Conference taveng::bagels

    Shalom David,

>    My question to you is, does any diaspora community have a right
>    to voice their opinion (and that's the operative term) about what
>    can be construed to be an internal matter of the state of Israel?

    Anybody has the right to voice an opinion about anything.  However,
    the real question is. "Does any diaspora community have the right to
    expect the Israeli government to listen?"  I believe that it depends.
    The government would be well advised to listen to the opinions of one
    of their largest sources of revenue.  However, that opinion must be
    weighed against factors about which the AJC has little or no data.
    Therefore, it is ridiculuous for the prime minister to get all bent
    out of shape when the AJC voices contrary opinions.  It is also
    ridiculuous for the AJC to expect him to follow that advice.
    
    The preceding was just an opinion.  Anybody can flame about it.  I
    won't care.

    Chag Succoth Sameach,
    Gavriel

    re .0,.1
    
    When money talks, people listen.
    
    As for me, if there are any more Pollard cases, and Shatillah masacres,
    I am going to be very very selective with my contributions.
    

    >... does any diaspora community have a right
    >to voice their opinion (and that's the operative term) about what
    >can be construed to be an internal matter of the state of Israel?
    
    Try the similar sounding question:
    
    Does the American Jewish community have a right to voice their opinion
    about what can be construed to be an internal matter of the USSR?
    
    I can't answer "YES" to one of those questions and "NO" to the other,
    can you?
    
    				Paul
    
    

I think the Israeli point of view is as follows (my own opinion of
what's right is somewhat different). I am sorry if this sounds
cynical, but I believe it is factually correct. 


>    ... does any Diaspora community have a right to voice their
>	opinion

The question concerns your RIGHT to voice a negative opinion, not
whether the Israeli Government will choose to listen. The answer is,
"not really". Israel has enough problems fending off attacks from
hostile outsiders. The last thing we need is attacks from friends. 

This attitude stems from the Israeli sensitivity to the "friend or
foe" dilemma, by which everyone and everything is judged. It's been
brought about by 70 years (give or take a few) of war. It has
nothing to do with logic; thus, it's OK to interfere with internal
USSR affairs but not with Israeli ones. As a matter of fact, this is
the preferred course of action. 

You guys are paying for us to be there, that's all. If you want
more, like the right to talk, come on over and live with us, suffer
with us, eat the s**t with us. (Slight problem with this argument is
that even the people that do live in Israel do not have that much to
say about what goes on - but that's a subject for a different note).

    
>	In the past Israeli leaders ... desired a passive Diaspora
>	which would voice nothing but unqualified support for the
>	government 

Actually, the Diaspora is welcome to voice nothing, period, as long 
as they keep signing on the dotted line.

-- Ron    

    RE .4

    Ron,

    Quite a flame there.  It should have been more clearly marked  8^{) .

    I would like to make one comment on it.  An opinion which is
    contradictory to that of the current government need not be, and
    should not be taken as an attack by an enemy.  It should be viewed
    at best as the advice of a concerned friend, at worst as the advice
    of a meddlesome busybody  (take your pick   8^{)  ).

    Gavriel

    Well I've planted a seed and it grew while I was out at a meeting
    (:-).
    
    I'm not going to say YES or NO to my original question.  After having
    lived in both the diaspora and Israel I've seen two realities at
    work.  Here the Jewish leaders (who elected these guys leaders?!)
    would go on about miracles in the desert, etc. without commenting
    on each successive government and it's policies.  By either
    self-delusion or plain nonunderstanding Hebrew would they not be
    tuned into what Israeli leaders (or Israelis?) thought of them.
    
    I specifically remember one speech of Begin in the Knesset where
    he was castigating diaspora Jews, and American Jews in particular,
    when he was saying that "they're sitting on the fleshpots" (exact
    translation).  Then he probably went off to a dinner with Americans
    and smile so hard his cheeks probably were paralyzed. 
        

    David

    If A gives B money and expects nothing in return, after a while
    B starts to expect that money by right.  B also starts to despise
    A (unless A can make B feel guilty, which works for children but
    not nations).
    
    So:
    
    1. Anyone can have an opinion.  Nobody has to listen to it.
    2. If you disagree, you won't get much respect (unless you withhold
       enough money to be noticed).
    3. If you can withhold enough money to be noticed, you'll get a
       massive negative guilt-laden flame from the recipient before
       you get any respect or obedience.
    
