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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

499.0. "Friedman meets 'innocent' Waldheim" by ULYSSE::LEHKY (I'm phlegmatic, and that's cool) Wed Jul 13 1988 06:30

    Here is a short transcript of what I heard on the news today (Austrian
    Press Agency):
    
    �The Israeli Nazi hunter Tovje (?) Friedman had a second meeting with
    Mr. Waldheim, yesterday. After this meeting, he told reporters that
    the World Jewish congress had all reasons to present his excuses
    to Mr. Waldheim. He also said that Waldheim seems to have served
    as the fall guy for many others. He called the austrian Jews to
    support president Waldheim.�
    
    I admit, I'm puzzled. For those who do not know: I am actually
    Austrian, but decided 4 years ago to go live in France, hence this
    emotionally attracts my interest. However, I doubt that I have respect
    for Waldheim (or should I, now?).
    
    The point is: can one of the contributors to this notes file tell
    me more about this man Friedman? What's his reputation? Does the
    press in Israel or the US mention any of this?
    
    Confused,
    
    Chris
    
    P.S.:	Don't let this topic degenerate into a Waldheim discussion!!!
    		But then...
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499.1VAXWRK::ZAITCHIKFri Jul 22 1988 09:4010
    My impression is that Tuvia Friedman often does things that run
    counter to what other "Nazi Hunters" do/say. If memory serves me
    he also figured in some way in the Demjanjuk trial, FOR the defence
    I believe (but the details escape me...)
    Anyway, why should Friedman's comments make you change your opinion
    of Waldheim? Isn't the main thing NOT what Waldheim may personally
    have done / not done during the war but RATHER his total lack of
    honesty, personal integrity and guilt-feelings during all those
    years SINCE then. If only the man had cried out "Yes, I did those
    things and I am guilty, but I beg forgiveness!"
499.2I'm stableULYSSE::LEHKYI'm phlegmatic, and that's coolMon Jul 25 1988 11:4031
    (Sorry for the late reply, I enjoyed vacation)
    
    OK, so I'm going to give my views on this topic.
    
    1.)You bet I'm NOT going to change my opinion on the person Waldheim.
    Accept my apologies for not having added the :^) symbol to my
    statement. 
    
    2.)He is an opportunist of the worst kind. All he is interested in is a
    CHAIR, and he doesn't give a damn to what harm he causes, as long as he
    can keep it. Some examples:
    
    - as Austrian Minister for Foreign Affairs, he sent in 1968 a message
    to the then ambassador in Prague to not give austrian Visa to
    Checoslovaquian applicants. The ambassador refused to do so and
    continued delivering the visa (thanks G-d). His name: Kirchschl�ger,
    Austria's previous president.

    - as UNO Secretary General, he was much quicker in condemning Israeli
    action vs. the PLO than the other way 'round, which allowed for the
    creation of a strong pro-PLO lobby, whith the results that we all know:
    terrorism became a cavalier's act, and not only in the PLO-Israel
    context. If I was to extrapolate: the current Lebanon situation
    is partly a result of his non-acting.
    
    - as the current President of Austria, he is causing this country so
    much damage that if he was taking his job seriously, he would resign.
    
    Chris

    P.S.: In Austria, we say that he 'got glue under his ass' (sorry).
499.3Waldheim and CzechsVAXWRK::ZAITCHIKTue Jul 26 1988 11:0614
    I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT WALDHEIM'S INSTRUCTIONS TO THE AUSTRIAN PRAGUE
    AMBASSADOR. THANKS FOR THE INFO. IT JUST MAKES ME THINK EVEN LESS
    OF THE MAN! DO YOU THINK HE WAS TRYING TO PLEASE THE SOVIETS SO
    AS TO IMPROVE HIS CHANCES TO GET THE SEC. GEN. CHAIR AT THE UN?
    THAT WOULD FIT HIS IMAGE AS A SELF-SERVING BUREAUCRAT WITH NO PRINCIPLES
    OF ANY SORT. IRONICALLY I HAVE HEARD SOME PEOPLE TRY TO "EXCUSE"
    WALDHEIM BY SAYING THAT HE WASN'T REALLY A NAZI SYMPATHIZER, BUT
    HE WAS JUST TRYING TO GET AHEAD. I DON'T KNOW --- IT IS KIND OF
    "FUNNY" --- BUT IN A WAY I THINK I WOULD RESPECT A PERSON MORE IF
    HE ACTUALLY COMMITTED ATROCITIES OUT OF SOME SORT OF MISGUIDED,
    EVEN SATANIC, BELIEF AND IDEOLOGY THAN OUT OF MERE CAREERISM!
    (AT LEAST IF HE LATER GENUINELY REALIZED HIS GUILT AND TRIED TO
    ATONE FOR IT.)
    Alan
499.4The man without proprietiesULYSSE::LEHKYI'm phlegmatic, and that's coolWed Jul 27 1988 06:0657
    >DO YOU THINK HE WAS TRYING TO PLEASE THE SOVIETS SO AS TO IMPROVE HIS
    >CHANCES TO GET THE SEC. GEN. CHAIR AT THE UN? 
    
