Conference taveng::bagels

>>    I made pizza the other night from scratch.  It occured to me (and I
>>    could not find it in my sources) that I did not know whether pizza
>>   and the dough for the crust should be treated as a bread or a cake.

	Most sources have two (and a half) tests:  

		1) The weight of what you consume, i. e., in a 12 or
		   14 inch pizza, two pieces are "mezonot" and three
		   or more are "hamotzi".  (This is also supported
		   by the idea of making "hamotzi" when you're going
		   to be eating a full meal in which you will satisfy your
		   hunger, i. e., "hamotzi", eat, then full birkat
		   hamazon.

		2) Some people make pizza dough with apple juice instead
		   of water; there's a psak that this renders the product
		   mezonot.  Our Rav doesn't hold by this psak.

		2.5) One of the distinctions is whether something looks
		     like bread, i. e., something which is clearly
		     a chocolate layer cake can never be "hamotzi"
		     by itself. "Bread", in general, has to look like bread
		     before it's "hamotzi".

		     Pizza could be argued, but the "normal" psak we
		     use is 1), above.

>>    The dough itself is pareve but it is covered with cheese before cooking.

		So?

>>    So, which blessing do you say and do you take challah?

		As above.  As a meal, say "hamotzi".  As a snack, or
		so called "occasional food", say "mezonot" and
		bracha acharona.

		Taking challah is based on weight of the dough.  I think that
		the lower limit is around four five pounds of dough (but I
		could look it up). This means, for small baking --
		a pizza or two, a couple of breads -- no challah is
		taken.  For many loaves (by weight), then challah is
		taken.

/don feinberg

>>>    The dough itself is pareve but it is covered with cheese before cooking.
>
>		So?

    I remember having read, that if it is dairy then it is not bread.  I
    thought that this might have some bearing.  I don't remember the
    source, but it was not a book that I own.

    Gavriel

>>    I remember having read, that if it is dairy then it is not bread. 

	It's perfrectly possible to bake bread using butter (=dairy) as
	an ingredient.  It's still bread and still "hamotzi".

/don feinberg

>	It's perfrectly possible to bake bread using butter (=dairy) as
>	an ingredient.  It's still bread and still "hamotzi".

    Then what makes the difference between being cake and being bread?

    Gavriel

>	It's perfrectly possible to bake bread using butter (=dairy) as
>	an ingredient.  It's still bread and still "hamotzi".

No, I do not think so.  Bread is something that one must be able to 
eat with any meal, and as such, must be pareve.  I believe that this
is covered fairly well in the discussion about Kupel's bakery and
Freedman's certification by the Vaad Haabronim.

Chuck

    This may be a "dumb question", but here it is, anyhow: how does
    an individual person (not a bakery, I mean) with an ordinary home
    gas oven take challah, anyhow??  Don't you end up with a really
    nasty mess to clean up on the bottom of the oven?
    
    I never bake FIVE POUNDS of bread - it would take weeks and weeks
    for the two of us to eat that much bread, since we usually do not
    eat bread at all except on Shabbos (I bake the challot on Thursday
    nights, since of course I am not home that early on Fridays even
    in the summer) - so this is probably also an academic question,
    anyhow.
    
    I usually bake dairy challah, too - makes better French toast! Also,
    it tastes better - I can't eat corn, which restricts what kind of
    margarine (that tastes tolerable - e.g., pesachdic margarine is
    dreadful tasting, but isn't corn) I can use if I am going to eat
    the finished product.   

reply to: < Note 427.6 by BEOWLF::STERN >
>                        -< See the Kupel's discussion >-
>
>
>>	It's perfrectly possible to bake bread using butter (=dairy) as
>>	an ingredient.  It's still bread and still "hamotzi".
>
>No, I do not think so.  Bread is something that one must be able to 
>eat with any meal, and as such, must be pareve.  I believe that this
>is covered fairly well in the discussion about Kupel's bakery and
>Freedman's certification by the Vaad Haabronim.

	Sorry, but there is no requirement that bread be pareve.
	Bread _can_ be milchig (and it still requires hamotzi).

	(I don't remember the discussion re: Kupel's  and Freedman's,
	but I do know that all the Va'ad  certifies is the kashrut of the
	ingredients.  I'd assume that because they bake other milchigs that
	those who will buy from Kupel and Freedman should consider their
	bread products milchig.)

	To be sure, there IS a general minhag that we eat only pareve bread.
	The reason for this is only because of the difficulty of
	labelling and the resulting likely confusion and mistakes. This is
	not a halacha, for sure. (Of course, it's always a convenience to
	know that all the bread is pareve!)

	(BTW, I checked the sources on this tonight, to make sure.)

/don feinberg

    There is apparently lots of confusion among most people concerning
    the laws which pertain to Ha'motze vis-a-vis "bread" and "mizonot".
    
