Conference taveng::bagels

re .0
    
>    The couple  is presently in Italy, and are prevented from entering 
> the USA by immigration laws which do not allow anyone who has been 
> a member of the Communist Party to enter this country [unless they 
> were forced to join].
     
    Somehow I find it doubtful that Viktor is not allowed to enter this
    country only because of his apolitical and temporary membership in the
    KPCC (CP of SU). Are you telling me that there aren't any former
    KPCC members among the 250,000 former Soviet citizens who now reside
    in this country?
    
    If I am wrong, convince me.
    
    Alex

>    Somehow I find it doubtful that Viktor is not allowed to enter this
>    country only because of his apolitical and temporary membership in the
>    KPCC (CP of SU). Are you telling me that there aren't any former
>    KPCC members among the 250,000 former Soviet citizens who now reside
>    in this country?

    Alex,

    I would be inclined to believe that there are indeed former party
    members living in the US.  However, I would also be inclined to
    believe that they are here either because they lied about having
    been party members, lied about joining voluntarily or received
    waivers of the sort that has been requested in this case.  This
    sort of nonsense goes on all the time when dealing with the INS.

    Gavriel

    re: .2, Gavriel, and .1, Alex
    
    >I would be inclined to believe that there are indeed former party
    >members living in the US.  However, I would also be inclined to
    >believe that they are here either because they lied about having
    >been party members, lied about joining voluntarily or received
    >waivers of the sort that has been requested in this case.
    
    Gavriel, I think you've probably summarized it very well.
     
    Alex, to answer your question, I don't know Viktor at all. [When
    somebody needs help, I take things at face value, roll up my
    sleeves, and try to help. ;-) 
    
    However, Viktor also finds in difficult to understand how all those 
    former party members got admitted to the US.
    
    He says in his letter of May 27th, "Yesterday, HIAS people invited
    me to their office in Rome and showed me a paragraph from the US
    Immigration law which reads that '...former communist party members
    are not allowed to immigrate to the US unless they can provide
    evidence that they joined the party against their will...' I was
    shocked to read this because I was a member of the CPSU in 1968-1972.
    I joined the party because it was an official condition of my
    promotion as a translator and interpreter. I did this voluntarily,
    like every other former CPSU member now coming to the USA from the
    USSR. I don't know how all of them manage to overcome that law...but
    I cannot lie that I would have been killed by the Soviet authorities...
    Like all the others, by joining the CPSU I was making a career..."
    
    He states, further, "The US immigration law exists to defend your
    country from subversive elements (any true communist is indeed such
    a danger), terrorists and anarchists. By no means I'm of the kind.
    On the contrary, I'm an example of how much ordinary people in the
    Communist world lose of their personal dignity..."
    
    After becoming a refusenik, Viktor suffered much the same kind of
    persecution that they all do...detention by the KGB, repeated
    apprehensions and searches, violence, harassment, etc.
    
    I guess what I can't understand is why there is such a stipulation
    in the law if the Communist party is legal in the US. [It still is, 
    isn't it? Or am I showing my ignorance [again ;-)] ?
    
    Irena
    
    

    There was an article in the newspaper about a physician who came
    to the U.S. as an exchange student (J1 visa).  She fell in love
    with and married another physician who is a U.S. citizen.  The
    INS ruled that she must leave the U.S. and return to her native
    country for two years before she can apply to be allowed to live
    in the U.S. with her husband.  If she had entered the U.S. on
    any other visa, for example as a tourist, and married a U.S.
    citizen, she would have been allowed to stay here with her husband.
    
    Ironically, millions who crossed the border from Mexico in total
    defiance of U.S. laws are being granted amnesty.  In fact, the
    more illegal they were and the longer the time they were illegally
    here the greater the ease with which they get amnesty.

    

    The loophole in the immigration law was that a former members of 
    KPCC (CPSU) stated that the membership was the only way he/she can 
    continue the present job.  In most cases this is true.  Of course
    there is a lot of room for interpretations, e.g. if one does not
    join the Party he is not fired but will not be promoted -- is it
    a basis to claim "unwilling" membership?
    
    

    re: .0-.3
    
    I do not mean to be super-critical (and I am not sure if our discussion
    belongs in this conference), however:
    
    1. Only 15% of Soviet citizens belong to CPSU (85% choose not to!).
    2. Indeed, most of those who join, are making a cynical career move.
    3. Others join because they believe in communism.
    
    Disregarding INS bureaucracy (which could be the real reason), I am 
    asking the following simple questions:
    
    a. If V. made a career move when he joined CPSU, is he making another
       career move now? Or is he a true refugee who hungers for freedom?
       (career move is not a sufficient reason to move to this country)
    b. If V. made such a cynical career move that 85% percent of the
       Soviet citizens do not make, no matter how brainwashed they are,
       what is going to be his next "career move"?
    
