Conference taveng::bagels

    
    <I am not clear on which of the Ten commandments were considered
    <binding on Gentiles.  Those that were, I understand are called Noahic
    <laws.
    
    The Noachide laws, sometimes referred to as Natural Religion, were
    seven commandments given to the descendants of Noah (thereby making
    them binding on all people.)  The commentary to this part of the
    Bible says that while Israelites were required to adhere to the
    entire Torah, obedience to just these seven commandments was in
    ancient times required of non-Jews living among Israelites.
    
    The seven are: (1) establishment of the courts of justice; prohibition
    of (2) blasphemy, (3) idolatry, (4) incest, (5) bloodshed, (6) robbery,
    and (7) eating flesh cut from a living animal.
    
    (They can be found in B'raishit parshah Noach; that's Genesis IX.
    

    RE: .1 Fern,
    
    Thank you for explaining the Noachide laws.
    
    Are you saying, then, that according to Judaism, the Ten
    Commandments are *not* binding on non-Jews?  
    
    I've been told that the commandments pertaining to relationships
    with people are binding, but that those pertaining to relationship
    with G-d are not binding on non-Jews.
    
    My specific interest at the moment is related to observance of Sabbath,
    which the majority of Christians observe on Sunday [although there is 
    one denomination that holds to the Jewish Sabbath].
    
    Irena
                                               

    re .2
    Yes, that's right.  Noah (according to the Torah, anyhow) and his
    family were the only human family saved from the flood, and the
    rules laid down for them were supposed to apply to all their
    descendents (that is, all human beings).  The ten commandments,
    and the rest of the Torah, was a special set of requirements and
    rules for the Israelite people.  That is why the Jewish people are
    the "chosen" people -- not because we are better than any other
    group of people (although it has been interpretted that way - which
    doesn't lead to peaceful coexistence with other groups), but because
    we have special additional rules that do not apply to other people
    (of course, the Noachide laws apply to Jews as well).  So, a "good"
    non-Jew (by this interpretation) is one who follows the Noachide
    laws, while a "good" Jew must also follow the additional ones. 
    Of course, I am a liberal Jew anyhow, but I am certain you would
    get the same interpretation from a more conservative person, too.

    The piece about Noah is right, the other part I question.  The Jewish
    People are not the "Chosen People" as a result of being chosen by
    G-d, They are the "Chosen People" because G-d and his Laws
    were "CHOSEN" by them. Therefore, the Laws of Noah were CHOSEN
    by G-d for all people, the Laws of Torah are there for people to
    Choose.  The Jewish People made a Covenent with G-d to follow the
    Laws, not the other way around. Much anti-semitism has been born
    from the statement "CHOSEN PEOPLE".

re: .-1

>    The Jewish People made a Covenent with G-d to follow the
>    Laws, not the other way around. Much anti-semitism has been born
>    from the statement "CHOSEN PEOPLE".

	Just a note:  Traditionally, we hold that _all_ of the peoples
	of the earth we asked to accept the Torah (i. e., to make
	the Covenant). The Jews were the only ones to accept the
	laws.

	(I can't resist.... You should ask "why".  Why?  Because, when
	the Jews were asked by Hashem to agree to the Mitzvah, they asked
	the price. "Hey, you get 613 for free."  And the rest is history...)


/don feinberg

    Re: .2
    
    The early Christians observed the sabbath on Saturday.  The Romans
    used that day for Saturnalia.  What better reason, then, for choosing
    Sunday as the day of rest in order to help attract converts.

>	(I can't resist.... You should ask "why".  Why?  Because, when
>	the Jews were asked by Hashem to agree to the Mitzvah, they asked
>	the price. "Hey, you get 613 for free."  And the rest is history...)

    You forgot the first part.  All the other nations asked, "What do have
    to do?"  When they heard they refused.

    Moses asked, "How much will it cost?"    8^{).

    Gavriel

    
    I read over the weekend that observance of the Noahite laws were
    considered sufficient for non-Jews for salvation [earning a place
    in the kingdom], but that Jews have to observe those as well as
    the 613...
    
