Conference taveng::bagels

    I found one! Its in Jersey City (where I live); they *only* charge
    $35 per person, and they're actually encouraging new members!
    

Jeremy,

First of all, you are identifying the practices of Reform synagogues in
New York City with "Judaism".  I think that is a mistake.

Next, are you merely "a temporary visitor in town" or are you
a newly-arrived resident of NYC?  I don't see why it is illegitimate
for a synagogue to expect a newly-arrived resident to pay his share
to support the synagogue.  

Next, consider the financial and space problem that Reform and Conservative 
synagogues have: They have fixed expenses to maintain a large building, which
only really gets used once a year because 90% of their members only attend
services once a year; they pay salaries for a Rabbi, a Cantor, Hebrew School
teachers, and assorted others.  What should they do, make the 10% of their
members who are active in the community (who basically keep it going from
one Rosh Hashanah to the next) pay for all this, so that the other 90% will
conveniently have someplace to go when the mood suddenly strikes them?

Next, you work for DEC, which is not known as an overly stingy employer.
So I am assuming you have a more-or-less middle-class income.  Who do you
think should be paying to make sure that a synagogue and Jewish community
should exist for you to use, if not you?  Why is it someone else's 
responsibility?  A synagogue is not a "charity" (maybe it is for the IRS,
but it doesn't count as charity in the Jewish sense) - it is for YOUR use;
if you don't think you need one, don't pay.  But don't expect someone else
to pay for you!  If you are too poor to be able to afford to pay for your
communal worship needs, then you want to rely on the charity of others
to help you.  Nothing wrong with this, and I suspect that even the reform
synagogues in NYC would be willing to charge you a reduced fee once you
explained that you were in financial difficulties and needed their help.  

Next, Judaism is not Christianity.  Judaism does not in general assume that
synagogue membership is the equivalent of a committed Jewish life.  The 
situation is the reverse: if you have an involvement with Judaism, which
is expressed through hundreds of non-synagogue related activities and interests,
then one of your concerns should be (so says Judaism) to have a place where
you can pray together with others, and to arrange for spiritual leadership.
De facto, in the reform and conservative movement, things don't quite work
out this way; the major relationship most reform and conservative jews have
with Judaism is through their synagogue.  However, this is too bad, and 
has never been the planned or desired state of affairs, it is merely a bad
copy of the dominant culture's mode of religious life.  Are you proposing
that Judaism has been mistaken about this (lo these many millenia) and should
change to imitate Christianity more closely?  You have alot more convincing
to do to get me to agree, than merely to make baseless whining accusations
about how Reform Synagogues are out to get your bucks.

On the other hand, I certainly hope you find a place to pray on the High
Holidays this year.  I am not from NYC, and the only synagogues I know of
in any detail in Manhattan are Orthodox, so I can't be of much help. 
Would you consider a Conservative or Orthodox synagogue, or does it have to
be Reform? Does it have to be in Manhattan? in NYC?  If you provide more info
I suspect other readers of this conference who live in NYC will be able 
to help you out with concrete information; on the other hand, in your message 
you didn't really appear to be looking for help or info, merely for an outlet 
for your flames.

To be honest, I think you have an attitude problem.  Hope you work it out
for the best.

Kathy

< Note 372.2 by HPSVAX::ROSENBLUH >

RE .2	Kathy, you are right.  But I think the heat was a little overwelming.
	So, please chill out a little.	8^{)

RE .1
    Jeremy,

    I am glad to see that you found a shul to go to for the Holidays.
    However, I think that you have demonstrated some ignorance of the
    practices of large shuls.  First of all if you have ever gone to
    services at one of the large shuls on the High Holidays would know
    that seating is almost impossible to handle for those who have tickets.
    My wife and I go to these services with my in-laws in Providence.
    On a normal Shabbat their main sanctuary is 1/3 to 1/2 full.  On
    the Holidays they fill the main sanctuary, the small sanctuary and
    the meeting hall.  They have to "borrow" a rabbi from the Jewish
    Theological Seminary.  So it is not surprising that they require
    tickets.