    I know, we do not know all the answers, and it would be good if an
    honest person could be helped. It could be that V. is a nice guy, who
    made a big mistake, I am just not ready to blame it all on the
    bureaucracy. 
    
    Alex

    < Note 481.6 by LINK02::ALLISTER "Alex DTN 223-3154 MLO21-3/E87" >
        
      Alex,
     
        >Only 15% of Soviet citizens belong to CPSU (85% choose not to!).
           
      I don't know where you get these percentages...
    
       >If V. made a career move when he joined CPSU, is he making another
       >career move now? Or is he a true refugee who hungers for freedom?
       
       >If V. made such a cynical career move that 85% percent of the
       >Soviet citizens do not make, no matter how brainwashed they are,
       >what is going to be his next "career move"?
        
        Again, I question the accuracy of your quoted percentage. Also,
        I don't know that 'brainwashing' has much to do with it if
        you want an education, a job, shelter and food. For those who
        never expect to get out, it's a trade-off. Survival, or even
        the hope of a 'better' life, wins. We know that the USSR is
        not a 'classless' society.
         
        I would think 16 years as an admitted refusenik speaks clearly
        as to his heart and his intentions.
    
       >I am just not ready to blame it all on the bureaucracy.        
                                                   
        I didn't come here looking to blame anyone or anything. Blame
        is a waste of precious energy that can be better directed in 
        positive channels.
    
        I also don't wish to belabor this topic for several
        reasons, just as for obvious reasons I did not include
        details, addresses and phone numbers in this public
        forum. Those who have questions and/or are interested in 
        doing something positive for these people can contact me 
        offline for how to reach them.
    
        The base note merely requests that any one who would like to write
        their Senators, please do so.  
    
        If you don't want to do so, no need to find reasons or
        make excuses. It's an individual matter of choice.         
                      
        Irena
                   

>        I would think 16 years as an admitted refusenik speaks clearly
>        as to his heart and his intentions.


    It's sad that there are so may refuseniks that choose not
    to go and try out Israel, when that is where they were
    refused, and eventually given permission, to go. 
    
    Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I get the impression
    that more effort seems to go in helping refuseniks reach the States
    than in helping them acheive their original goal.
    
    Malcolm
       

    Malc, 
    
    >It's sad that there are so may refuseniks that choose not
    >to go and try out Israel, when that is where they were
    >refused, and eventually given permission, to go. 
     
     Can you tell me why it is more desirable for a refusenik
     to live in Israel than it is for, say, you?
    
     If you were living in Israel, and you told me this family
     should move to Israel and not the US, I would be inclined
     to take your recommendation more seriously.
     
     Perhaps they want to be reunited and live with their family
     in the US just as you like to live with your family in the UK.
    
     Is one wrong, the other right?
        
     Love,
     Irena

    
    >Can you tell me why it is more desirable for a refusenik
    >to live in Israel than, say, you?
    
    Yes.  Until such time (hopefully in our lifetime!) as the Soviet
    government sees fit to institute a policy which will allow *any*
    Soviet citizen to leave if he/she wants to, refuseniks are being
    let out *only on the condition* that they proceed to Israel.  There
    is no way for the Soviet Union to enforce this policy.  But the
    vast numbers of people pleading to be let out and allowed to
    go to Israel, and then heading straight for the States, are
    jeopardizing other refuseniks' --some of who *do* sincerely want
    to live in Israel-- opportunities of release.  Even if they are
    jeopardizing it only to the extent of giving the Soviets a set of
    dubious statistics behind which to hide, they *are* jeopardizing
    it. 

    Thanks Fern for saying what I was thinking.
    
    Malcolm

    Irena,
    
    I understand that you were trying to help somebody who is in trouble.
    However you posted .0 assuming the information you were given is
    factual, and without half truths. Others may be lead to take the
    statements as unquestionable truth. This is why I posted my note.
    
    I already see a statement that IS questionable. The original letter says:
    
    	"Victor had at one time been a member. However, in 1972 he resigned
	 from his job, quit the Communist party, and applied for his exit visa
    	 to the US."
                ~~ 
    As was pointed out in some replies, the vast majority (if not all) of
    Jewish refuseniks apply for exit visas to Israel, NOT US. As a matter
    of fact, the only reason that USSR accepts as a condition for such an
    application is the desire of a Jewish individual to "re-unite with his 
    family in his HISTORIC MOTHERLAND".
    
    Also, I do stand by my number of 15% CPSU members in the USSR.
    Prove me wrong.
    
    You are right, I am going to exercise my right not to call my Senator. 
    But I also choose to present some facts so that others can make
    a decision for themselves.
    
