| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 419.1 | familiar rhetoric | AIM::GOLDSTEIN | Baba ROM DOS | Mon Dec 28 1987 12:20 | 54 |
| .0 sounded a bit familiar...
<begin ever-so-slightly-edited-quote>
-< a fifth column? >-
there has been much discussion about the unrest in the w.b and gaza,
and how arab and jew need to sit down with each other, and learn
how to co-exist.
it seems to me that this is all dangerous wishful thinking...
...in light of the fact that it was not only Polish Jews that reacted
against the state, but Germany's very own "loyal" Jewish citizens
inside the third reich, were guilty of the same treasonous acts.
we have finaly seen the German Jews brazenly strip away any pretense
of being a loyal citizen. in essense the Jewish citzen has defiantely
shown his true colors. he not only sympathizes with his brethren
in russia and poland by calling for mass strikes, but to further
show his solidarity the jew resorts to riots and
violence against "his" own state.
it is hard situation to face. but the simple fact is the the jews
whether in the germany or poland or what ever country have never
supported a german state. the very notion of a german state run
counter to what the jew belives.
there were many so called "progressive" Germans, who of course believed
in pluralism and democracy...
some germans think that jews can be bought. they feel that the jew
only needs to have abetter standard of living to be happy, and with
better educational opportunies the jew will be able to fully assimilate
as aloyal german citizens. but jews do not live on bread alone. indoor
plumbing does not gain loyality. this type of thinking could even
be considered patronizing.
as far as educational opportunities making a difference, it must
be remembered that it is precisely in the universities where unrest
and violence are instigated. indeed, it is in the schools where the hotbed
of zionist propaganda is spewed.
for those germans who want to get rid of poland so germany
can rid itself of its' jewish problem, in demographic terms...
would only be postponed, in terms of the unrest and violence,
what is to be done when jews in germany riot and demand their own
state, and what of Berlin, should that be given up to
placate jewish demands.
i think the only way to really make jews on both banks happy,is for all
germans in germany to packup and leave.
IF IT WALKS LIKE A FIFTH COLUMN AND TALKS LIKE A FIFTH COLUMN........
<end slightly modified extract>
|
| 419.2 | Won't work | YOUNG::YOUNG | | Mon Dec 28 1987 12:27 | 8 |
| Would the Jews leaving really make the Arabs happy? I'll bet there
would be a war between the Arabs about who got which "spoils" and
who got to govern where.
Is that the best solution you can come up with?
Paul
|
| 419.3 | | CURIE::FEINBERG | Don Feinberg | Mon Dec 28 1987 13:35 | 27 |
| re: .-1
> (1) Would the Jews leaving really make the Arabs happy?
>
> (2) I'll bet there would be a war between the Arabs about who
> got which "spoils" and who got to govern where.
>
These two statements are somewhat disconnected.
The answer to (1) is: YES, from the point of view that the Arabs
would finally get rid of the Jews in Israel. The Qoran insists its
believers NOT live peacefully under any non-Islamic government.
[Actually, not ALL the Jews would have to leave. There's a proposal
making the rounds in Israel lately that "only" the Jews who came since
'48 would have to leave, as a condition that the Arab states would
then recognize Israel as a joint Arab/Jewish state. Of course, then
there'd be 1.5 million Arabs (the 1987 population) and 0.4 million
Jews (the 1948 population) in "Israel".]
Will that make the Arabs truly _happy_? I don't know. I think
that "happiness" in this context is somewhat difficult to speak of.
The stated (and in-practice) goal is nothing more, nor less than
the removal of the Jews from Israel, by whatever means necessary.
And (2): Maybe. Probably. Maybe not. Does it matter (to Jews),
if the Jews were to have lost their country again?
/don feinberg
|
| 419.4 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Mon Dec 28 1987 14:16 | 22 |
| Re: .0
Well, about tear gas being needed to disperse the Israeli Arabs
who were demonstrating, there was film on tv last night about tear
gas being used on the Israeli Jews who were demonstrating for peace.