    As to the cost.  The price is almost always negotiable.  If you are
    a visitor from out of town, you can usually arrange tickets without
    difficulty.  The price will usually be less than what would be asked
    of a local non-member.  The shul will always have as its first priority
    to encourage membership.  As Kathy pointed out, someone has to support
    the system.

    If you are interested in membership, the price is ALWAYS negotiable.
    NO ONE will be turned away for membership because of inability to pay.
    Most shuls charge less for young couples/families.  Usually there is
    discounting for the elderly and widowed.  However, don't expect someone
    to believe that you are "hard up" unless you can give some reasonable
    evidence.  (The world is full of pikers   8^{)   .)

    The last thing I want to address is your comparison to the Christian
    churches.  If you have ever been any where near a "midnight mass" at a
    Catholic church at christmas you would know that their system is no
    better.  People are usually standing room only, standing in the foyer,
    standing outside.  Not only that but, regular members of a church who
    attend services every week may not get in because the non-members got
    there first.  The people who are "lucky" enough to get in early and
    get seats end up with stifling air and high temperatures.  All this
    because the church does not try to make membership of the parish part
    of the requirement to attend a very popular service.

    I think that our system presents a good, workable answer to maintaining
    our places of worship.  If you are really interested in the "cheapest"
    way out, I might suggest that you investigate joining a "Havurah".  No
    buildings to pay for or maintain.  Usually no professional rabbi or
    cantor to pay.  And, most importantly, if you can find the right one, a
    group of people with similar attitudes to you.

    L'shana Tovah,
    Gavriel

    Hey, folks!  Let's not point fingers at each other quite so much,
    or we won't need any external enemies to bring about our demise;
    We'll do ourselves in, while our REAL enemies smile....
    
    Some schuls require high holidays tickets and some don't.  Of the
    ones that do, some charge money, even big money, for them.  The
    schuls need the money, to pay for the rabbis, cantors, teachers,
    janitors, workmen, books, heating, electricity, supplies, water,
    etc. -- the same as any other similar-sized organization.  It is
    not just the Reform schuls that do this, and they are not the only
    ones who sometimes need to rent space for the larger services -
    my folk dancing club doesn't meet this week because the Lubavitchers
    rent our hall (cafeteria of a local grade school) for their services
    (of course, half of us wouldn't be there anyhow - the group is about
    50% Jewish - so we probably wouldn't take in enough money to cover
    the hall rental anyhow!).  I don't know if they charge for tickets
    or not, but it wouldn't be too surprising, since they have to pay
    to rent the hall, too.  My husband's mother's (Orthodox) schul charges
    for tickets; we used to go there for high holidays.  Now we stay
    here; our Reform schul does not charge for tickets, and ANYONE can
    attend high holiday services (or at any other time) - it has been
    our policy since the congregation formed.  The only thing tickets
    are supposed to do for you is guarantee that you will get to sit
    down in a REAL CHAIR, but only if you show up on time, and we have
    never actually enfored that, either.  We get some pretty big crowds
    at other times of the year too - especially for Simchat Torah (and
    of course sometimes there are big crowds for bar mitzvahs - in our
    old building I used to deliberately not attend services if I knew
    there was a big crowd of relatives coming, so they could have seats).
    
    Anyhow, don't blame the affiliation of the synagogue for the high
    holidays policy - those things are decided by the members of the
    community, and they normally have good reaons for what they decide.
    I'd rather pay money for a seat at Rosh Hashanah (which as I said
    our congregation doesn't do, and will never do so long as the current
    members are still in the majority, from the looks of things) than
    have the synagogue run bingo games (which we don't do either),
    especially ones with a LOBSTER as the first prize (one synagogue
    near here did that once!).                   

    I used to live in New York, but it was in Queens, and we were members
    of an Orthodox shul, so I can't suggest places.  But, with two
    exceptions, every shul I have ever been to charges non-members for
    high holiday services.
    
    The first was where my Uncle used to go, in the basement of an
    apartment on the lower east side.  If you were not a member, you
    would not know of the place, much less want to go there just for
    high holiday services.  And, if you didn't go daily you would not
    be able to follow what was going on.
    