    Alex

    The last note is correct.  To get an exit visa you have to say you
    are going to Israel no matter where you really want to go and why.
    
    There is a current debate about this in the American Jewish community
    as well as I am sure elsewhere.  It rubs me wrong to say to anyone
    that they HAVE to go anywhere.  Especially when that person is sitting
    the US.  I am not against making it more attractive for a person/family
    to immegrate to Israel (better job training, housing, assitance)
    and making it harder more red tape to go the US.   But to force someone
    to go to Israel seems a denial of basic freedoms that we accuse
    the Soviets of refusing to grant to their citizens.
    
    WS

    As a quasi-irrelevant comment, according to an article about
    immigration to/emigration from Israel that was in the NY Times very
    recently, over 90% of Jews leaving the USSR go to the U.S.  Of
    Americans who immigrate to Israel, most political "moderates" return
    to the U.S. within a few years;  the Americans who remain tend to
    be Kahane supporters.  Just thinking about Israel after a couple
    of decades of this if it continues leads me to want to put a cold
    facecloth on my face and take a few aspirin.
    
    It was not clear from the article how much of this situation was
    due to standard of living differences vs. the current political
    climate.                                         
    

    re: .13
    
    In answer to your reply I will quote Simcha Dinitz who stated that
    "an Israeli visa is not a transit visa".  I won't stick with this
    topic for long because I know it is sticky subject matter, and I
    have personal reasons for not wanting to discuss it in public.
    
    David 

    re: .14
    
    Karen, until you take the time to interrupt your total blinding
    rapture with the Arab world and begin to try to understand the 
    Jewish people, Judaism, and Israel (from a different perspective)
    than I feel that your opinion on immigration/emigration to/from
    Israel is irrelevant.
    
    No, most American Jews do not return to the U.S. in "disgust" over
    the political situation, there are more complicating factors that
    are involved which you couldn't fathom right now.  And it is a total
    falsehood for you to state that only the Kahanists are left in Israel.
    Soviet Jews have headed straight for the U.S. purely out of economic
    desires and lack of information on Israel.    
                                                  
    I think you were just trying to vaguely disguise your true opinion
    that a Jew has no right to immigrate to Israel.  Cut out the
    you-know-what and talk straight for a change. You're entitled to
    your opinion, but if you're going to continue harassing us in this 
    notesfile than stop trying to disguise your true feelings.
    
    David       
                                                  
                                                  
                                                  
                                                  

    Re: .16
    
    I think you are totally misunderstanding what I am saying.
    
    I did not state that "only Kahanists are left in Israel".  What
    I stated (perhaps not clearly enough) was what the article said.
    I did not save it and so cannot quote it directly, but basically
    it was that, in general, the moderates from America returned to
    the U.S. while the extreme right-wing people from America remained.
    One of the Israeli officials involved in encouraging immigration
    was quoted as saying something such as, we are getting so few people
    and the type of people, who wants them....  (I think it didn't
    attempt to classify the people from Russia according to their political
    views.)  It doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to see the
    projected result of this if it continues, particularly when taken
    with the reported shift to the right of Israeli public opinion in general.
    
    No where in my mind was the idea "a Jew has no right to immigrate
    to Israel" when I was writing that reply.  Now that you have brought
    it to my attention, I do, of course, think it is unjust that anyone
    who is Jewish can freely go there while Palestinians cannot,
    but the solution to that (if you are thinking in terms of a one
    state solution) is to allow Palestinians in also, not prevent Jews
    from entering.
    
                                            

>    I did not save it and so cannot quote it directly, but basically
>    it was that, in general, the moderates from America returned to
>    the U.S. while the extreme right-wing people from America remained.

   This is misinformation and simply not true.  My source?  
   First hand observance of reality.

   As to Russian Jews and their heading for the US;  I'm not sure 
   that it's totally a case of lack of information on their part.
   Life in general is close to an order of magnitude easier to 
   deal with in the U.S. than it is in Israel.  You have to be 
   wanting to live in Israel to make a decent go at it.  It's not 
   enough if your motivation is trying to get away from someplace 
   else, which I think holds true for the majority of Russian 
   emigrants.

    re .7                                             
    
    I don't mean to re-start the argument, just to provide more precise data.
    
    I double-checked my figures, and it turns out that less than 9% (!!!)
    of Soviet citizens join CSPU. The process of joining is not an easy
    one, since the Party wants to insure that only the "politically pure"
    elements join the membership.

    
    For those who are interested, here's an update on this family.
    
    It was always their intention to make their permanent home
    in Israel. They have been reunited with relatives here in the US, 
    and after a time of visiting, rest and recovery, they will be 
    leaving for Israel.                    
                  
    Irena