(The tear gas companies must be making a fortune.)
There have also been many comments from the older generation of
Palestinians about their realization that "The state of Israel is
not going to go away" and "We must live in coexistence with it."
It's the young kids who know Israelis only in the role of security
interrogators who are more polarized. Time to come to an agreement
now, while there are still moderate forces left to deal with, I
think. There's a whole article on this aspect in this morning's
N.Y. Times.
It's been a couple of generations since my grandfather come to the
U.S. from Denmark, but you can bet if some analogous situation existed
between the U.S. and Denmark, I'd be protesting in the streets.
Does protesting a government policy or having a special emotional
attachment to another country make one a disloyal citizen?
|
| 419.5 | | KYOA::MAGNES | | Mon Dec 28 1987 22:40 | 80 |
| re:.1
a clever response,though stretching the pt.
it seems to me,that your analogy of arabs living in israel,and the
jews of germany, is so basicaly flawed that the subject is difficult
to discuss given your perceived viewpoint. are you actually comparing
nazi germany to the vast amount of israeli jews, who recognize the
arab problem for what it is?
contrary to your point, german jews were famous for their assimilation
and identification with the "fatherland." most german jews considered
themselves true german patriots,indeed many served with distinction
in ww1. in comparrison the israeli arab does not even serve in "his"
army. the notion that the german jew, who was considered anything but
violent posed any threat to germany is ridiculious.given the fact that
german jews made up such a tiny percentage of the total population,
they would still have posed no threat, even if they were a violent
people and seeked a jihad against germany. nor was germany in the
same situation, with respect to its' jewish citizens, as israel is today
in its relationship to its' arab "brethren." as we well remember
germany was not surrounded by hostile jewish countries seeking
its' destruction. nor were german jews ever supporting an equivalent
of the plo (jlo) as israeli arabs do,according to opinion polls
taken inside israel proper. when israeli arabs come out and support
that piece of garbage called the plo, they are making a bold statement
to all jews.
if we don't recognize the threat from the arab citizen when they
riot in the heart of israel jaffa a suburb of tel-aviv, when will
we? do we need bigger riots a few more murders perhaps.
since you really didn't address the questions in my base note, let
me ask you straight out, if as a progressive person which i perceive
you to be, believe that israeli arabs are loyal citizens and deserve
equal treatment, how would you feel about having arabs in greater
numbers involved in israeli security. to be very fair a sort of
affirmative action plan could be implemented to right the wrongs
of the past. an arab as head of the mossad would be a giant step
towards real pluralism. no more tokenism let's go for the gusto.
if their equal, so be it, let's go all the way. arabs could be in
the defense ministry or the shin bet, better helping israeli's
protect themselves from hostile arab countries. they could probably
be also a real plus when it came to dealing with security on the w.b.
and gaza. i'm sure they would look out for jewish interests, that
junk about suppoting the plo is probably only talk nothing to worry
about. i have some other ideas with regards to REAL pluaralism.
if israel really wants to be democratic the first step has got to
be to repeal the law of return. i'm sure u must favor an arab law
of return. what are your feelings when the israeli gov't officially
promotes jewish aliyah, but not arab. truly racist, the nat'l anthem
that speaks of jews yearining for their homeland could also be changed
to include verses that deal with arab aspirations. there are many
more obvious contradictory examples,but i think you get the pt. its'
funny even left of center parties who wouldn't ever claim a bad thing
against the israeli arab, worrily speaks about the arabization of galilee.
these left of center jews also are promoting jewish not arab settlement in
these areas. it all sounds pretty racist to me.
if you have any doubts about REAL democracy as we want for all
minorities in the states, then maybey you have seen the light. if
not then maybey your ideas are influenced by the fact that you and
i for that matter are a long way from the problem and can afford
to be so "progressive."
i am not presenting any solutions here. i think at the very least
we have to identify a problem for what it is. in light of the fact
that the arab birthrate is much higher than the jewish birthrate,
and diaspora zionism is just that, the problem is only going to
get worse.