    			-John Bishop   
    

    if the ajc "leadership" is so concerned about the security  of
    israel and feel the need to take an active role in promoting an
    international peace plan then by all means they sould make aliyah and live
    with the consequences of such a plan. it seesm hypocritical  at
    the very least. by the way the ajc was the only major
    jewish organizations to take a stand on this issue
    
     there are those jews that feel that it is a one way street in relation
    to israel, they give up the money but their viewpoints aren't being
    listened to. i fail to understand the frustration. if u want change
    then then u have to move to the country. are these same jews who
    are frustrated with israeli policy going to be risking their lives
    if there is another war? i doubt it. as far as threatening to withold
    donations. i don't think israel should be begging for anyone's money.
    remember it is not just an abstract country out in the mideast.
    it is a country supposedly for all the jews. and it doesn't make
    sense to be self righteous for the jews who don't wish to sacrafice
    the comforts of the west. there may someday come a time when we
    jews are no longer made to feel comftorable here in  america,
    (from past history we know what not feeling comftorable means)
    will these same people in that type of a situation feel so concerned
    about israeli policy regarding pollard(whose sentence was unbelievably
    harsh)or the west bank. if some jews don't feel they are getting
    a fair shake in contributing to israel then iwould say please don't
    be upset take ur money and put to another cause of ur choice. i
    think israel will still be able to survive. 
    
     

RE: my own .4 - I did not include a :-), since none was intended. 
My cynical point of view is widely shared by many Israelis.

As a micro example to this macro subject: a hefty 'travel tax' was
imposed DURING one of my visits to Israel. This tax is collected
from Israelis on their way out of the country. In a conversation
with friends, I criticized the way it was done, since (as a visiting
Israeli citizen) I was slapped with an unexpected large expense
(especially for a family of four) I just had to come up with, if I
wanted to go back home. 

A good friend told me point blank he felt I should pay and shut up, 
since I didn't live in the country anymore and had therefore no
right to speak up, even if the subject concerned a personal expense. 

The above may explain the lack of a smiley face on my previous 
reply...

-- Ron

P.S. I shouldn't nit pick, but do have a comment for David Cherson:
     the exact translation for the idiom that refers to 'the easy
     life' is "the meat pot", not "the flesh pot". Makes a
     difference, doesn't it? 

    re:.8
>    if the ajc "leadership" is so concerned about the security  of
>    israel and feel the need to take an active role in promoting an
>    international peace plan then by all means they sould make aliyah and live
>    with the consequences of such a plan. 

    Pork guano.
    
    If the Israeli government wants my money, I should be allowed to
    comment on what they do with it!  Funny how the author of .8 feels
    this way now because he likes the govt. there now, but if the shoe
    were on the other foot and the govt. was using it to socialize industry
    or something else leftist...
    
    The Israeli govt. depends upon money from outside sources to stay
    in business.  If they were buying Stinger missles and giving them
    to Iran with our money all the better to shoot American tankers
    with, then perhaps more Americans would be pissed.  (You mean they
    were?  "Now, Ollie, look what you made me do.")
          fred

    .10
    > IF THE ISRAELI GOV'T WANTS MY MONEY. I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO COMMENT
    ON WHAT THEY DO WIHT IT.
    
    I AGEE W/U 100% WE ALL SHOULD HAVE THE RITE TO EXPRESS OUR OPINIONS.
    I THINK THE PROBLEM ARISES WHEN WE SEE OUSELVES IN AN EQUAL PARTNERSHIP
    WITH ISRAELI CITIZENS AND EXPECT OUR CONCERNS TO BE RESPONDED TO.
    THE ISRAELI GOV'T SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE TO ITS' TAXPAYING ELECTORATE
    IN MAKING POLICY IN THE SAME WAY WE EXPECT OF ALL DEMOCCRACIES.
    MAKING GOV'T POLICY BECAUSE OF THE THREAT OF CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS
    WITHOLDING CONTRIBUTIONS JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE RIGHT WAY TO
    RUN A COUNTRY. AND SINCE ALIYAH IS NOT EVEN CONSIDERED AS AN OPTION
    BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF JEWS I THINK WE'LL JUST HAVE TO SETTLE WITH
    VOICING OUR OPINIONS AND HOPEFULLY SUPPORTING THE STATE.
    