    Sounds to me like *we* got the best deal... ;-)
    
    As to who chose whom, I also read the view that it was the Jews who
    chose G-d, and not the other way around. However, I'm not sure I
    can subscribe to that wholly. There is no one single nation or people 
    who have had the faithfulness of G-d demonstrated so consistently and
    clearly as the Jews, regardless of the state of their own relationship
    to G-d at any given point in time. Any other peoples, undergoing
    what the Jews have undergone, would have ceased to exist. That seems 
    to indicate to me who chose whom first. Of whom else does He say they 
    are the 'apple of His eye'?
    
    But, I digress. Back to the Law, particularly as it pertains to
    Shabbat...I understand that only 'creative work' is not permitted...
    can you give me some examples of 'non-creative work' that is
    permissible on the Sabbath?
    
    Thanks,     
    Irena
    
    

reply to < Note 416.8 by BRAT::PULKSTENIS "Bless the Lord, O my soul!" >
                              -< for a change... >-

    
>    Sounds to me like *we* got the best deal... ;-)

	Well, maybe.  Certainly, the easier time, sometimes... Personally,
	I'm not sure you got the best deal  :-)  :-)
    
>    As to who chose whom, I also read the view that it was the Jews who
>    chose G-d, and not the other way around. However, I'm not sure I
>    can subscribe to that wholly. There is no one single nation or people 
>    who have had the faithfulness of G-d demonstrated so consistently and
>    clearly as the Jews, regardless of the state of their own relationship
>    to G-d at any given point in time. Any other peoples, undergoing
>    what the Jews have undergone, would have ceased to exist. That seems 
>    to indicate to me who chose whom first. Of whom else does He say they 
>    are the 'apple of His eye'?

	No one, but, I think, you're not quite "on".

	The faithfulness of G-d is part of the "deal".  G-d
	keeps his part of this bargain. Though sometimes I'm not so sure 
	about us, there's no question that there has always been a fair
	contingent of Jews who have diligently tried to keep their
	part. If no other single reason, I think it's
	this, and it's implications, which have kept us together
	(and just the thing that's threatening to wipe out large numbers
	of Jews in the late 20th century...).

    
>    But, I digress. Back to the Law, particularly as it pertains to
>    Shabbat...I understand that only 'creative work' is not permitted...
>    can you give me some examples of 'non-creative work' that is
>    permissible on the Sabbath?
    
	Sure. First of all, "work" relates to the 39 types of
	work (detailed in Talmud) which were used in building the Temple
	(THE Temple, i. e., the Beis HaMikdosh).  These are generally
	"everyday/workaday" (and related) activities (building walls, planting,
	raking, seeding, weaving, ...). The word "creative" here
	has to be used quite cautiously!

	Now "work" as a general term includes much. Some examples:
	Learning Torah is "work" -- it's tough, and it requires
	full attention (at least!!).  Leading prayer services is "work".  
	Visiting sick people at home is "work". Teaching kids Torah
	is "work".  Now, all of these are permitted on days other than
	Shabbat.  But one of the prime purposes of Shabbat is to become
	spiritually better connected, so these forms of "work" are
	permitted (and encouraged) on Shabbat because they foster that goal.

	Another example: We generally have many guests for Shabbat dinner 
	(Friday night) and lunch (Saturday noon). Serving them involves 
	considerable work, yet this is permitted. (Of course, we don't
	actually cook, etc., on Shabbat.  The food is prepared in
	advance.) So why is this permitted/encouraged? Several: you get the
	mitzvah of hakneisat or'chim (welcoming guests); we generally
	have Torah discussions around the table, as well as z'mirot
	(special Shabbat songs and prayers); etc.  This serves to
	foster and enhance the Shabbat for everyone, another nice mitzvah
	(as well as another nice experience!).
    
	Do you see the principle? The "work" which is "l'k'vod haShabbat",
	for the honor of observance of Shabbat, is generally permitted
	(unless it specifically falls in the 39 categories). "Work"
	which relates one mentally back to the workaday world is not
	permitted. The popular and simplistic view that "work is not permitted"
	is simply not the case.

	In this way, some funny things occur. One sometimes
	has to analyze them. For example, it would be, 
	by the "letter of the law", permitted to have a TV set on a timer.
	As long as you didn't touch the thing, you theoretically could
	watch it (and some people who should know better _do_).  But
	watching TV is certainly not l'k'vod haShabbat by any stretch
	of the imagination! It's therefore strongly not "Shabbasdik" 
	(Shabbat-like, characteristic of things which one would do to
	honor the Shabbat) and generally not an acceptable practice.

