Conference taveng::bagels

reply to: < Note 473.0 by IOSG::VICKERS "Entropy isn't what it used to be" >
    
>    Hi there,
>    can anyone recommend to me a good Hebrew Bible ? Straight Hebrew
>    text or inerlinear, I don't mind. It's just that I've taken up Hebrew
>    and would like to get the Scriptures in Hebrew.

	You'll pardon me, but while I know that you really are serious
	in your request, the way you've phrased it is a little amusing.
	_All_ Hebrew Bibles are "good".  Also, they're all the _same_ (in
	Hebrew), since that's the language Tanach was written in (or
	Aramaic, for some of the Nevi'im).

	I think, perhaps, you mean that "good" or "bad" here relating
	to the quality of the translation into English.  No?

	Let me ramble for a line or two:  it is simply not possible to 
	understand the Tanach just by translating the Hebrew -- for
	a wide variety of excellent reasons [which I just don't have
	the time to type in this week -- on my way to San Francisco this
	PM], which I'd be willing to discuss at length at a later time.
	Fluency in Modern or Ancient Hebrew is a kind of "necessary
	but not sufficient" condition for understanding.

	Be that as it may, please accept that you will have to use
	a variety of translations to get any real sense of it. I'd recommend
	that you get several Tanachim, and use them all, if you're
	serious.  It will take you significant time and effort, but
	there's no instant coffee here!

	You might start with the new JPS Tanach (Jewish Publication
	Society; get the new one, from the last few years -- not the
	one from the early 1900's).  An excellent, relatively new, one 
	is Aryeh Kaplan's _The Living Torah_ (but it's just the Torah, 
	not all of Tanach). A classic is "The Torah and Haftorahs with
	Commentary" of Samson Rafael Hirsch. There are two versions of
	this. There's the "old" version in six volumes; the English is
	a difficult translation of the original German commentary. Or, you
	could get the "new" one-volume version, which is much easier to read,
	but lacks, of course, a lot of the detail.
	
	That'll get you going.  They're all available at the Israel
	Book Shop in Brookline.

/don feinberg

    re:-1
    
    Don, I think that the Israel Book Shop would be kind of a long walk
    for Paul, if I'm correct his node, IOSG, is located in Reading.
    
    David

    
    Hi Don,
    thanks for the pointers. Actually, I did mean a Tanakh in the original
    Hebrew not a translation. And of course you're correct, they are
    *all* good :-)
    I take on board your point about not being able to understand it
    just by learning the language, but for the moment all I want is
    a nice big pool of Biblical Hebrew to immerse myself in. What
    better source than the Bible itself ?
    
    So, does anyone know of a Hebrew language version that is currently
    published ?
    
    Thanks again,

    Paul V

    Paul,

    The versions mentioned are English and Hebrew on facing pages.
    When there is commentary of the type Don mentioned it is usually
    at the bottoms of the pages.  This enables quick referencing of
    the translation when you get stuck and quick referencing of the
    commentary for further undertanding.  The reason that several
    versions are recommended is that they will contain different
    commentary and slight variations in translation.

    Gavriel

I believe that the JPS Tanach is all in English.

Also, I would suspect that, to read the Torah in the original language
-- and with understanding of the original intent -- would require
more than reading knowledge of Hebrew.  I don't mean this as an insult
to Paul (and am probably taking Paul's request further than he intends)
but rather an observation that lawyers go to post-graduate school for several
years to learn the exact meanings of a small number of English sentences.

The translators of the JPS Tanach note in a number of places that the
meaning of original Hebrew is unclear or uncertain.

Martin.

    If you are not concerned with the translation, then the main consideration
    is readability.  Unfortunately, most one-volume versions with which
    I am familiar tend to rather small type, and some of them are not very
    clear.  The last time I looked, they were ~$10-$30 depending on size,
    format, etc.  The "best" is probably Biblica Hebraica, but that runs
    closer to $50-$60.  The type is clear, and it has lots of notes on mss
    variations (explained in German), but most of these would mean nothing
    to someone just starting; it is really designed for scholars.

    Actually, what you want is not the "original" but a vowelled and punctuated
    Hebrew.  The closest thing to an original version is the handwritten
    scrolls used in synagogues, which have no vowelling or punctuation
    (although there are some spaces in parts of the text that indicate
    paragraphs and lists).  I mention this because although
    
    a) it would be virtually impossible for a beginner to make sense of an
    unvowelled text,
    
    b) you should be aware that the vowelling and punctuation is relatively
    late and represents a certain tradition of what the words meant to the
    scholars who added them.
    