    There is also some confusion regarding what is "bread". I recall
    learning this particular subject while learning the section of Pesachim
    which deals with Matzah (some 20 years ago). I recall that we covered
    most of the commentaries on this subject in many different places
    and acording to some even spaghetti noodles could be considered
    "bread", though we don't hold this view. Rabbi Soloveitchik did
    state that the relevant areas of concern are contents, consistency,
    mode of cooking/baking, final form. His contention was that any
    object that contains a considerable amount of flour and whose
    consistency before being baked is solid and which is baked and has
    the appearance of what we normally consider "bread" is indeed "bread".
    He differs quite strongly with those who put some fruit juice in
    the dough and call it "mizonot bread". He maintains that this is
    100% "bread". I recall that he was uncertain regarding bagels if
    these are cooked in water before being baked.
    
    With regard to Hamotzi, "bread" by definition requires washing and
    Hamotzi, "mizonot" in large quantities especially when one is planning
    to base a meal around them also require washing and Hamotzi.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cb.
    
    
    

Re .8

Thanks, Don.  I was not *really* sure, but I know some people
are still bitching that Kupels has a hescher.  Live and learn.

Chuck    
    
    

>	Live and learn.

		Indeed.

		Well, as seems to be usual, this exchange has caused me
		to look at the texts a little.  Of course, every time
		I do that, I find great complexifications!  :-)  :-)
		In this case, I read up on "taking challah".

		Anyway, I found that I have a practical, 4-page guide to
		the halachot of "taking challah", and also the
		practice of it.  (It IS in English!)

		I will make a limited number of xerox copies for those
		who would be interested.  Please send me mail on
		CURIE:: -- please don't reply here.

		If I get a chance, I will try to summarize some of it
		here.

/don feinberg

    I believe that the blessing for sausage pizza is "Ave Maria."
    

re .-1

>    I believe that the blessing for sausage pizza is "Ave Maria."
    
But Wait!  What about ...
			...
			  ...
				TOFU CHEESE?

Really, has anybody tried this stuff?  I !believe! I've seen it at
Bread and Circus with a hechsher, and pareve.  The texture looks
close enough to mozarella.  We might be approaching the day of
kosher sausage pizza! 

    Tell you waht, Kathy - YOU try the "tofu cheese", and let us all
    know if it is edible!   Anyhow, someone will probably declare that
    even if it is good enough to eat, you shouldn't eat it with meat
    anyhow because people might think it really is cheese, like people
    who believe they shouldn't use a non-dairy coffee creamer with a
    meat meal because someone might think they put cream in the coffee
    - of course most nondairy creamers wouldn't fool anyone who tasted
    them, but they LOOK like cream.  I hope the tofu cheese tastes more
    like cheese than tofu ice cream tastes like ice cream - that stuff
    is really only palatable in strong flavors; otherwise it tastes
    like aged tofu, which is pretty bad (fresh tofu is fine; it doesn't
    have much taste - old tofu tastes like soy beans, which isn't really
    too surprising).

    I cannot eat real cheese, so I make pizza with the synthetic stuff.
    It tastes sort of like the real thing (bland and gooey), so it's
    sometimes better than nothing.  (A good lamejune will also do.)
    
    Some brands of parvine are okay; I find Tofutti (regular) to be
    pretty good, Tofutti (litelite) to be poor, and Baracini's Tofulite
    to be mediocre at best.  In some, there's more "tofu" on the label
    than inside it.  Ice Bean is seriously heavy on soy and tastes it,
    but it isn't sugary either.  For drinking, Vitasoy coconut-maple
    and Edensoy Vanilla are both very good soymilks.  (If they tasted
    like real milk did to me, I'd retch.  Alas, a few soymilks do.)
    
    Given the frequency of lactose intolerance among our people, I'm
    surprised so many Jewish events are milchig.
          fred

    I've used plain tofu before to make fleischig lasagna.  My mother
    told me the technique:  Mash up the tofu, add a little olive oil,
    garlic powder and herbs.  The appearance when baked is much like
    ricotta cheese, although the taste is different.
    
    Dave

    (Hi, Fred!  You are *much* more lactose-intolerant than I am.)
    If you really like soy milk, the Chinese kind is MUCH better than
    the health-food store kind, which often tastes kind of powdery and
    heavy on the bean flavor.  You can buy the Chinese kind bottled
    in Chinese grocery stores, or, if you are concerned that it is not
    marked kosher to your standards, it is pretty easy to make if you
    have a blender or food processor (that you keep pareve) -- a bit
    messy, but not very hard to do, and the result is very tasty.  There's
    nothing in it but soy beans, water, and sugar (which you can omit
    if you want to - some people also add salt).  If you're really curious
    about it, I'll dredge up the recipe; the result really does taste
    like milk (so maybe Fred wouldn't like it, at that).

    The Chinese-grocery soymilk I've tried was too sweet, and it went bad
    in a couple of days (faster than real milk!).  I suppose I could
    try my own...
    
    I often make tofu lasagna.  I mix one egg with half a pound of soft
    tofu and some garlic to make phoney ricotta.  I don't think it would
    be very good without meat sauce, though, to contribute the flavor.