "count" it in order to ...
    aha! the "..." ! that's the problem, viz. Rambam's text is unclear
    in meaning. He says "in order to sanctify the Shmittah years", but
    this seems to be in contradiction to what he says elsewhere, namely
    that the Shmittah years do not depend upon counting Yovel (as we
    all know). See the commentators for further discussion. I haven't
    really had a chance to figure it out but I just wanted to put you
    on to a specific text that relates to your own feeling in .4                
    
    -Zaitch 
    (I guess that is what I'll use as my name in this note!)

    T'anks for the reference. 

      It sounds like from this, then, that even though Yovel was not observed,
    that it was still reckoned. I wondered if this might not be the case at 
    some point, in some communities, in the time since Yovel was last observed. 

      I would like to entertain comments on the following passage as a brief
    and accurate assessment of the intent and value of Yovel observance.
    
    The wonderful provision of the Jubilee year can better be appreciated
    when one considers, not only the beneficial results to the individual
    Israelites, but especially the effect on the nation as a whole.
    When the Jubilee arrangement was properly observed, the nation was
    restored in the Jubilee year to the full and proper theocratic state
    that G-d purposed and established at the beginning. Government was
    on a sound basis. The national economy would always be stable and
    the nation would have no crushing debt. The Jubilee brought about
    a stable standard of land values and also prevented a great internal
    debt and its resultant false prosperity, bringing inflation, deflation
    and business depression. The benefits to the individual strengthened
    the nation, for none would be underprivileged and crushed into
    unproductiveness by a bad economic situation, but all could contribute
    their talents and abilities to the national welfare. With the Almighty
    providing blessings of the yield of the ground and with the education
    that was provided, Israel, while obedient, would enjoy the perfect
    government and prosperity that only true theocracy could provide.
     
Thanks again,
lee

Does anyone know the actual date of the Sabbatical year or the last Jubilee
year?

Dave

    The Hebrew year 5747 ( sept 86-sept 87) was the last Sabbatical
    (shimta) year.

    ---Av

    er:.6
    That _does_ have a :-) attached to it, doesn't it?
    
    Definition of "perfect theocracy":  When _I_ rule with absolute power,
    and everyone else agrees that I'm God's true one and only prophet.
    (Relative addressing applies:  All readers use first person.  Note
    potential for endless loop.) 

    BTW, what would your mortgage payments be if there were 3 years
    left to Yovail and you needed to borrow $150,000?

    Re: .-1
    
    Would you borrow $150,000 for a three year rental?  That is $50,000
    per year, over $4,000 per month.  The total for 50 years would be
    $2.5 million.  Even around Boston, that is expensive property!
    
    Property "values" are highest after Jubilee, and drop until the
    next one.
    
    					Paul