the one analogy to war time germany, though a little out of leftfield
is that of neville chamberlin who also couldn't see the writing
on the wall. he felt as i perceive you to feel, that by not recognizing
a problem tough decisions can be avoided until its' to late, and
options are limited. it is not hard to conceive that with the high
arab birthrate there could be an arab party with 20 seats in the
not to distant future if not 20 years then 50 years but someday
they will reach equality in terms of population and representation.
but since israeli arabs are loyal and support a jewish state, let
them grow and prosper.
|
| 419.6 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Mon Dec 28 1987 23:48 | 7 |
| re: .3 "The Quran insists its believers not live peacefully under any
non-Islamic government."
My recollection is that this passage requires the government officials
to also be religious officials. Too bad for Saudi Arabia, Algeria,
etc. I guess they are in big trouble.
|
| 419.7 | not so fast.... | CURIE::FEINBERG | Don Feinberg | Tue Dec 29 1987 09:22 | 19 |
| reply to < Note 419.6 by CIRCUS::KOLLING "Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif." >
> re: .3 "The Quran insists its believers not live peacefully under any
> non-Islamic government."
>
> My recollection is that this passage requires the government officials
> to also be religious officials. Too bad for Saudi Arabia, Algeria,
> etc. I guess they are in big trouble.
I understand here that you mean this sarcastically. (It's kind of
hard to hear your tone of voice via NOTES). Now, assuming this:
I think that that sarcasm is terribly inappropriate.
In fact, the Saudi regime's major domestic problem is _exactly_
this. It is a major issue in other Muslim countries, such as Egypt
(and others). They ARE in trouble over this. And it IS unfortunate
for them.
/don feinberg
|
| 419.8 | tell people they're scum and expect friendship? | AIM::GOLDSTEIN | Baba ROM DOS | Tue Dec 29 1987 11:08 | 20 |
| re:.5
Once again you rely on "reducto ad absurdum" to argue the usual
Kach-falange points.
As many of us have pointed out (especially in that rather lengthy
topic about the unrest, above), there are alternatives. Establishing
a dual-state region (Israel, a demilitarized Arab Palestine) would
go a long way towards reducing the tensions. And in the absence
of tensions, Israeli Arabs (who would be a distinct minority) might
have a much better time fitting in. And yes, then (after a peace
settlement) they could be proportionately represented in the security
forces, government, etc.
But while the government is practicing blatant racism and early-Kipling
territorial expansionism, it's pretty hard to imagine Arabs wanting
to participate in any big way. Jews didn't have to be explicitly
refused admission to Hitler's SS, either.
Of course if you figger Ay-rabbs to be just a bunch of savage natives
(injuns, etc.) things get tougher.
|
| 419.9 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Tue Dec 29 1987 15:29 | 10 |
| Re: .7 and the question of "non-Islamic governments"
No, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. Mildly humorous perhaps.
My understanding is that extremist elements ranging from small to
not so small exist in various countries and have raised this issue.
My point is that a jillion Muslims currently live under governments
that don't conform to this restriction, and (everywhere but Iran?)
the majority of them do not seem to feel that it is an issue, so
I question the assertion that it applies in any significant sense to
Israeli Arabs. Sorry if I seemed insensitive.
|
| 419.10 | | KYOA::MAGNES | | Wed Dec 30 1987 17:54 | 50 |
| RE:.8
first of all you are making a an assumption, that i agree with the
kach party. all i did was state a problem, which is recognized by
many areas of israeli society not only the kach party.
you have proven youself to be indeed a progressive person, in favoring
arabs taking a larger part in gov't. but i think you qualified that
arab participation, by suggesting that arabs will have to wait in
the sidelines until there is a peaceful solution. i sort of notices
a little hesitation.
i also noticed that you carefull seemed to aviod my other pts. again.