    
                   
    AS FAR AS THE AJC IS CONCERNED YOU ARE RIGHT THEY SHOULD HAVE THE
    RIGHT TO EXPESS THEMSELVES. I GUESS THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH THE
    WHOLE ISSUE IS THAT THE AJC IS A LARGE JEWISH ORGANIZATION CLAIMING
    TO REPRESENT A LARGE PORTION OF THE POPULATION AND THEREFORE THEIR
    OPINION CARRIES MUCH MORE LEVERAGE AND PRESSURE THAN THAT OF AN
    INDIVIDUAL.                                                      

    Well now that the holidays are over I have returned to my note for
    a further comment.
    
    While I certainly support the notion of diaspora communities voicing
    their opinion and concern over Israeli policy, there is a disturbing
    aspect to relations between No.American Jewry and Israel.  It was
    expressed in a few earlier notes that if Israel were to take some
    course of action that they dissapproved of, then they would withold
    their contributuion.
    
    While there may be instances where even I feel that all contributions
    should be witheld to emphasize a point, I would like to stress that
    Israel is not a charity.  There is a underlying attitude amongst
    American Jews, and especially their "leaders", that it is a poor
    relation of sorts and we've got to help it out from time to time.
    In fact I would advise those amongst us with average incomes (and
    that's most of us I presume) not to contribute money, but think
    in terms of other types of contribution.  Let the big "makhers"
    give the bucks, they have it not us.
    
    David  

    So _how_ is it not a charity?  It sure looks like a charity to me.

    re: -1
    
    What I was saying was that there shouldn't exist an attitude of
    looking at Israel as a charity.  I sometimes think that American
    Jews want Israel to be the poor relation who has to go begging because
    that can relieve (temporarily) the constant feelings of ambivilence
    and guilt.
    
    Anyways, lets hear from some of our chevrei that are living there
    now, and see what they think.
    
    David 

    This note really does surprise me. I've just come back from Israel
    and couldn't say that it 'looked like a charity' to me. If you want
    a taxi you know you're more likely to get a Mercedes than a donkey!
    
    I think somewhere along the line the opinions expressed here look
    to me a bit screwey. I don't know about you but when I express my
    opinions I like to do this when I feel I have something to contribute
    that can add a bit of enlightenment to the problem at hand. 
    
    Now what I'm saying is that if you're living in the Diaspora I don't
    feel it's your place to fight Israels own internal political battles.
    I'm not saying it's wrong to have opinions, but sometimes they tend
    to get expressed in a forum that's inappropriate and harmful to
    the public image of Israel. There are enough Israelis who can shout
    for Herut, Mapam etc. I do feel however that there are times when
    people in the Diaspora could form a very useful role and advise
    Israeli leaders of what is the appropriate thing to say or not.
    Sometimes it's better to shut up! When you live in a country you
    learn what should sometimes be said, what shouldn't, and often more
    importantly is the WAY THINGS ARE said.

    Now, of course if the topic is one that has a great relevance to
    Jews in the diaspora then Isreal has a duty to listen and take some
    note. 
    
    On giving to charity, one of the problems is that as with all things
    in Israel there is a lot of politics. If you want to give to charity,
    and you don't like the politics, then give the money to a specific
    cause. Choose a hospital, Magin David Adom, a yeshiva, or what ever
    you would like. Just as you might do for a local charitable
    contribution.
    
    Remember that with American contributions to Israel not all things
    are black and white. America does not always supply what Israel
    asks, and the super powers work very hard to maxamise their
    arms sales (profits) by providing the maximum 'balance' of arms
    to neighbouring countries!
    
    Shalom
    
    Malcolm
    

    I don't accept the argument that Israel's politics are an internal
    matter for Israelis only.
    
    They say we should make aliyah, then we can comment.  I would probably
    be acceptable under the current law of return, but my wife probably
    would not.  So she would be a second class non-citizen.  The Israeli
    government continues to heavily support the instutions of people
    who want to make the law even more restrictive.  Is this only an
    internal matter?
    
    Israel continues to build housing for Israelis on the West bank.
    This is disputed territory, claimed by Jordan.  Although it is unlikely
    now, a future Jordanian government might go to war to reclaim "their"
    territory.  The US has treaties and agreements with both countries,
    and would have to decide who to support.  Is this only an internal
    matter?
    
    Israel has sold arms to Iran (yes, I know, with approval/agreement
    of the US government).  Some of these arms may be used against US
    personell in the Gulf.  Is this only an internal matter?
    