    [Before anyone flames, I am not asserting that the tradition is wrong,
    only that other vowelling (=meaning) is possible in many cases.]
    
    The best thing would be if you could get in to a bookstore.  The Israel
    Bookstore in Brookline (closed Saturday, open Sunday) has them, and
    I think you might be able to get one in the Thomas More Bookstore in
    Cambridge (open Saturday, closed Sunday) or in Schoenhof's Foreign
    Bookstore (also Cambridge).  If you can't, and are willing to trust
    my judgment, I can get one for you, since I live in Brookline.
    (Send email.)

    					Aaron

    If you are interested in the Hebrew only then take a look at some
    of the Koran (not to be confused with the Arabic) Publishing House
    editions. They all have basically the same format (very accurate)
    but come in many different sizes and bindings.
    
    If you want both Hebrew and English then take a look at either the
    Soncino Press editions (complete Tanach) or the Hertz edition
    (Pentatuch only).
    
    One of my colleagues has suggested trying the United Synagouge Bookshop
    near Euston train station or many of the sundry bookstores in the
    Golders Green area.
    
    Happy reading,
    
    Cb.

    
RE:    < Note 473.7 by TAVENG::CHAIM "The Bagel Nosher" >
                    -< Try Koran (not Arabic) editions... >- 
   
    
>>                                         the United Synagogue Bookshop
>>    near Euston train station or many of the sundry bookstores in the
>>    Golders Green area.                 
    
    United Synagogue Bookshop is located in Woburn House near Euston
    Station.
    
    There are quite a lot of bookshops in the Golders Green/Hendon/Temple
    Fortune area (in London) which sell Hebrew Bibles etc ... There
    names escape me at present but I could try to find out. Better still
    look up the Yellow Pages for the North West London area.
    
    As a last resort try either Foyles (they have EVERYTHING ... well
    nearly everything), Doyles near University College or the University
    of London bookshop.
    
    Enjoy,
    						..... Monty
    

    
    Thanks guys, you've all been very helpful. I shall digest all this
    info and mull it over.
    Actually, my family shall be moving up to Newcastle (England) later
    this month. I understand that Newcastle has a (very) big Jewish
    community so I reckon there would more than likely be a good number
    of Jewish bookshops in the area.
    
    Thanks again,
    Paul V, a humble goy who's fascinated by the Hebrew language.

    
    RE: -1
    
>>            I understand that Newcastle has a (very) big Jewish
>>  community so I reckon there would more than likely be a good number
>>  of Jewish bookshops in the area.

    THE bookshop that is worth trying is J. Lehman 20 Cambridge Ter.
    in Gateshead.  (Note the singular)
    
    There exists a large, very Orthodox community in Gateshead, across
    the river from Newscastle. It is mainly centered around the Yeshiva,
    Institute for Higher Rabbinical Studies.
    
    If you have the time, I would recommend going into London and browsing
    through the bookshops there.
    
    						..... Monty
                                      

    
    Thanks Monty, I shall be in Gateshead at the end of the month anyway
    visiting my Granddad so maybe I'll pop in. Thanks. If I get the
    chance I'll have a look round Golders Green too.
    
    Aaron and Don, if you want to pay my air fair to Brookline then
    I'd be delighted to peruse the purveyors of printed literature that
    you mentioned! You could introduce me to some of those famous kosher
    delis too... :-)
    
    Thanks again for all your help,
    Paul V

    Just another reccomendation for using the Koran verison (publishers
    not Moslem bible). Its accurate, and the type script is very readable.
    

....allow me to make a brief interruption:

An easy way to distinguish between the Islamic holy book and
the Hebrew bible publisher is to note that the former is spelled
		Koran
and the latter is spelled
		Koren.

RE: 473.11  "Aaron and Don, if you want to pay my air fair to Brookline..."

      Well, I was sort of hoping you'd send me a ticket so I could deliver
      it personally :^)

      [ And next time I'll check the node _before_ I answer the note...]

					Aaron

      p.s. The Koren typeface IS clear and, as far as I can tell, accurate,
           but all the editions of the Tanach that I have seen seem to be
           printed in 6 pt. type.

      p.s. The Koren typeface IS clear and, as far as I can tell, accurate,
           but all the editions of the Tanach that I have seen seem to be
           printed in 6 pt. type.