    Well, he was 'white-washed' by the US Secret Services after WWII, which
    makes fun of the fact that NOW they put him on the watch list! Both the
    US and the USSR did _always_ know about the guy's past. The advantage
    for both of them: NO DECISIONS in matters which concern them. 
    
    >THAT WOULD FIT HIS IMAGE AS A SELF-SERVING BUREAUCRAT WITH NO
    >PRINCIPLES OF ANY SORT. 
    
    Agreed. He's the incarnated career-guile 'man without proprieties'.
    For that matter, read Musil's book with the same title (I think!,
    in German, it's 'Der Mann ohne Eigenschaften'). You'll find a lot
    of people mirrorred.
    
    One of the characteristics of such people is the absence of any feeling
    of guilt, they just completed their duty, they think they are 'like
    anybody else', and, definitely, very rarely do they cause DIRECT harm
    to others. This is why Waldheim just cannot understand the uproar
    regarding his person.
    
    >IRONICALLY I HAVE HEARD SOME PEOPLE TRY TO "EXCUSE" WALDHEIM BY SAYING
    >THAT HE WASN'T REALLY A NAZI SYMPATHIZER, BUT HE WAS JUST TRYING TO GET
    >AHEAD. 
    
    See, this is where it becomes touchy. Waldheim is no sympathizer of
    anything but himself. And all he really did was 'signing papers'. And
    even this cannot be proven. The American Govt. claims that they have
    some proofs, but refuse to make them public. He's just slimy as a
    trout. In my eyes, the problem isn't really WHAT HE DID, it's more WHAT
    HE DID NOT, i.e., it might have been easy for him not to organize (or
    to participate at the organization of) the deportation of the Saloniki
    Jews. He did not abstain. He did not not join the SA or the NSDAP. He
    did not speak up and review his past, publicly. Oh no, the guy didn't
    lie to the Austrian voters, he just withheld major chunks of the truth. 
    
    For many other people which I know, the above statement is true. For
    instance, if one refused to join the Wehrmacht, he was a dead man.
    
    But Waldheim was a party member, he was in the SA, etc... Now, nobody,
    even under the nazi regime, forced you to adhere to the NSDAP, leave
    alone the SA. Waldheim did it, because he thought it might help his
    career.
    
    >I DON'T KNOW --- IT IS KIND OF "FUNNY" --- BUT IN A WAY I THINK I WOULD
    >RESPECT A PERSON MORE IF HE ACTUALLY COMMITTED ATROCITIES OUT OF SOME
    >SORT OF MISGUIDED, EVEN SATANIC, BELIEF AND IDEOLOGY THAN OUT OF MERE
    >CAREERISM! (AT LEAST IF HE LATER GENUINELY REALIZED HIS GUILT AND TRIED
    >TO ATONE FOR IT.) Alan 
    
    Personally, I have zero respect for either of them. But I can
    'understand' the motivations of, say, a Mengele better than the
    Twilight Zone reasons for Waldheim's actions. Mengele can much easier
    be classified into categories. His personality can be 'grabbed'.

    Chris    
499.5Who did Friedman HUNT?ULYSSE::LEHKYI'm phlegmatic, and that's coolFri Jul 29 1988 10:3112
    Enlighten my ignorance, please:
    
    Who is this man Tuvie Friedman, anyway? What is it that characterizes
    him as "Nazi Hunter". The only man with this denomination that I heard
    of in Austria was/is Simon Wiesenthal (BTW, his books are top quality).
    
    I'm well aware that there are others working in this field. Who did
    Friedman HUNT and CATCH? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Chris