Conference taveng::bagels

526.0. "Who Is a Jew/Jewish Learning" by HPSVAX::ROSENBLUH () Wed Aug 24 1988 18:35

	(Copied here from note 484)


I will (finally) address two questions directed to me in this note.  
Sorry about the long delay. It's not going to get better any time soon
as I'll be out of town for about 2 weeks starting Thursday.

	1) - What is a 'sufficient' knowledge of Judaism in order to
	be considered capable of making a real choice?

I'm not really going to answer this question.  I'll tell
you how I believe it is possible to acquire the required knowledge,
instead of telling you what exactly that knowledge is.

I don't consider the requirement to be in terms of number of facts
known.  I think there are two ways to acquire sufficient knowledge.
One is by purely intellectual means, perhaps starting by reading popularized
accounts of Jewish religion and history,  but it is essential that one 
progress finally to an ability to learn on one's own.  To learn
what?  Well, for instance, to start with the question I was asked to
answer, and find, read and understand the Jewish sources that address that
issue.  This is a major task to be starting as an adult since it 
requires learning both a REALLY foreign language (not Indo-European) 
and a different style of textual analysis.  

The other way is by being in close contact for a developmentally significant
portion of one's life with role models who demonstrate faithfully 
what it is to live a Jewish life.  To live day-in day-out with people
who pray 3 times a day and expect that you will do the same, with people
who keep shabat every shabat, who learn regularly, who allow Jewish
values and considerations to inform their personal relationships with 
their fellow-men.

To sum up: Jewish learning and Jewish practice.  That does not
mean knowing *about* Jewish practice, but rather living it.  
And it is not enough to understand the methods of Jewish learning,
one must be able to apply them, one must have experienced applying them
to a considerable body of Jewish texts.  

Both of these methods are rather difficult for an adult to achieve - 
they require an extraordinary commitment.  Both are easy and natural to
achieve within a family that lives a Jewish life, and educates their
children in Jewish texts and learning.  

Anyway, although for an adult the first steps in learning about Judaism
will almost certainly involve reading secondary literature ABOUT Judaism,
that alone is not enough and on it's own is not likely to ever result
in the kind of "knowing Judaism" that I mean. 

	2) What are the sources on the question of whether the
	child of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is a Jew?

	(This is actually the same question as "What is the halachic 
	definition of a Jew"  or "How come halacha considers Barry
	a Jew even tho he says he's a Christian")

I'm not going to give an exposition on the subject because I don't
have time, I won't be around to reply to the inevitable misunderstandings
for the next 2 weeks, and finally because it would be very difficult.
It would be possible, but in the course of explaining how Judaism
deals with this one question, I would have to explain many underlying
concepts, assumptions, and forms of inquiry and reasoning about texts.

I think a better idea is to let those of you who are interested in the
issue to work out as much of it as you feel interested in on your own.
I'll get you started by giving you place references that I have found.  
Perhaps others who know more than I do will add to this discussion.

So, I have found two lines of reasoning on this, both end up with 
the same answer.

1) Deut 7:4, and Rashi on that verse.
   See Bavli Yevamot 23a for more, and Rabbenu Tam for a different view 
   than Rashi's.
	
2) Kiddushin chap 3 mishna 12 
	but note the difficulty the mishna has elsewhere in determining the
	status of Herod.
   Bavli Kiddushin 68b

	There are 2 widely available translations of the Mishna.
	There are 2 English translations of Rashi that you could try...
	on the other hand, this Rashi happens to depend on a point
	of Hebrew grammer, making it a bit hard to understand in English,
	but not impossible.

	There's the Soncino translation of the Talmud, but no Eng. trans.
	of Rashi on Gemara or R. Tam that I know of.

	A good Judaica collection will have all these...In the Boston area,
	you could find all the books you need to do this at the Hebrew
	College (1-year library card is 7 bucks), at Wiedner (forget it
	unless you have a close friend at Harvard), at the Harvard Hillel
	Library (no borrowing, but anyone can use the library).  Other 
	university libraries probably also have this stuff, esp. BU.
	
According to the Encyclopedia Judaica (recent edition, article "Jew" 
subsection "in Halakha", thanks Fern), all of the codifications of Jewish
law, starting with the Yad (Issurei Bi'ah 15:3-4) understand the 
answer to this question the same way.  A very small minority of individual
responsa, especially to the question "May one lend money at interest to
a meshumad" muddy the waters slightly, but this minority view has never
gained broad acceptance.   

I hope somebody takes me up on this and tries to learn it on their
own.  Let me know how it goes.

	Kathy

Somewhere in the discussion of Messianic Jews, from which this note has
spun off, the question of conversion came up.

Since Judaism doesn't have an "official" priesthood (or does it?), can
a non-Jew convert to Judaism without a rabbinical "blessing"?

Martin.

    Re: .1
    
    The answer is, of course you can convert to Judaism without a
    rabbinic approval.
    
    On the other hand, if you want someone to recognize that you are
    Jewish, you enter an amazing quagmire filled with disagreements
    between Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and numerous sub-groups
    who don't recognize each other's rabbis...
    
    				Paul
    

>        On the other hand, if you want someone to recognize that you are
>    Jewish, you enter an amazing quagmire filled with disagreements
>    between Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and numerous sub-groups
>    who don't recognize each other's rabbis...
    
    The London Beth Din is an exception to this rule, as conversion
    by them is regarded as good by other Rabbis the world over. 
    It's a long process.
    
    Malcolm

    I'll bet that somewhere, perhaps in New York, perhaps in Zefat or
    in Mea Sherim, I can find a rabbi who won't accept, without meeting
    and talking to the person, that a London Beth Din convert is a Jew.
    
    Of course, the only people who can prove that they ARE Jewish are
    converts.  The rest of us make the assumption that our great**n
    grandmother was Sara, or was a convert who was properly converted.
    
    
    				Paul
    

>... grandmother was Sara, or was a convert who was properly converted.
    
	Thank G-d the old style of converting is out...David was
	pretty good at this:

		Wave sword
		Declare "pagan" as Jewish
		Wave sword...off with his head!

Arguing with a bunch of Rabbis is a lot more fun and not so dangerous :-).