that is, are you in favor of repealing the law of return
are you in favor of promoting arab aliyah by israeli representatives?
what about hte nat'l anthem? if not and you any doubt as i said
before then you youself may not see arabs and jews as being equal.
you may by your own standards not be as progressive as you like to
think of yourself. if you are in favor of these measures then you
surely would not be supporting a jewish state. do you honestly believe
that arabs in gov't would be promoting aliyah bringing more jews
into the state. please address these pts. a little more directly.
does it occur to you that there are no arabs with your type of
conviction when it comes to goodwill and accepting a jewish country.
in light of the fact that arabs inside the green line support the
plo. does that at all raise any doubt in your mind. the plo as i
am sure your are aware, do not just want the w.b. they want tel-aviv
haifa ect..they themselves say this in their charter. what else
do you need, to at the very least to put some doubt in your mind
of arab loyality. again as i said before arabs have killed jews
long before there was an israel. the simple fact is they don't want
a jewish state. why is that so hard to accept or let's put it it
this way what makes you think that israeli arabs can accept a jewish
state.
you also said that israel is an expansionst state, you really do
let the adjectives fly.i hope you don't mind, but if i seem to take
the kach line which i never said i did, you seem to be taking the
typical arab line. the idea of israel being an expansionst country
really does not even deserve a response. where are your facts to
back this absurd statement. whose jurisdiction is sinai uner now!
wasn't the w.b. captured after israel was attacked after it was
occupied by jordan. the only reason the w.b. is under israeli control
is because there have been noone for the israelis' to talk with,
unless you support the plo as representable partner
in your quest for righteousness dont't let naivety and guilt get
in your way. i doubt if arabs care half as much for jews as you
do for arabs. it doesn't pay to be blindly ideastic, jews aren't
going to go to heaven any faster than non jews.
|
| 419.11 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Wed Dec 30 1987 18:52 | 11 |
| Re: .10
About what evidence exists that the PLO and Israeli Arabs can accept
a Jewish state: I refer you to my replies in the parallel topic
-- 406.48 and the first paragraph of 406.44; it seems wasteful
of disk space to copy them again.
Possibly the reason not all of your points are replied to is that
your messages are somewhat difficult to read; don't you have an
uppercase key?
|
| 419.12 | | KYOA::MAGNES | | Wed Dec 30 1987 20:23 | 1 |
| actually its' broke and plus i know it aggravates certain people
|
| 419.13 | | KYOA::MAGNES | | Wed Dec 30 1987 22:13 | 47 |
| re:.11
i do want to respond to your notion of "moderate" elements in
the plo. what is your definition of moderate, and can you identify
any of these "moderate" elements.
as far as i know the only moderate arabs that speak out on the w.b
are instantly murdered. the w.b has a long history of dead moderate
arabs.
according to opinion polls taken in the w.b.arabs not only support
the plo, as their couterparts the "loyal" israeli arabs do, but
overwhelmingly upwards of 95% support armed struggle against jews
to obtain their goals.
if you mean by moderate, yassar arafat and his thugs. i have a little
info for you. three arabs associated with al fatah, a gang headed
by that "moderate" murderer, arafat, were caught infiltrating into
israel earlier this week. the automatic weapons and grenades they
had in their possession, could hardly be considered conducive to
setting up an atmosphere of peaceful negotation. the moderate arafat
as he labeled by the media, has neve renounced his desire to destroy
israel nor has any so called "moderate" arab ever called for a
change in the plo charter. the plo charter still states that they
will not stop their "armed struggle" until all of israel tel-aviv
haifa, ect. is under their occupation.
arafat knows what he wants, he boldly says so, its' just a shame
jews don't. iknow it is hard to accept the fact that some people
have no respect for democracy or peace. at the risk of sounding
patronizing, there are in the real world people who just don't want
peace.
as an example of peaceful coexistence one has only to look north
to lebanon. at one time the christians were a majority and a dominant
force, and lebanon was considered the paris of the middle east.
