Conference taveng::bagels

    Sure Malcolm, I know a good book. It's called, I believe,
    "What Christians Should Know about Judaism". Written by
    a *real* Jew. ;-) 
    
    I would be a good book for both of them to read.
    I can get you the author's name and publisher if you like.
    
    'Course, coming from a Christian, the recommendation would 
    probably make it suspect...
    
    sigh.
    ;-)
    
    Irena              
                                                              

    
    Hi Malcolm--
    
    You might want to try "Orphan in History" by Paul Cowan.  It's his
    personal experiences, but it touches on some of the issues,
    and he deals with it well.
    
    Last year (before I started at DEC) I worked for a Jewish foundation
    in NYC as a case study writer.  I traveled all across the U.S. talking
    to people about how they became more (or less) religiously observant.
    (I wrote a series of case studies, based on interviews with people,
    their families, their friends, and their rabbinic advisors, which
    is being used to train rabbis to do better keruv (outreach) work.)
    One thing I found about intermarriage couples: it was common for
    the marriage itself to provoke the Jewish partner into finding out
    more about his/her heritage; in several cases it led to a dissolution
    of the marraige (accompanied by, in a number of cases, a turn towards an
    observant lifestyle.)  This is not, of course, the rule, and it
    could work either way; but I did see a lot of cases where this
    happened.  An interesting phenomenon. 
                               
    Many synagogues in the U.S. offer intermarriage pre-marriage
    counseling, to explore some of the issues and problems.  Perhaps
    you could find something like that if they'd be interested?
                                         
    Makes one feel sort of helpless, doesn't it?
    

    Malcolm,
    
    Try "9 questions people ask about Jews" by Tolushcan and Praeger.
     It's a short, but clear response to questions about Judaism.
    
    I'm not familiar with books about how to make intermarriage successful.
    There are often articles in newspapers around Xmas and Passover times
    dealing with those topics.
    
    This situation shows the fuzzy thinking that happens nowadays...
    worrying about a Kosher kitchen, but not about a kosher marriage.
    Sigh...Sigh.
    
    ---Av 

"An Uncommon People" by Charles Silberman is a recent sociologicol/historical
review of the state of Jews and Judaism in America.  Silberman discusses
intermarriage at some length, and talks about the various outcomes that
intermarried couples experience. (It's out in paperback now.)

Egon Mayer recently (within the last 5 years) wrote a book which 
talks in great detail about intermarried couples.  (sorry i forget the name.)
Marital problems and how they handle them, family (in-law) problems, 
divorce rates, conversion rates, how Jewish the children are, etc.

Both writers discuss statistical survey findings that show

o that in over 1/3 of intermarried couples,
  the non-Jewish spouse eventually converts (more often when the non-Jew
  is the woman than when the non-Jew is the man)

o that the Jewish spouse very infrequently converts to Christianity

o that (statistically speaking) more than half the children of intermarried
  couples identify as Jews in a broad sense (that is, both culturally and
  religiously).

These books discuss the American Jewish experience but they would
still probably be interesting to a Briton facing intermarriage with
questions about likely outcomes.

Silberman also refers (very offhandedly) to the "very small but
growing" number of Orthodox-ly identifying Jews who intermarry.
(And if you think this never happens, think again.  It's pretty rare, though.)

I would like to second the recommendation someone gave to Paul
Cowan's book.  It is a personal and emotional accounting
of the Cowan's spiritual journey. The brief version is; they
started out as an intermarried couple in which the Jewish partner knew
more about Episcopalian Christianity than about Judaism, and ended
up as pretty observant Conservative/Havurah-type Jews.

Last of all, if your friend is going to marry this person anyway,
my advice is; don't cause them grief.  A certain amount of generous
acceptance will go a long way towards helping them make the best
of the situation. (Including a possible eventual conversion on the part
of the non-Jewish spouse.) On the other hand, if your friend is asking you
for an opinion, maybe s/he's not so sure s/he wants to marry this person.
In that case, if it were me, I'd encourage them to hold out for 
someone more compatible with their life goals (which apparently include
Judaism).  If you clearly tell them you don't think they
should marry, and they do anyway, there might well be an estrangement
between you and your friend.

Kathy

Oh yes, my favorite book about the differences between
Christianity and Judaism is by Robert Gordis.  Does
anyone out there recall the name of this book?  

    Of what I observed, your friend and his wife will be VERY isolated, at
    least in the early beginnings of their marriage. She will not easily be
    accepted by his friends and vice-versa. The best service you can do
    him/them is to help to overcome this isolation. And who knows, maybe
    you will learn to know a nice person? 
    
    Re. some previous: I'm afraid that kosher rules, which are rational,
    will hardly be applicable to such an irrational event like love.
    
    Chris
    
    P.S.:	Review with your friend the film "Guess who's coming for
    		dinner?". If you cut off the happy end, you and him
		will get a rough idea on what his out for. Only that
    		persons in real life tend to show less respect and
    		understanding for differently thinking/looking/being
    		individuals. And are less polite.
    		rough

RE .1

The correct title is "What Christians Should Know about Jews and Judaism."
The publisher is Word out of Waco, TX (a Christian religious publisher).
The author is Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein (BTW, one of the original Rabbis' Sons).
He is a legitimate rabbi (Y.U. Semicha, left-wing Orthodox) who's involved in 
an interfaith group in Chicago.  He's a friend of my wife's, and he sat
at the head table at our wedding.  I haven't read the book, so I'm not
sure that it's appropriate for your friend, but it probably _is_ for
his fiance�.