    Can you give me an example of something which IS only an internal
    political matter?
    
    				Paul
    

>    I don't accept the argument that Israel's politics are an internal
>    matter for Israelis only.
Well who do you suggest should decide on it? Certainly all of those on whom
we could count to join us should things turn sour, or also those who just
debate which place closest to 495 serves better bagels?
    
>    They say we should make aliyah, then we can comment.  I would probably
>    be acceptable under the current law of return, but my wife probably
>    would not.  So she would be a second class non-citizen.  The Israeli
>    government continues to heavily support the instutions of people
>    who want to make the law even more restrictive.  Is this only an
>    internal matter?

Well that is a political issue. I can understand your feelings, I'm in the
same position. But that is something you/us should try and change from within
the country. How would it be if I criticise the US not residing there and
refuse to live there because I can't be president as I wasn't born in the US? 
You want to change something, well get aboard, show a commitment and make
it happen, because you certainly ain't going to make it happen from 495.

>    Israel continues to build housing for Israelis on the West bank.
>    This is disputed territory, claimed by Jordan.  Although it is unlikely
>    now, a future Jordanian government might go to war to reclaim "their"
>    territory.  The US has treaties and agreements with both countries,
>    and would have to decide who to support.  Is this only an internal
>    matter?

I don't understand this . I mean is your point the fact that as we are
not aligned with US foreign policy (has there been one since Truman?) it
could be problem? We've not yet become the 51st state to my knowledge.
Sovereign states conduct their foreign policy according to THEIR best interest
not the US's. And yes occasionally they coincide, as the US's does with
Israel-ocassionally.

>    Israel has sold arms to Iran (yes, I know, with approval/agreement
>    of the US government).  Some of these arms may be used against US
>    personell in the Gulf.  Is this only an internal matter?

Well....flame off....you try and add what successive US governments have
sold during the Shah era and what was recently provided (artillery shells, F-4
spares etc...) is truly peanuts; with as you say the agreement and 
encouragement of the US government.

>>    They say we should make aliyah, then we can comment.  I would probably
>>    be acceptable under the current law of return, but my wife probably
>>    would not.  So she would be a second class non-citizen.  The Israeli
>>    government continues to heavily support the instutions of people
>>    who want to make the law even more restrictive.  Is this only an
>>    internal matter?
>
>Well that is a political issue. I can understand your feelings, I'm in the
>same position. But that is something you/us should try and change from within
>the country. How would it be if I criticise the US not residing there and
>refuse to live there because I can't be president as I wasn't born in the US? 
>You want to change something, well get aboard, show a commitment and make
>it happen, because you certainly ain't going to make it happen from 495.

FLAME ON

How would it be to criticise the US, while not residing there, because you
were denied entry or because you were informed you would never be able to
become a citizen?  In my opinion, damned justified.  All arguments about
making aliyah and changing things from within fall apart if you can't get
in!

FLAME OFF

I don't believe the opinions of American Jews should have much effect on
Israeli foreign policy.  However, internal policy which excludeds some
American Jews and denies the validity of their organizations has to be
addressed from America as well as from within Israel!

Gavriel

    Denied entry? Not become a citizen? Gavriel I beleive you should
    check your facts. I am an Israeli citizen, my wife is a
    Japanese-American and is entitled to an Israeli passport and to
    live in Israel whether she is Jewish or not! Noone prevents you
    from applying for a permanent resident status. The issue of Who
    is a Jew which I beleive got muddled up with US-Israel foreign policy
    and what have you, is a matter which will have more chance of success
    of being resolved by you (plural) being THERE and voting Aguda Israel
    and the others out of office. Someone once said "Instead of complaining
    about the darkness why not light a match?"

    >The issue of Who is a Jew which I beleive got muddled up with US-Israel 
    >foreign policy and what have you, is a matter which will have more chance 
    >of success of being resolved by you (plural) being THERE and voting Aguda 
    >Israel and the others out of office. Someone once said "Instead of 
    >complaining about the darkness why not light a match?"

    Well put Greg.  I can remember that following the Sabra-Shatila crisis
    when many criticisms were being voiced from the diaspora, Eliyahu 
    Ben-Elissar, who was a minister at the time said that he would actually
    be happy if the entire membership of B'nai Brit were to make aliyah, and 
    vote the government (Likud at the time) out of office, as long as they 
    would be making aliyah.  Now this view is shared across the political 
    spectrum in Israel from right to left, you'd probably could even find
    some agreement among members of the Communist party (the Jewish members of 
    course).