with the high birthrate of the muslim population muslims started
contending for power and the situstion deteriorated. christians
and muslims ended up massacring each other, and civil war soon
followed. with the inclusion of the plo and the syrians, lebanon
as a state, virtually ceased to exist.
if arab christian and arab muslim get along this well. what do you
suppose would happen with so called arab jewish coexistence.
come on, let's be realistic. let's see the world as it really is
not the way we wish it could be.
|
| 419.14 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Wed Dec 30 1987 22:43 | 12 |
| Re: .13
Have you read any of the replies in the parallel note (406)? I've
discussed a great deal of this there and I don't want to type it
all in again (and I know no one who's already read it there wants
to read it here again). An example of a moderate Palestinian is
someone like Edward Said (see his book "The Question of Palestine"),
who wants coexistent Israeli and Palestinian states, or Mubarak
Awad, who advocates the application of Ghandi's philosophy of
non-violent resistance to attain that goal.
|
| 419.15 | | KYOA::MAGNES | | Wed Dec 30 1987 23:17 | 17 |
| re:.13
in your reference to edward said, who i believe teaches at
columbia u., is also a supporter of the plo. if he supports the
plo how can he be a follower of ghandi. i think we have to be
careful of so called moderates, who speak out of both sides of their
mouth. as i said before the only moderate arabs have already been
murdered by so called "moderate" arabs in the w.b. and if they are
not dead they sure ain't talking.
if you believe there are moderate elements in the plo. then you
probably believe there were moderate elements in the s.s. in germany.
the fact is arabs on both side sof the green line support the plo.
a simple fact. and the plo regardless of where they are supported,
syria,iraq,libya are nothing but a gang of mutants who seek terror
to gain their objectives. a simple fact hard to accept, but a fact
never the less.
|
| 419.16 | | KYOA::MAGNES | | Wed Dec 30 1987 23:24 | 13 |
| by the way i almost forgot mr. awad is also a self proclaimed supporter
of the plo. if these people are so peace loving, then their most
obvious step is to renounce the plo as simple terrorist organization.
mr. awad has also called for mass strikes by arabs in his quest.
for a so called homeland. not a very positive approach to bring to a
negotiating table.
it seems to me that mr. awad is very smart he has generated interst
in israel. he knows how to use the media to his advantage.
he still supports the plo, and therefore we have to question his
true agenda.
|
| 419.17 | What should Israel do, KYOA::MAGNES? | YOUNG::YOUNG | | Thu Dec 31 1987 10:29 | 17 |
| Re: .-1, etc
You (KYOA::MAGNES) sound to me like you are saying that peace between
the Jewish Israelis and the Arabs both within and outside of Israel
is impossible. If that is the case, I can only think of two
alternatives for Israel:
1. Kill all the Arabs, both inside and outside of Israel.
2. Given that there are far more Arabs than Israelis, and their
birthrate is higher, expect that eventually Israel will be
overwhelmed.
Do you have another alternative?
Paul
|
| 419.18 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Thu Dec 31 1987 14:38 | 30 |
| Re: last few from magnes
The difference between our views seems to be that you see the PLO
as totally uniform in its views and actions, comprised entirely
of "terrorists", while I see it as now having some extremist members
but in addition having many members whose views have
evolved significantly over the past couple of decades, to the point
where they accept the idea of two coexistent states, Israel and
Palestine. I believe that Said and Awad are in the later category.
Both deplore the use of violence, and both support recognition of
the PLO as the spokesbody(?) for the Palestinians. The latter should
be understood in terms of the Israeli/U.S. positions with regard
to Jordan, etc., which are viewed by the Palestinians as a further
denial of Palestinian national rights.
Said lives in the U.S., Awad in the occupied territories.
Awad's calling for strikes to make things sufficiently uncomfortable
for the Israeli leadership so that they might start to negotiate
would certainly be consistent with a non-violent approach.
I wish I thought it would work.