/don feinberg

   re:.8
>    I read over the weekend that observance of the Noahite laws were
>    considered sufficient for non-Jews for salvation [earning a place
>    in the kingdom], but that Jews have to observe those as well as
>    the 613...

    This is, per my religious training (which included lots of comparative
    religion and NOT based on the orthodox halachic tradition), the
    major single difference between Judaism and Christianity, as religious
    families!
    
    Christianity has, as its goal for its adherents, "salvation" in
    the next life.  You have faith, you go to heaven.  (Salvation by
    deeds vs. salvation by faith alone is, for the record, one of the 
    major arguing points among the different Christian denominations.)
    Judaism has, as its goal, the attainment of God's Kingdom on Earth,
    and as a corrolary, teaching the Hebrew people a way to act as close
    as they can while waiting for it to happen.

    To a Christian, what happens when you die is of critical importance.
    To most Jews, what happens when you die is important to the earthworms
    in the cemetery.  We don't live for "salvation" in "heaven".  Thus
    the quoted paragraph above is sort of a mixed metaphor that doesn't
    work.  That, btw, is why I laugh so much when missionary Christians
    try to scare me with "you're not going to be Saved".  I don't need
    or want to be!  I'm not scared of spiders, either, and it's like
    trying to scare me with one.
        fred

     Don,
    
>>    Sounds to me like *we* got the best deal... ;-)

>	Well, maybe.  Certainly, the easier time, sometimes... Personally,
>	I'm not sure you got the best deal  :-)  :-)
 
      I hear you  ;-)  [and I'm not going to touch it!] ;-)

   
>	The faithfulness of G-d is part of the "deal".  G-d
>	keeps his part of this bargain. Though sometimes I'm not so sure 
>	about us, there's no question that there has always been a fair
>	contingent of Jews who have diligently tried to keep their
>	part. If no other single reason, I think it's
>	this, and it's implications, which have kept us together
	
I fully agree. I didn't go into that depth, and my wording left a
lot to be desired. The Abrahamic-Sinaitic covenantal agreement is G-d 
reaching out to Israel as well as Israel's acceptance of Him. I know that this
relationship is rooted in two-way love that has always been there. You are
right in pointing out that the faithfulness of the Jewish people to G-d and
to their own has made a significant contribution to your continued existence.
You have, indeed, been faithful in preserving a beautiful religion and a
rich heritage. I did not wish to minimize this, just to magnify G-d's portion
in this provision, giving credit where I think you'll agree it truly belongs.
    
Your explanation of the purpose behind the permissible work and
non-permissible work on Shabbat is not all that different from the
Christian viewpoint. Although, admittedly, we don't come close to 
the strict observance as you do [and, of course, for many it's a different
day.] How is the lighting of candles different from building a fire
and why is throwing a switch for light not permissible? Or is this
not applicable across the board? *How* do you keep warm in cold climates
on Shabbat? According to Ex. 20:10 non-Jews were to observe Shabbat,
is that correct? and is that view still held today?                 
                                
Re: .8, Fred
            -< Jewish view of Lord: For life, not death >-
            also a Christian view. Life is the very essence of it.
 
  
>>    I read over the weekend that observance of the Noahite laws were
>>    considered sufficient for non-Jews for salvation [earning a place
>>    in the kingdom], but that Jews have to observe those as well as
>>    the 613...

 >   Christianity has, as its goal for its adherents, "salvation" in
 >   the next life.  You have faith, you go to heaven.  (Salvation by
 >   deeds vs. salvation by faith alone is, for the record, one of the 
 >   major arguing points among the different Christian denominations.)
  
     Actually, this is not quite accurate. There is general agreement
     on salvation by faith, and it is clearly spelled out in scripture.
     The meaning of salvation in this life is also explained. An integral
     part of it the indwelling of G-d's Spirit within the believer
     for life here and now, commune with G-d, guidance, growth, etc. etc.
    
>    Judaism has, as its goal, the attainment of God's Kingdom on Earth,
>    and as a corrolary, teaching the Hebrew people a way to act as close
>    as they can while waiting for it to happen.

     Not so different from the Christian teaching. We are both waiting for
     the Kingdom, and have a good idea of what we should be striving for
     while we wait. 

>   We don't live for "salvation" in "heaven".  
   
    We don't either. This is a somewhat a simplification of the salvation 
    teaching.  Actually we both believe in resurrection [yes?]. So we do, 
    in a sense, look forward to that day 'in the world to come'.