I believe an early edition was chiseled into stone.

    re: -1
    
    Their fonts better comply with the corporate image program (:-).
    
    David 

    As the base-noter did so many years ago, I recently bought a Tanakh to
    help me in my study of biblical Hebrew (vs conversational ) in
    Hebrew and English.
    
    I chose  the Jerusalem [sic] edition from KEREN publishers.
    I bought this from the Israel Bookstore in Brookline for about $30.
    This supplements a Hirsh Chumash, A JPS Tanakh (English only) and
    another older English Tanakh that I got when I was confirmed.
    
    It seemed like a good compromise in price, readability, and layout.
    However it does not explain a few things, so I thought I would turn to 
    you folks for help.
    
    I. MARGIN WORDS. 
    Some of the words in the text are unpointed. In the margin there is a
    pointed word or word spelled slightly differently and pointed (yud to
    vuv or vice versa, etc.). I assume there is some question about the
    pronunciation of these words and the margin entry is the "authorized"
    version. Is this correct? Who is the authority? Is this common in other
    published versions of Tanakh?
    
    II. Trop, Niguyot, Ta'amim. That is the "notes" accents printed in
    addition to the vowel points. - 
    I didn't realize that the entire Tanakh had trop. I thought just the
    torah, Neviim used for Haftorah, and the magilot read on special
    occasions (Ester, Shir-haShirim, ...) had notes! How would I find out
    what cantellation (song fragments) to use for which section?
    
    IIa. Also checking my references - these notes are important to
    interpretation of the words as well, how do I find out more about this.
    I did know that Sof Posuk means the end of a "sentance" and etnachta is 
    a "comma" but is there a special meaning for mahpach? or revi'i?
    
    IIb. Also again in my references, they point out that Psalms, Job and one
    other book have a different note system. I looked and found "extra"
    notes. Do these have a common cantelation?
    
    III. ARAMAIC. Last, I thought that Daniel and a few other books were
    written in Aramaic. I looked at Daniel and it sure looked like Hebrew
    to me. Do some Tanakhim have a translation to Hebrew?
    
    Thanks in advance for your help,
    
    Neil  

>    I. MARGIN WORDS. 
>    Some of the words in the text are unpointed. In the margin there is a
>    pointed word or word spelled slightly differently and pointed (yud to
>    vuv or vice versa, etc.). I assume there is some question about the
>    pronunciation of these words and the margin entry is the "authorized"
>    version. Is this correct? Who is the authority? Is this common in other
>    published versions of Tanakh?

In the Gemara (Talmud) you also find these margin words, but there they are
usually given with the association of whomever thought that his version was so.
The addition (or changing) of words in the Talmud is usually acompanied by
a different version of the flow of the discussion. In the Tanach, usually the
"margin word" denotes the way the word is read and it seems to be treated as 
"the" correct way and not as a side version. (But I may be wrong on this one)
    
>    II. Trop, Niguyot, Ta'amim. That is the "notes" accents printed in
>    addition to the vowel points. - 
>    I didn't realize that the entire Tanakh had trop. I thought just the
>    torah, Neviim used for Haftorah, and the magilot read on special
>    occasions (Ester, Shir-haShirim, ...) had notes! How would I find out
>    what cantellation (song fragments) to use for which section?

There is a basic version of "song fragments" used for each "Taam" represented by
a "note" in each word. This basic version tends to diverge into subversions for
reading Haftorah, the Megillot, Megilat Eicha. There are even some subsubversions
which are meant for very specific parts of the reading such as the ten commandments
which are read in a special version called "Taam Elyon" I believe.
    
>    IIa. Also checking my references - these notes are important to
>    interpretation of the words as well, how do I find out more about this.
>    I did know that Sof Posuk means the end of a "sentance" and etnachta is 
>    a "comma" but is there a special meaning for mahpach? or revi'i?
>    IIb. Also again in my references, they point out that Psalms, Job and one
>    other book have a different note system. I looked and found "extra"
>    notes. Do these have a common cantelation?

Somebody else should answer these.
    
>    III. ARAMAIC. Last, I thought that Daniel and a few other books were
>    written in Aramaic. I looked at Daniel and it sure looked like Hebrew
>    to me. Do some Tanakhim have a translation to Hebrew?