I'd also like to say that I do understand the Israeli desire that
Israel be a "Jewish state" as opposed to a democracy, because of
the special need for protection that the Jewish people understandably
feel. I support this, provided that Palestine exists also. I also
don't think that it is incompatible with having Israeli Arab citizens
as long as everyone is pragmatic.
|
| 419.19 | | PARVAX::MAGNES | | Sun Jan 03 1988 21:42 | 47 |
| re:.18
awad and said are both americans,awad left israel years ago. neither
one of them can negotiate for anyone. at the risk of beating a dead
horse to death, isay again that moderation and the plo are a
contradiction in terms. have you ever wondered why the overwhelming
majority of israeli jews have that same opinion. the only truly
moderate arabs are either murderd by the plo or forced to keep their
mouth shut. if the plo is the only group that the arabs want as
their representative, then let the arabs suck wind. how peace loving
can these arabs be, to support such an organization.
i mentioned this earlier, would you have considered the s.s. in
germany to have had moderate elements? if they didn't hate the jews
or believe all their nazi propaganda, then they wouldn't have been
in the s.s.
you refer to the w.b. as occupied territories, we should stop being
brain washed by propaganda. we have to remember that this land was
liberated after jordan had occupied and annexed for 20 yrs starting
in 1948. it was only after jordan attacked israel in 1967 that israel
libertated this area. i wish we could all get our history straight
and then we wouldn't get confused by these negative connotations.
what the hell, liberated territories is a good enough term as any.
as far as the term palestinian, if one want to use that description
then israeli jews are as much palestinian as their arab "brethren".
i very rarely hear jordan mentioned as a homeland for these arabs.
since it makes up about 85% of what was the original british mandate.
its' population is made up of these so called palestinain arabs. looks
to me as if it wouldn't be a bad place at all for the arabs of the
w.b to call their homeland, since that is wha it is. but again the
plo is not interested in real pragmatic solutions. during 20 years
of jordanian occupation, in conditions that were truly horrendous,
there was no one yelling or cying out for a so called homeland.
only when israel found itself in control of the w.b., did we all
of a sudden hear the noise. we only have to look a little deeper
than what we hear in the news to see that there is a different
agenda and it has nothing to do with peaceful co-existence.
it seems that arafat knows what he wants, he say so. we only have
to pay attention to his words and deeds and take alook at the plo
charter to get past the confusion. if arafat knows and says what he
wants, then maybey we should all take off our blinders an listen.
again if you can tell me of any plo moderates, i would be appreciative
it.
|
| 419.20 | | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Mon Jan 04 1988 14:14 | 11 |
| Re: .19
Awad lives in the occupied territories, although Israel is trying
to deport him. He was born there. He feels that U.S. citizenship
ahould no more cause him to lose the right to live there than it
would cause an Israeli Jew, many of whom have U.S. citizenship,
to lose the right to live in Israel.
I hope some folks got to see David Brinkley's program yesterday,
on which Said appeared.
|
| 419.21 | | IOSG::LEVY | QA Bloodhound | Tue Jan 05 1988 14:13 | 7 |
| Re: PLO Charter
Would you mind quoting this so we all know what it says?
Malcolm
|
| 419.22 | Arabs are also the descendants of Adam. | 30207::ASHRAF | Muhammad - "Here today, gone tomorrow" | Thu Jan 07 1988 17:03 | 61 |
|
I have been reading this conference to get a better understanding
of the Jewish religion and culture. I have found it very
interesting in general.
Unfortunately, this particular topic started out in .0 with
bashing and expressions of hatred against "all" arabs,
exactly the same type of behavior that the author of .0 has
accused the arabs of!!! The proof is in the pudding.
It is tragic that this attitude pervades the leadership on
both sides of the fence in that area, and has become a way of
life for a lot of people there. The super-powers are not
making it any easier either, since for them it is but a
game of international chess.
No claims have been made that arab states are democracies, but
if I were to belong to a nation that indulges in injustices
against a certain segment of the population, that I accuse
others of, then I don't have a right to call that nation a
democracy, no matter what other nations in the area do.