    I've been away at a conference, and am up to my tachat in work right now,
    so I haven't checked into this conference in a while.  Glad to see this
    discussion continuing, and I'd like to see some input from TAVland.

    David
       

RE: .19

>	I am an Israeli citizen, my wife is a Japanese-American and is
>	entitled to an Israeli passport and to live in Israel whether
>	she is Jewish or not!

Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought she will not be entitled
to citizenship or voting rights. 

Also, has she actually tried living in Israel? Did she like the way
she was accepted? 


>	... being resolved by you (plural) being THERE and voting Aguda
>	Israel and the others out of office.

Do you really believe that Israelis who vote can make any
difference? I do not. All the orthodox parties command about 10% of
the population, yet manage to sit in all governments. Could THE
MAJORITY of the people who live in Israel change this? Can ANYONE
vote Agudat Israel out of office? 


>	Someone once said "Instead of complaining about the darkness
>	why not light a match?"

Complaining used to be our (Israeli) national pastime. Surely, you 
are not going to deprive us of THAT?

-- Ron

    re .17:
    
    "How would it be if I criticise the US not residing there..."?
    
    It would be fine by me.  It's also one of the world's major
    occupations.
    			-John Bishop

re: .21

>Do you really believe that Israelis who vote can make any
>difference? I do not. All the orthodox parties command about 10% of
>the population, yet manage to sit in all governments. Could THE
>MAJORITY of the people who live in Israel change this? Can ANYONE
>vote Agudat Israel out of office? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Israeli system if a particualar party or
alignment if you will, has an overwhelming majority, then minority parties such
as the Aguda would be deprived of any leverage whatsoever.  Of course I am 
assuming that if 500,000 American Jews made aliyah tomorrow (what a 
hallucination!), that a majortity of them would vote for the labor alignment, 
and others to left of the alignment. 

>>	Someone once said "Instead of complaining about the darkness
>>	why not light a match?"

>Complaining used to be our (Israeli) national pastime. Surely, you 
>are not going to deprive us of THAT?

In other words you should be able to practice this sport anywhere?

David

In answer to Ron's questions:


>>	I am an Israeli citizen, my wife is a Japanese-American and is
>>	entitled to an Israeli passport and to live in Israel whether
>>	she is Jewish or not!

>Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought she will not be entitled
>to citizenship or voting rights. 
She is entitled to citizenship due to marriage and to vote. I am entitled
to a green card, a 3 year wait to become American BUT I have to go to school
first to learn what most Americans never have- history :^)

>Also, has she actually tried living in Israel? Did she like the way
>she was accepted? 
She went to Israel twice. Once together, the second time she did Israel
on her own with Egged buses from Beersheva to Kibboutz Amiad up north to
visit friends. She had no problems as soon as she found out that to get
in the bus you karate chop your way in, and to make herself understood she
just yelled louder than the rest of the meshugahs! She loved the place,
hated the burocracy, and was enchanted with the people she met (wonder who
they were?). Mind you seing her put on her "little boat people" act on a
bus once to get the driver to tell us when to get off was...Broadway acting
at its best :^), the rest was just plain chutzpa!


>>	... being resolved by you (plural) being THERE and voting Aguda
>>	Israel and the others out of office.

>Do you really believe that Israelis who vote can make any
>difference? I do not. All the orthodox parties command about 10% of
>the population, yet manage to sit in all governments. Could THE
>MAJORITY of the people who live in Israel change this? Can ANYONE
>vote Agudat Israel out of office? 
I beleive I briefly covered that in a previous note. The political problems
in Israel stem from the pseudo-parliamentary system we have which is similar
to the airline problem in the US. Namely anyone with 2 valid ID's can run
an airline OR create a party in Israel. Electoral reforms have to come about,
and I don't see how that is going to change from yelling across the pond.
I would favor taking electoral rights away from anyone (appart from medical
reasons) who does not serve in Tzahal. If as is the case of Arabs not serving
in the IDF, jobs are witheld due to security reasons AND the fact that they
have not served in the Army, so should the right to vote in Israel be witheld
from those who do NOT even beleive in the State of Israel. Then we could
devote our energies to other problems...Melech Sharon?

