Conference taveng::bagels

    I am going to try to respond to each idea.  It may be a little
    messy.  The following is my opinion.  If you disagree, respond.
    Please send all flames to NL:

>    I would like to know how the readers of this conference feel about
>    intermarriage?

    It is always up to the individuals.  But they should always consider
    the ramifications.  This doesn't just mean children.  It means other
    family members.  It means dealing with the religious observances of
    the spouse.  It means all of the little pieces of behaviour that
    are ingrained from differences of culture.

>    I, personally, would never allow my religion to stop me from marrying
>    someone I love.

    If you held your religion strongly, then you would follow its rules.
    The rules of Judaism frown on intermarriage.  However, I am not going
    to tell you what to believe or how strongly.

>                    I can not understand how a person can give up the
>    one person they love for another person, of the same faith, but who
>    they do not love.

    Nobody says you have to do that.  Eventually, most people will find
    someone they love of the same faith, if they look hard enough.

>                      I have always felt that this is the cause of many
>    bad marriages.

    Arranged marriages have a much higher success rate than marriages
    for love.  That doesn't mean that I agree with them.
    
>    Of course, there is the problems associated with intermarriage.
>    The most obvious is the children. How do you raise them? Do you
>    explain and expose them to both religions, and then let them chose?

    That, of course, is the heart of the problem with kids in an
    intermarriage.  As far as Judaism is concerned, you can also
    run into the problem of whether the children ARE Jews.  That,
    however, is a different discussion and should not be pursued
    here.

>    Are there groups out there for intermarried families? 

    Yes.  Many large Conservative and Reform congregations have
    outreach programs for intermarried couples.  Check in your
    area.

>    I would like to hear some feedback on these questions. Please do
>    not mention conversion because that is the obvious answer for every
>    question.

    Just because it is the obvious answer does not make it a wrong one.
    What I would suggest instead, is for the non-Jewish partner to at
    least learn about Judaism.  Maybe that partner will find it
    attractive enough to want to join  8^{).

    L'hit,
    Gavriel

>   Of course, there is the problems associated with intermarriage.
>   The most obvious is the children. How do you raise them? Do you
>   explain and expose them to both religions, and then let them chose?

My (Reform) rabbi has said (and I agree) that by exposing the children of mixed
marriages to both religions they become neither "fish nor fowl". It is better
for the child's "religiosity" for the parents to chose just one religion in
which to train the child.

Dave

As for the conversion issue, I did not mean that it was the wrong solution.
    I just meant that I have already investigated it. If my future spouse
    wanted to convert, of course I would support her; I also would support
    her if she did not want to convert.
    
    I think the most important responsibility I have is to continue
    practicing the Jewish customs, and teaching my children about them.
    I look at Judaism as my heritage. Similiar to the way Italians or
    Greeks practice the customs of their homelands. That is important
    to me because I am proud to have Jewish blood in me, and I want my
    kids to be too. I do not feel it is necessary to uphold all the
    religious aspects of Judaism in order to be a proud Jew.
    
    I guess I am lucky because I have worked out a lot of the problems
    of intermarriage. We have decided to raise the children Jewish (In
    terms of a Bris over a Christening, and a Bar/Bat Mitzvah).
    
    I just hope that we find a good support group, such as the ones
    mentioned in note 509. It feels good to know you are not alone.

Mazel tov. My uncle married a non-Jew. He always _hoped_ his daughters would
choose Judaism but neither did.

When the Jewish partner is female, all branches of Judaism agree the children
are Jewish and ought to be raised Jewish. If it's the other way arround in your
case, it wouldn't hurt to discuss the issues with a rabbi. The Reform branch of
Judaism would accept such children as Jewish but the other branches won't (I
don't know about Reconstructionists??). 

Dave

    I am non-affiliated, and my wife is a non-Jew. I consider myself
    not only to be a Jew on grounds of birth, but also socially
    a Jew, though non-religious, on the would-you-stand-up-and-be-counted
    principle. Many of my relatives were counted.
    