>   Thus the quoted paragraph above is sort of a mixed metaphor that doesn't
>   work.  That, btw, is why I laugh so much when missionary Christians
>   try to scare me with "you're not going to be Saved".  I don't need
>   or want to be!  I'm not scared of spiders, either, and it's like
>   trying to scare me with one.

Actually, Fred, the paragraph you're referring to is from a wholly 
*Jewish* source [Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein]. I think your assumption was that 
I was reading/quoting Christian sources. One doesn't learn about things Jewish 
by doing that. :-) I can see how the quote, presented out of context [by a 
Christian yet], might lead you to call it a 'sort of mixed metaphor that 
doesn't work' if you think it is a product of Christian thought. 
Does it 'work' in a different light? ;-)

The rabbi's book is said to be "an eloquent plea for both Christians and Jews 
to relinquish prejudicial myths, and a promise for future dialogue that 
respects the individual parameters of each faith." I think he's done an 
excellent job. Not that I want to plug his book, but it is a good book
for both Christians and Jews who wish to foster greater mutual understanding.

The author speaks of this salvation issue in several ways. He says, 
"A Gentile who abides by the seven Noahite commandments merits salvation
and a 'place in the world to come' [afterlife] without having to accept 
Judaism, while Jews are called upon to observe the laws emanating from the 
Abrahamic-Sinaitic covenant in order to attain the same salvation."

   --- from: "What Christians should know about Jews and Judaism" 
              Rabbi Eckstein [Orthodox] is founder and president of the Holyland
              Fellowship of Christians and Jews, former national co-director
              of Interreligious Affairs for the Anti-Defamation League of 
              B'nai B'rith, and a recording artist of Israeli-Hasidic music.

              [those credentials probably tell you much more than they 
               tell me.]        
     
 Now, as you can guess, I don't fully agree with the good Rabbi, but then
    things look a lot different for each of us on the opposite sides
    of the fence. ;-) I wasn't reading his book to critique it, just
    to see how things look from his side of the fence.
    
Thanks for your thoughts.
Peace.
Irena
        

reply to < Note 416.11 by BRAT::PULKSTENIS "Bless the Lord, O my soul!" >

>Your explanation of the purpose behind the permissible work and
>non-permissible work on Shabbat is not all that different from the
>Christian viewpoint. Although, admittedly, we don't come close to 
>the strict observance as you do [and, of course, for many it's a different
>day.] 

	???? 	Really?

	How so?

>How is the lighting of candles different from building a fire
>and why is throwing a switch for light not permissible? Or is this
>not applicable across the board? 

	It isn't different.  The candles are lit 18 (or 12, or a couple 
	of other customs) minutes before the onset of Shabbat. That's
	one of the reasons that this is one of the very few mitzvot in
	which the bracha is said _after_ performing the mitzvah. Whoever
	"lights", then says the bracha, then considers themselves 
	Shabbasdik (even if it's still technically before Shabbat).

>*How* do you keep warm in cold climates on Shabbat? 

	Heh-heh! :-)

	Well, in the nodern day, it's not an issue.  *I* can't throw
	switches, but my "mechanical servants" (which I might program
	before Shabbat) *can*.  Examples:  thermostat; mechanical
	(or computer based) light controller.  I have computer
	controlled thermostats which are programmed for continuous use
	(i. e., they know what day of the week it is...), and I never
	give the issue another thought.  Ditto for my lights; the
	computer handles it.

	This is actually well-established.  One has to be the direct
	causative of the melacha (Shabbat work).  So, for example, you
	can't walk into an area where there's a motion-detector light
	switch -- your motion would turn the lights on; that's a
	"direct" action. But one's clock turning the lights on is
	a different issue -- your actions _before_ Shabbat are resulting
	in the lights being turned on. [There are _many_ technicalities.
	For example: opening the refrigerator door (yes, one disconnects
	the light permanently...).  Should you wait for the compressor
	to cycle by itself before opening the door, i. e., is opening
	the door a sufficiently direct cause? Both opinions are
	followed.  Many more cases...]

	In "olden days", especially in northern Europe, people did get
	cold on Shabbat.  They'd light big fires before Shabbat, and,
	then, well, freeze by Shabbat afternoon. [There of course were
	a certain number of non-Jews who helped out, but that's another
	rather complex issue -- for another day.]