>>	Someone once said "Instead of complaining about the darkness
>>	why not light a match?"

>Complaining used to be our (Israeli) national pastime. Surely, you 
>are not going to deprive us of THAT?
Oh no, but expecting results and "threatening" to withold contributions
to Magen David Adom or what have you... Do remember that Sabra and Chatilla
were brought to light NOT by CBS but by citizens who were outraged that
our army should even be REMOTELY involved in such deals. The demonstrations
mobilized over 10% of the population in Tel Aviv to bring those accountable
to trial.
    
To David:
Welcome back, missed you as I was on 495 last week...

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Israeli system if a particualar party or
>alignment if you will, has an overwhelming majority, then minority parties such
>as the Aguda would be deprived of any leverage whatsoever.  Of course I am 
>assuming that if 500,000 American Jews made aliyah tomorrow (what a 
>hallucination!), that a majortity of them would vote for the labor alignment, 
>and others to left of the alignment. 
I would just settle for them letting us yordim vote by proxy :^)

RE: .23

>	... in the Israeli system if a particular party ... has an
>	overwhelming majority, then minority parties such as the
>	Aguda would be deprived of any leverage whatsoever.

I believe you are correct. That is, not forgetting the IF.


>	... assuming that if 500,000 American Jews made aliyah
>	tomorrow (what a hallucination!) ...

Again, correct. Again, not forgetting the IF.

The real life situation, though (current and since day one), is
different. I believe the Israeli voter has NO say, NO control, NO
effect over how the country is run. More than that: the government
has an inordinate amount of control over the personal life of the
voter. 

Given that, I feel it is naive to expect Israel to heed (or even to
listen) to foreign citizens, be they Jewish or not, contributors or
not. I am not discussing either side of the argument. I am simply
stating what I see as the cold, hard facts. 

Finally, when I said that "Complaining used to be our (Israeli)
national pastime", I should have appended a half :-). We are all
'kooters'... 

But, I think I detect a note of annoyance in David's "In other words
you should be able to practice this sport anywhere?", and my
response is: Sure. We do live in a free country. If complaints
bother you, you're free to let me know. I'll either refrain or
you'll be free to ignore my complaints in the future.

In either case, personal style should not be a deterrent to free
flaw of information/opinions. 


RE: .24 

I think MOSSAD::GREG did not get my meaning. When I said, "Also, has
she actually tried living in Israel? Did she like the way she was
accepted?", I meant, live there permanently, not as a tourist. I was
wondering about the intolerance of both the Israeli public and the
authorities. Of course, if she only went there as a tourist, you
cannot answer my question. 

As to political fragmentation in Israel, I think your conclusion is
correct. This is, indeed, one of the major reasons why the Israeli
government is immune to external (Israeli public or Diaspora)
influence. 

BTW, where is MOSSAD located (the node, not the Mossad itself)?

-- Ron 

    I would like to correct some of my earlier statements.  After some off
    line conversation, I have come to the conclusion that things do not
    necessarily work as bad as "official" policy would indicate.  It seems
    that a non-Jew married to a Jew can obtain citizenship by virtue of the
    marriage.  Even though the marriage is not "officially" recognized.
    I would presume that a non-orthodox convert married to a born Jew could
    obtain citizenship the same way.  An unmarried convert would probably
    not be able to sneak through the system that way.

    This means that we non-orthodox gerim are not so totally disenfranchised
    as it might appear     8^{).  However, since this is SNEAKING by the
    system, we can not count on it working every time or forever.  This
    actually lends credence to the philosophy of "make aliyah and vote for
    a change."  Do it now before somebody new changes the rules.

>The real life situation, though (current and since day one), is
>different. I believe the Israeli voter has NO say, NO control, NO
>effect over how the country is run. More than that: the government
>has an inordinate amount of control over the personal life of the
>voter. 
>
>Given that, I feel it is naive to expect Israel to heed (or even to
>listen) to foreign citizens, be they Jewish or not, contributors or
>not. I am not discussing either side of the argument. I am simply
>stating what I see as the cold, hard facts.

    Some recent events indicate that foreign citizens have had some say.
    The last time the "Who is a Jew" issue was coming up for a vote, the
    PM was making a lot of noise about how he was going to back it.  Then
    A group of representatives from american fund raising organizations
    forced an interview (after being told not to come they did anyway  8^{).
    Within 24 hours the motion had been tabled  indefinitely.