If I don't like that behavior, then, in a democracy, I have a
right to express myself, without being labelled a traitor
no matter what my race, color, creed, caste, or religion is.
Remember, Nazi party and KKK could not be banned in the US, no
matter how unpleasant that may be for most of the populace
(Presumption of innocence, until proven guilty).
Who has said that democracy comes easy? A price has to be
paid for that. But that is a smaller price to pay than what
might be paid for suppression and domination.
Anyway, the primary reason I am writing this note is re: .3
> would finally get rid of the Jews in Israel. The Qoran insists its
> believers NOT live peacefully under any non-Islamic government.
I have been reading the Qur'an for many years, and many times over.
I have not come across any single verse extolling the followers
to do what is quoted above. The statement seems to have been based
on either misunderstanding or distortion of the facts related to
Jihad (struggle against injustices), which has nothing to do with
either Islamic or non-Islamic government. The war in Afghanistan
would fall under this category, where the government is supposed
to be "Islamic".
There are more non-arab muslims in the world than there are arab
muslims. Also, a fair percentage of arabs (including Palestinians)
are non-muslims. About 80% or so of all refugees in the world are
muslims, if that means anything. The dispute here is not about
living peacefully under Islamic or non-Islamic government but
that of claims to the territory of Palestine. As a result, I
don't see any relationship between the quoted verse from the
Qur'an and the context being discussed.
|
| 419.23 | You're mistaken | FSLENG::CHERSON | and what's your raison d'etre?! | Thu Jan 07 1988 17:57 | 9 |
| re:-1
Muhammed, I think you were reading the earlier responses wrong.
No one ever stated hatred of Arabs. You can search every note in
this conference, but you'll never find one statement of hatred (Our
moderator monitors such things:-). I think that you are confusing
criticism of Arab governments and political organizations with racism.
David
|
| 419.24 | No, he isn't. | CIRCUS::KOLLING | Karen, Sweetie, Holly; in Calif. | Thu Jan 07 1988 18:24 | 6 |
| Re: .23
Well, I don't think we should spend more than 30 seconds on this
point, but I got the same impression as Muhammed. I mean, "a gang
of mutants"? "that piece of garbage"?
|
| 419.25 | | DIEHRD::MAHLER | Mordecai ben Moshe | Fri Jan 08 1988 11:08 | 4 |
|
Please curtail this "yes he is"/"no he isn't" dreck. If the guy
feels that way, so be it.
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| 419.26 | A Retraction | FSLENG::CHERSON | and what's your raison d'etre?! | Fri Jan 08 1988 11:55 | 7 |
| I think that I'd like to retract .23, as I replied to this note
thinking it was 406 (not too many neurons working!).
I would like to state that outside of this note, I have never seen
an instance of hatred towards any other people written.
David
|
| 419.27 | Is it me or you? Who? | GNMRCI::ASHRAF | Muhammad - "Here today, gone tomorrow" | Fri Jan 08 1988 13:05 | 25 |
|
re: .23
David, as I said earlier, I have found this conference to be very
informative in understanding the Jewish religion and culture. In
particular, it is interesting to know how people in this country are
maintaining their culture, and be able to gather for worship.
If you go back and read .22, you will find that I was alluding to
just the topic that started in 419.0, and the discussion that ensued
here, not the conference in general. (Though I have since found a
couple more topics in the same vein. But still I don't contend that to
be in any way typical for the conference). Even incorrect passages
were quoted from the Qur'an to lay blame. Since the people on the
West Bank and in Gaza don't have an Arab government or a political
organization within that area to speak of, I don't see how these could
be the targets of criticism?
Again, I would like to STRESS that I am not characterizing the whole
conference as such. I read some sensible responses even under 419.*
(Thank G-d)!!! My purpose here is to get a better understanding,
not to criticize across-the-board, so I'll just move away from this
topic, as others have done. (|:-)) ============>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bye
|