    My wife is also uncommitted to religion. We have made the secular
    choice.
    
    I would hate to have been faced with a real conflict between my
    religious beliefs and the relationship, but for the adults
    involved there can be a choice, to practise their religion
    partially, but without the richness that compatibility of
    belief (or non-belief ) brings and without the opportunity for
    a full home-life in either religion.
    Doesn't that mean that the religious belief is in some way
    compromised? Those more religious than me may feel able to say.
    
    For myself my Jewish loyalties are divided. To be a non-practising
    Jew does not mean you can turn your back on Judaism, at least
    not with a good conscience. World-history has seen to that.
    Besides there is too much of enormous value in the Jewish
    heritage to wish to be cut off from the history of my own people.
    However it isn't easy.
    
    Now for the most difficult problem - the children.
    
    You musn't fool yourself. A child brought up in two religions is
    brought up completely in neither of them. To me a religious code
    demands continuous practise, and therefore a full home-life is
    essential for a child to know the depth of that religion.
    I guess we have passed on to our two children a problem of
    our creation ( what generation didn't pass its problems on to
    its children ? ). Are they Jewish or not ? 
    They may make a religious choice later but we are not encouraging
    them to make any commitment, so will they resent their secular
    upbringing ?
    
    I hope they will take their place in a secular world, without
    forgetting the Jewish element in their heritage - and to me
    how they behave as human beings is more important than anything else.
    But I accept it may be more difficult for them to orientate
    themselves than it is for us.
    
    (Sorry to ramble on, but this is one tough subject.)
    
    I think the world has seen enough of religion without love to
    hopefully accept that love without religion might be better. And
    it seems to me that those who have both should be careful about
    giving too much advice to others who have to make the choice or at least
    have to compromise.             
    
    
    Tony Kline. Birmingham, England.
    
    
    
    
    

	FYI -
    
    The New York Times ran a fairly long story on this subject today
    (18 Aug, p C1, cont C10) which included interviews with a number
    of intermarried couples and a list of books that have been written
    on the subject (relatively) recently.  (It's fairly long, so I don't
    want to type it in.)
    
    	Aaron

    How do the rest of you feel about the (to my mind, unseemly) hubbub
    in the press lately about Kitty Dukakis's "effrontery" in marrying
    someone like Mike, who is Greek Orthodox?  Apart from whom you plan
    to vote for or vote against, I mean (US national politics is surely
    a discussion for some other conference, preferrably one I don't
    read anyhow, such as the soapbox ;-).   A good deal of this criticism
    appears to be coming from other Jewish people, which is why I consider
    it rather "unseemly", in that I think that religious issues (especially
    knotty ones like intermarriage) are not proper subjects for judging
    secular political candidates, and are no better than any other sort of
    mudslinging (which, again, belongs somewhere else).   How do the
    rest of you feel about this kind of "news" coverage?  Do you think
    it is an appropraite subject for the secular press to be discussing?

    I am not in favor of Jews marrying non-Jews; however, this type
    of marrige should not be a campaign issue.  I do have concerns about
    Kitty Dukakis as a role model.  During the past few years she has
    been honored as "Woman of the Year" etc by various Temple Sisterhoods.
    I know that Kitty has done many wonderful things in the realm of
    Holocaust Rememberance and other issues, but I wonder what underlying
    message is given to our children when Jewish institutions honor
    people who intermarry and (in this specific case) do not bring up
    their children as Jews.(Maybe this is a discussion for another note,
    too? :^] )
    
    I find it interesting that Kitty has stated that she looks forward
    to having a seder in the White House.  She has not had a seder in
    her own house here in Brookline... :^)
    
    ---Av

    I thought Kitty was going for the one exception to the prohibition
    against intermarriage.
    
    For reference, see the book of Esther, or attend any schul on Purim.

I am a 'child' of intermarriage. 