Certain parts of certain books are written in Aramaic. While a hebrew translation
exists, it isn't considered the original. One might even argue that is on the same
level as an English translation.

As an aside, certain "Edot" like the Yemenites read the Torah and Haftarah verse
by verse, interleaving "original" verses with a verse of "Targum" which is
hebrew for Translation. This seems to date back to a time when most Jews didn't
know hebrew.
    
>    Thanks in advance for your help,
>    
>    Neil  

	Hope this helps

		Yaacov

If your Koren Tenakh is like the Chumash I found here at work, there should be
a section entitled "In What Does the Koren Tenakh Differ from All the Others?"
This explains their convention of putting the qeri in the margin and leaving
the ketiv in the body of the text.  As to where we get the qeri, I'll have to
leave that to someone more knowledgable.

I'm not sure why you think Daniel is in Hebrew rather than Aramaic, largely
because I don't know what your level of knowledge of Hebrew is.  They're
written with the same characters, but the vocabulary and grammar are
somewhat different.  The difference is very roughly similar to the
difference between English and German.

It may be heresy, but I'll say it. The unpointed words are what is actually
found in a kosher Torah scroll. These seem to be mistakes that crept into the
text. The pointed words in the margin are the "correct" words to pronounce.
However, since the Torah text is holy it would be unthinkable to make any
corrections there.

I didn't know etnachta means "comma". Can someone verify this?

I always thought the trop was put together to sound nice. The phrases of
the melody accentuate the phrases of the prose. It also acts a mnemonic
aid; I find it easier to memorize text and trope together than text alone.
Significant words (such as G-d's name) get fancier (more ornamental) trope
than simple narrative.

Dave

    
    
    Thanks for all the feedback so far. Can anyone suggest a good reference
    on the cantellation and interpretation of trop? 
    
    Clarification:
    
    The text that I'm studying now is "Biblical Hebrew - Text and WorkbooK"
    by Kittel,Hoffer, and Wright of Yale University. Publ. Yale University
    Press ISBN: 0-300-04394-5.
    
    The text is quite good and I can now read about 50% of the Tanach
    without referring to the English. One of the nice features of the book
    is a summary of the 500 or so most commonly used words in the Tanach in
    both frequency and alphabetical order. 
    
    I. Re - Qeri vs Ketiv (spoken vs written): I did find that little section
    in the Keren book and they emphasise that "Their" way of putting the 
    Qeri (spoken) pointing and spelling of words in the margin and leaving
    the Ketiv (traditional written) form un-pointed in the text is the
    "best" way.
    
    For those not familiar with these differences, two of the most common
    are spelling hey:vuv:aleph (the pronoun for he or him) when it should
    be the pronoun for she (hey:yud:aleph); and leaving the last yud out of
    Jerusalem. Before I got this tanach I had seen the these words pointed
    in the text(eg Hirch Chumash). That is hey:vuv:aleph with a Chirik
    ("e"-dot) under the vuv. I have to admit the Keren way is better.
    
    
    II. Trop Accents as hints to understanding. The text I'm reading confirms
    that etnachta is "used to separate phrases". (for some reason the
    author calls this mark "atnacht") - beyond that one reference, the
    author in this book says very little.
    
    III. Daniel in Aramaic. I was in a hurry. The "beginning" of Daniel is in
    Hebrew, but later it switches to Aramaic. Since I can read the Hebrew
    but not the Aramaic, I can tell where the switch is. Also there are
    key things to watch for such as the plural endings in nun and yud
    instead of mem and the use of an Aleph at the end of a word instead of
    a hey at the beginning of a word for "the". Another hint I watch for is
    the word dalet:yud instead of asher for the conjunction "that".
    
    Neil

Trop is a way of puntuating a sentence. There are 2 classes of trop,
mafsikim (stoppers) and mechabrim (connectors).

The mafsikim are hierarchical.

Sof Pasuk (Siluk) and Etnachta are called Keisarim (emperors).
zakef katon, tipcha, zarka are called Melachim (kings)
pashta, y'teev, re'viah, t'veer, segol, gershaiim(?) are Shneiim (seconds)
Azla, tlisha-gedola, pazer, gershaim(? - pretty sure it belings above) are
called Shleshim (thirds).

I may have missed one or two - doing by memory here.

In theory one can look at a verse and put in the trop - not easy to do but
I have seen it done and when I was in-practice many years ago could often
do it myself.

yf