    Maybe we shouldn't expect to be heard from so far away on this side of
    the pond  8^{).  But sometimes it is worth giving it a try.

    Gavriel

>The real life situation, though (current and since day one), is
>different. I believe the Israeli voter has NO say, NO control, NO
>effect over how the country is run. More than that: the government
>has an inordinate amount of control over the personal life of the
>voter. 

I don't believe this to be true.  I've voted in Israel and found that I can 
have a say in how the country is run.  In fact (and I hate to admit it!) the
present system lends itself more to personal expression than the two-party
U.S. system.  Americans tend to believe that their constitutional democracy is
the most flawless system in the world.  How much control do you feel that you
have over policy making in this country?  Oh yes, every four years there is
a presidential election, but the choice is either between a Republican or a 
Democrat, and the differences between these two aren't worth mentioning.

>But, I think I detect a note of annoyance in David's "In other words
>you should be able to practice this sport anywhere?", and my
>response is: Sure. We do live in a free country. If complaints
>bother you, you're free to let me know. I'll either refrain or
>you'll be free to ignore my complaints in the future.

I wasn't annoyed, more that I should have reworded my reply.  I really didn't
understand your point.  Sure, I think you should be able to complain loud and
clear when you want to, no argument there.

>In either case, personal style should not be a deterrent to free
>flaw of information/opinions. 

Ditto the above.

David

    Re: RETORT::RON ..."Where is MOSSAD"
    WE are everywhere :^)
    I am located in Geneva at European Center for Nuclear Research

    So you don't work for DEC? How do you get access to notes?
    
    Malcolm

    Malcolm,

    MOSSAD:: is at the European headquarters in Geneva.

    The Mossad is everywhere   8^{).  One must not be so serious.

    Gavriel

    MOSSAD is located at CERN about 4 miles from European Headquarters...

    
    
    	My g-d it's full of acronyms!
    
    	8-}
    
    

First, thanks for all answers as to the MOSSAD:: location. 

Second, I feel I should have preceded my previous replies with a
disclaimer, to the effect that all opinions expressed, were based on
conditions in Israel as of the early seventies, when I left the
country to move to The States. I do not believe conditions have
changed materially, but --if they have, and to the better-- I stand
corrected. 

-- Ron

    re .17
    	It is in the Constitution of the United States of America that
    anyone can criticize the United States. I am referring to the First
    Amendment. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say you have to
    be a citizen to practice Free Speech, Free Press, worship as you
    please and right of assembly. People who live in these United
    States who are not citizens may say whatever they want, to whoever
    they want.
    
    	A recent United States Supreme Court decision
    allows anyone to call a police officer a son of a bitch or whatever
    else is their opinion of that policeman. The case involved a Texas
    man who was stopped for a traffic violation. The police harassed
    him after he called the policeman a son of a bitch so he took the
    police to court and the case went all the way up to the Supreme
    Court.

    	With these freedoms also come responsibilities. We must know how
    it would hurt our feeling if we were called names while doing our
    job, so as a common courtesy we should not call other people bad names.

    	Where else but in America is their such freedom coupled with
    responsibility.
    
    	To my friends in Iran, Happy Death To America Day, which you
    are celebrating today. See, even you are allowed to criticize America.
    Now realy, wouldn't you rather be living in the United States!
    
    				Arnie

    	>It is in the Constitution of the United States of America that
    >anyone can criticize the United States. I am referring to the First
    >Amendment. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say you have to
    >be a citizen to practice Free Speech, Free Press, worship as you
    >please and right of assembly. People who live in these United
    >States who are not citizens may say whatever they want, to whoever
    >they want.
    
    Arnie, Israelis enjoy identical freedoms, and I also believe that temporary
    and permanent residents may also exercise the same set of rights.  Israel
    is not an East Bloc country.    
	
    >A recent United States Supreme Court decision allows anyone to call a 
    >police officer a son of a bitch or whatever else is their opinion of that 
    >policeman. The case involved a Texas man who was stopped for a traffic 
    >violation. The police harassed him after he called the policeman a son of 
    >a bitch so he took the police to court and the case went all the way up to 
    >the Supreme Court.

    So what?  Calling politicians and officials sons of bitches (it's actually
    sons of whores in Hebrew) is a sport that dates back to biblical times.
        
    David