I suppose it's too late to recommend "The Jewish Way in Love and Marriage"
by Lamm and "Made in Heaven" by Kaplan.  Both are excellent books about
_Jewish_ marriage, which your friend has decided to eschew.

    Malcolm,
    
    I believe I understand how you feel.
    
    When you come down to it your friend is actually being very selfish.
    What I mean is that he's worrying about HIS own Jewishness while
    totally disregarding the responsibility he hes to HIS people and
    any future children he may have.
    
    Whether you'll be able to convey this idea to him is up to you,
    but those are the facts of life.
    
    Good luck...
    
    Cb.

    .all
    
    Maybe another perspective is in line here, and that is " NO advise maybe the
    best advise ". Letting your two friends work out their own issues
    keeps you free of possibly losing them both as friends. What ever
    they decide as opposed to what you help them decide feels more
    comfortable to me.

    re: .7
    
    >The correct title is "What Christians Should Know about Jews and Judaism."
    >The publisher is Word out of Waco, TX (a Christian religious publisher).
    >The author is Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein (BTW, one of the original Rabbis' Sons).
    >He is a legitimate rabbi (Y.U. Semicha, left-wing Orthodox) who's involved in  
  
    Yes, thank you. I tried to enter the information this morning, but
    the system failed.
    
    >I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure that it's appropriate for 
    >your friend, but it probably _is_ for his fiance�.                       
                                     
     I have the book, and have read it carefully and thoughtfully.      
     The reason I felt the book is very appropriate is that Rabbi Eckstein
     discusses the *differences* between Judaism and Christianity from
     clearly a Jewish perspective. It is clear, concise, direct. 
     Overall, I have to give him credit for a very fine, fair and
     realistic discussion of the problems and issues. I believe that 
     this matter of *difference*, presented with a Jewish frame of
     reference, is what Malcolm was asking about in the base  note.
                                                                
     Irena
    
    

Malcolm,

I am married to a non-Jew.  While Peter is really an agnostic, I am very
traditional (candles on Sabbath and festivals, observing Pesach,
Rosh Hashonah, Yom Kippur, Chanukah, etc.), and have been this way since
my father died (before I was married).  Because neither Peter nor I are 
very religious (temple/church, etc.), we have a very pain-free 
relationship regarding any religious issues, by both observing each 
other's holidays/traditions which we feel are important.

If your friend and his fiance are both religious, then the conflicts 
will ultimately result, especially when it comes to raising children.  I 
believe if we are all honest with our feelings on this matter, then 
children become the religious issue in a relationship.  I am not 
able to bear children, but before knowing this, Peter and I discussed in 
detail how the children would be raised.  It is very important for your 
friend to do so; however, even with the best intentions it always seems 
to foul up when presented with the reality.

If your friend's fiance is not religious, then the conflict won't be 
from her feelings directly, but from her family's pressure/feelings.
She will either bow to family pressure, possibly convert depending on 
how much pressure she receives from his family (none is best); they will 
split up; the marriage will cause a rift in both/either families, etc.

This is not an easy decision because, as we all know, love doesn't 
conquer all.  A good, stable, loving relationship is hard enough work 
without having any added presssures.

Perhaps relaying this information to your friend, *gently*, will help, 
*but* my best advice is to be there for them, but say little.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Joan

    Malcom, 
    
    I know this is a bit late, but better late than never...
    
    Joan's comments are real and sensative.  She is living through the
    conflict you friend is facing.
    
    I was on the edge of this conflict, but different fron Joan, we
    ended the relationship.  My thinking boiled down to this:
    
    Judiasm, for me, is how I live.  It isn't the decision to light candles
    on Shabbat, or participate in the Seder, but rather, it is what
    I am.  I could never ask anyone to give up what he is to become
    what I am.  It wouldn't work.  I've had 25 years of "living jewish";
    it's all I've truly known.  Marriage is, to me, a merging of 2 lives.
    To have to do this piece alone would be too hard, and would leave
    me, ultimately, unfulfilled.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    
    -Sue Kur
    
    P.S. Paul and Rachel Cowan have written a second book, the title
    of which escapes me.  It is discussions with intermarried couples.

    Hi,
    
    I know that I've been a bit quiet on this topic lately
    but I'd like to thank you all. I'm still listening and
    trying to absorb what you say.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Malcolm

    Two of the biggest stumbing blocks will be: the wedding (what will
    the relatives say?) and how to raise the children.  If your friend
    lives in the Boston area, I strongly suggest he contact the JCC
    in Brookline or Newton.  They can put him in touch with an organization
    that deals with interfaith marriages.  There is a "hot line" number
    they will give him with the name of the organization (I think it
    is the Hebrew Congregation in Brookline).  There is an ex-nun who
    runs several programs for interfaith couples, she is wonderful and
    will talk to the couple about issues they should deal with BEFORE
    they are married.
    
    Any decent sized book store (or the Book Fair in Needham) will carry
    two very important books they should read.  "But How Do We Raise
    the Children" and Rachel Cowan's book mentioned earlier.  They are
    both written by Jews, but DEAL with the reality of an interfaith
    marriage, something you rarely see on the other side.
    
    There are also some reform temples that open their doors to interfaith
    couples, as well as the "Paulists" in Boston who are offering an
    "alternative" religion: it is run by Priests but offer the Jewish
    perspective with visiting Rabbis.
    
    Have your friend discuss HOW he wants to raise HIS CHILDREN NOW...
    don't wait until they are about to be delivered to suddenly find
    out that your spouse has other ideas!
    
    Good luck!

    re: .4 The Silberman book is called "A Certain People"
    
    re: .12 The Cowan book is "Mixed Blessings"
    
    Waky