When I was 17, I learned from my mother that she was Jewish.  She did 
not volunteer this information willingly.  She grew up in New Rochelle,
New York, and had perfect attendence and excellent grades in Reform 
Hebrew school which she attended until she went to college.  In 
college, she converted to Christianity -- she became a Seventh Day 
Adventist.  At about the same time, my uncle and my grandparents also 
converted.  They had changed the family name from Sussman to Sims in 
the early '30's.  They all did this because they felt enormous pressure 
from a predominantly anti-Semitic culture in the late 1930's.  The 
other interesting bit is that my great grandmother, Teresa Dreyfus, was 
first cousin to Alfred Dreyfus and contemporary to the affair.  She 
lived with my mother's family when my mother was growing up and died 
about 1940.  Religion was always important to my mother.

My father was a Swedish Lutheran from Minnesota.  He grew up in a 
small town where the social life centered around the church.  My 
great-great grandfather Gustavson was a founder of that church and my 
grandparents are buried there.  He was always a deeply religious 
person.

I grew up in a Protestant mish-mash.  I was baptized Congregationalist
(in Dublin, Ohio, that was the only church left standing after a 
twister went through town).  Through high school, I attended 
Presbyterian churches and a Quaker school.  When I left my parents 
home, I attended Quaker meeting regularly.  When I married an 
Episcopalian, I attended his church and moved to Princeton, NJ.  In the 
academic community, I began to meet many Jewish people who had a 
strong sense of Jewish identity.  One woman had a Jewish father, an 
Episcopalian mother, and a strong Jewish grandfather.  When she was in 
college, she had a Orthodox conversion.  She was one of the first 
people with whom I openly and freely talked about being Jewish (the 
other was my mother's childhood best friend).  I began discreetly 
reading books about Judaism.  I learned that my husband's family was 
quite anti-Semitic.

Three years after I married, my mother was diagnosed as having Krone's 
(sp?) disease, a Jewish hereditary disease.  She was quite unhappy 
about this, but as a result of counseling she began to talk to me 
about being Jewish and to tell me her family history.  I told my 
husband and my in-laws that my mother was Jewish.  My in-laws were 
rather nasty.  Then I made an unexpected and long business trip to 
Israel -- and loved it!  I worked hard, but for the first time in my 
life felt completely a part of my surroundings.  I visited religious 
friends of friends for Shabbats and Pesach.  I was eventually divorced.

I gradually became more involved in Judaism.  Sometimes I could 
discuss it with my mother.  My father did not understand this at all. 
It has taken me many years to come this far (I am 37 years old).  In 
March I married a Jewish man in an Orthodox ceremony.  (We were 
married by Alan Zaitchik's father.)  

I know few people my age with this experience with intermarriage.  I 
find myself with two strong and distinct identities, neither which I 
can deny.  How can I reconcile my choice of Judaism (my four siblings 
are Christian) with my love for my father who never understood my 
sense of my self (or my mother's, a tragedy of their marriage) no 
matter how many seders and Shabbat dinners he attended with me.  I 
still have much to resolve.  I sometimes wonder if these are questions 
which my mother and her forebearers were reluctant to address.

Yours,
Meredith Malmberg

    I believe that intermarriage can work, but it will be much, much
    harder.  You will be starting out with one, or maybe two, strikes
    against you.

    When I decided 5 years ago to marry a non-Jew, I thought that we had
    enough in common that the religious difference wouldn't matter.  After
    all, neither of us was at all observant, and he agreed to a Jewish
    wedding (what a fiasco!), and raising the children Jewish.

    Well, this summer we decided to divorce.  It would be a gross over-
    simplification to state that the difference in religion was the only
    reason, but the differences between our cultures caused many problems,
    and put up roadblocks to our solving them.

    We still love each other, but sometimes that's just not enough.  For
    both your sakes, make sure that your cultures and belief systems are
    similar enough for you to be able to work things through.

    Beverly