Conference taveng::bagels

    I for one don't see any harm in what they are doing.
    
    Since the Supreme Court decision allowes Creche scenes on public
    property let them put up their menorahs.
    
    I would rather have nothing as I belive that government should
    not support any religion (where have I head that before) but since
    they are going to have one then let them have a second.  It reminds
    the majority that there are others besides Christians in the world.
    
    Also there is a growing sentiment that Christmas tress aren't a
    religious symbol anymore.    

    Christmas Trees had significance (pagan) as religious symbols to the
    Druids. The Church Christianized them as a way to attract more people
    into the fold. To say that there is no religious significance is
    not correct. To say it is not regognized as having religious
    significance during this season of the year is also not correct.
    To say that some people do not give the tree its proper regognition
    as a religious symbol of Christmas is also true. 
    
    

       I do not agree with the placing of channukiahs in public places.
        I do not agree with the Lubavitch theology. I do not agree
       with lots of other aspects of their way of life.
       
       Most of all, I do not believe the members of the Lubavitch
       movement should be referred to as "cultists".  They are a valid
       segment of Judaism and I think they have as much right to their
       way of life as any other Jew. 
       
       --Julian

re:.3
>       Most of all, I do not believe the members of the Lubavitch
>       movement should be referred to as "cultists".  

    I don't know if Chabad is a cult or not, but the best definition
    I've seen of "cult" is, roughly, "a religion whose membership is
    primarily made of converts".  Lubavich is known to actively solicit
    "converts" from the Jewish community at large, so if they're very
    successful, they're technically able to be called a cult.  I doubt
    that the numbers would bear out, but you never know...

It's not so much that the Christian Church incorporated the tree into
its theology but rather that the Northern Europeans kept up their
traditions whether the church approved or not.

During mid-summer, for example, the Scandinavians dance around may-poles
which are, in some parts of Sweden/Finland about as obvious a phallic
symbol as you could ever ask for.  Somehow, these have never been
incorporated into the local theology.

Martin.

    My American Heritage Dictionary  defines "cult" as :
    		- a system or community of religious worship;
    
    		- obsessive devotion to a person or ideal.
    
    When the words "cult" or "cultists" are used nowadays, they almost
    always have a negative spin to them. (I didn't see a " :^) " in the
    original note.) 
    
    According to this definition---maybe those who are devoted to the
    ideal of "separation of church and state" ...:^).
    
    
     

    
    
    As stated in the first note, if the mainstream Jewish Community
    are the people who are objecting to the placement of Hannuka Menorahs on
    public property, I question whether they are objecting out of personal
    embarrassment? If you don't believe in the Lubbavitch theology but
    identify as a Jew, you should recognize the Menorah as a Jewish
    symbol. Placing them in public places, as Nativity scenes are, only
    reminds gentiles to not be so self-absorbed at this time of year.
    
    Though, it also stands to remind those so inclined of their prejudice,
    it is also one way we can educate gentiles of our beliefs and
    traditions.  Education is the only way to help eradicate prejudice.  
    
    
    

>>	How does one deal with these cultists who ,in their misplaced zeal,
>>	can cause so much harm ?

	SO MUCH HARM?

	Never mind the "cult" label, which is just silly. If you
	have criticism to make about the Lubavitchers (and I'm not one...),
	please _make_ it.  Skip the emotionalism.

	Now, "harm"...

	I've been involved in two such incidents -- one in Nashua, and
	the latest one in Lowell (where I live now).

	Last year, a friend and I built and erected, with the City of Lowell's
	permission and endorsement, a 13 foot diameter menorah on the
	City Hall Plaza.  (BTW, it was erected only during Chanukah, not
	during the whole "holiday season".) A picture made the front page 
	of the Lowell Sun the next day, along with a rather nice little 
	article on Chanukah.

	This year, a group from the Conservative Temple in Lowell found
	a way to effectively block our putting the menorah up again.
	Their reason was that "we were subverting their efforts to
	achieve real separation of Church and state".

	Well, yes. I'd prefer that there were NEITHER menorah nor cr�che
	on public property. But (and it's a big "but"): The reality is
	that the cr�che will continue to be there - every year. I have
	a point to make:  (in our case), Lowell is a pluralistic city.
	Not Christian only, but Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, Confucian, and
	several other groups.  If we have to live with the fact of the
	cr�che, then the least that can be done is to point this out
	in a peaceful and educational, "cross cultural" way.

	This is to say nothing of the fact that you have a Mitzvah -- you
	are obliged -- to "publicize the miracle". This is a great 
	opportunity to fulfill that Mitzvah.

	Now, please tell me about the HARM.  Who was harmed? The Jewish 
	community? The non-Jewish community? Is it B'nai B'rith's "Church
	and state" effort you're talking about? Who?

/don feinberg

    re: .8
    Do you think that you have, in the minds of most of the citizenry
    of Lowell, contributed the menorah as just another symbol of the
    general holiday season?  Do you think it possible that the menorah,
    among these other symbols, is absorbed and included in them?  What
    is the possibility that, if it hasn't already happened, that future
    exposure of the menorah in a Christmas environment causes it to
    lose its unique distinction?

	Ever been  to  Newton  Square in Worcester? Every year the local
    Orthodox  Schul  puts  up  a  natural  gas  "powered" menorah in the
    rotary and I think it looks pretty nice there.