>According to Ex. 20:10 non-Jews were to observe Shabbat,
>is that correct? and is that view still held today?                 

	Doesn't sound right. I gotta look it up.

/don feinberg

Re: .12, Don,

>>Your explanation of the purpose behind the permissible work and
>>non-permissible work on Shabbat is not all that different from the
>>Christian viewpoint. Although, admittedly, we don't come close to 
>>the strict observance as you do [and, of course, for many it's a different
>>day.] 

>???? 	Really?
>	How so?

I'm not sure what your question is, but let me take a stab at the points
I touched on. Sabbath [Sunday for most Christians, but not all], also
called the Lord's Day, is a day that should be set aside for worship,
praise, prayer, study of the Bible and fellowship...all the things that
promote spiritual growth. It is a day to be spent with G-d. Ideally,
concerns that interfere with this are to be put aside, for true *rest*
both physical and mental, from the cares of the world. It is a day to
come apart, out of the world. 
    
Although the denominations I'm familiar with are not legalistic about it
in the sense of enforcing or requiring such observance, many faithful folk 
do so out of their own desire, as a response to G-d's love. It all depends 
on an individual's relationship to G-d and their level of commitment. 
Seventh Day Adventists observe Sabbath from Friday to Saturday evening, 
while the majority of other Christians observe Sunday, maintaining
the 6/1 pattern of work/rest. Observance of the Lord's day of rest includes
participation in morning group Bible study and congregational worship,
and an informal evening service of learning, sharing, praise and prayer.

Inbetween, there may be dinner or other gathering at home between individual 
families. Now, that's an *ideal* picture, mind you. But when followed, it
does provide the inner spiritual uplift that the soul needs, and is akin
to what I imagine your beautiful [ & far stricter] observances of Shabbat 
provide for you. [There are, of course those whose level of commitment is
not what it ought to be and they would rather watch football on TV than
study the things of G-d]. But *we* don't know anyone like that, right? ;-)]

>>*How* do you keep warm in cold climates on Shabbat? 

>	Heh-heh! :-)

Be nice, now! ;-) 
I suppose you're not allowed to shovel/plow your homestead out after a
snowstorm, either, if it happens to fall on that day. Now, there would
be a nice service for a Christian neighbor to perform for you! [I'm
thinking along the lines of our equivalent to the Ezra Project...a 
beautiful idea, btw. I don't think we have anything like that, but should]

>>According to Ex. 20:10 non-Jews were to observe Shabbat,
>>is that correct? and is that view still held today?                 

>Doesn't sound right. I gotta look it up.
I hope my reference is correct, as it came off the top of my head which
is not always a reliable place to keep things, I've found. I'm speaking
of where G-d says that even the servant in your household is to observe
Sabbath, and the stranger in your midst. [There are two different places 
I know of where this is spoken of.] 

Thanks, Don. It's fascinating dialoging with you. Your willingness to
answer my questions is appreciated. 

G-d bless you real good.

Irena
                                               

	re:  .-1

>I suppose you're not allowed to shovel/plow your homestead out after a
>snowstorm, either, if it happens to fall on that day. 

	Nope. 

	Last winter, there was a period of (I think it was)
	7 or 8 weeks when it snowed every Friday afternoon and Saturday
	AM.  So not only can't you "not shovel it", but you also get
	to walk to the synagogue three times in that 24 hours through
	the guck :-) :-). A couple of times last winter it was 
	"finish saying Havdalah [service ending the Shabbat], and dash 
	for the snowblower". That transition is kind of a bad head trip!

>Now, there would
>be a nice service for a Christian neighbor to perform for you! 

	Yes, it would.  But I can neither ask, nor compensate you!

/don feinberg

    re: non-Jewish observance of Shabbat
    
    If a Jew employs a Gentile servant, it is right to give a day off
    -- even the beasts of burden get to observe shabbat, hence the
    prohibition against driving (which until rather recently involved
    another living creature's labor).  However, what we do on shabbat
    (go to synagogue, read Torah, etc.) is not incumbent upon servants.
    That's basically their business.
    
    Note that Don is describing the Orthodox view of Shabbat; most Jews
    today do not observe it as strictly.  (There's a Conservative 
    synagogue next to a shopping mall around here and we've always joked
    about how convenient it is... to some people, shopping isn't "work".
    Not that it's supposed to be a spiritual experience either.)