    The second is Congregation Bnai Shalom, in Westboro MA, which I
    am now a member of (and am on the religious activities committee
    and the high holiday committee).  We have open services, and don't
    charge non-members.  We typically try to give the best seats to
    members, at least if they show up on time.  We just moved into a
    new building, though.  It has more seating than the church we used
    to rent, but it is much more visible in the Jewish community.  We
    hope we can continue the open services, but if 600 people show up
    tomorrow night, we are in *DEEP* trouble.
    
    If you don't have the money to attend services, there are two things
    you can do:
    
    1.  Talk to the Rabbi, or whoever it is who makes such decisions,
    and see what they can do for you.  Nobody should be turned away
    because they can't afford it.
    
    2.  Go to an Orthodox shul, one which has tickets, but not reserved
    seats.  When they ask for your ticket, tell them you don't carry
    on the holidays.  If you do this, make sure you park several blocks
    away, and walk to the shul.  This works best if you have a beard
    and peyes.  Remember to add it to the list of things to pray for
    forgiveness for on Yom Kippur.
    
    				Paul
    

    
    Shuls are definitely not in the business of turning away potential
    members.  A very good friend of mine who lives in Florida called
    her local shul and explained to the rabbi that she just gotten a divorce
    and could not afford the $100 that a High Holiday ticket would cost
    since she is now raising her son by herself.  The rabbi told her
    not to worry about the money because a ticket would be waiting for
    her in the office.  At the same time she also explained to the rabbi
    that her son never had a bris since her husband was not Jewish,
    but now she wanted to do what was necessary because she plans to
    raise her son as a Jew.  The rabbi did a naming ceremony for her
    son.  (BTW--this was a reform shul)
    
    My point is that shul's will not turn anyone away for lack of money,
    but keep in mind they do have certain fixed upkeep costs that
    yearly membership covers.
    
    Fredda T. 

RE:  .-2


>    2.  Go to an Orthodox shul, one which has tickets, but not reserved
>    seats.  When they ask for your ticket, tell them you don't carry
>    on the holidays.  If you do this, make sure you park several blocks
>    away, and walk to the shul.  This works best if you have a beard
>    and peyes.  Remember to add it to the list of things to pray for
>    forgiveness for on Yom Kippur.
    
	I truly hope that this is intended to be "cynical", and that you 
	simply forgot the "smiley faces" here.
    
	If this is serious, I will have a great deal of trouble finding
	words to make a suitable reply with.

/don feinberg

RE:  .-.3


>            When they ask for your ticket, tell them you don't carry
>    on the holidays.

    Just make sure they don't have an eruv!

     
    8^{)	8^{)		8^{)

    Gavriel

    .7
    
    Cynical or not a point well made. No one should have to pay or have
    a ticket to enter a house of worship and to pray. 
    
    I don't mind the idea of paying to be a member or being asked to
    donate, but don't tell me how much and when to do so. If anyone
    at a temple ever asked me to "PAY TO PRAY" I'd find somewhere else
    to go after voting to remove the temple BOD.

This reply is from Jeremy (.0). He asked me to post it for him.

don feinberg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand from Don Feinberg that my note has caused some anger 
and has upset some people.  I apologize.  The purpose was to vent my own 
frustration and anger, not to create anger among others.

I have not seen the responses, as I currently cannot access HUMAN:: for 
some reason. I've asked Don to post this for me.

Some additional comments:
- Yes, there is a huge crush of celebrants at this time of year,
especially in the Reform and Reconstructionist temples.  I am one of those
who attends infrequently during the year.  However, I attend because I like
to, because I like these holidays, because it allows me to achieve a sense of
tradition - and not as a substitution for attending regular shabat services.
And, I not a "social Jew" - the service are for prayer, not networking.

- Yes, there *are* financial considerations, especially in NYC.  I
wish there were none; and I wish that the synagogue administrators would 
appreciate the financial situation of others.  Maybe a special "pay-what-you-
can" program would be appropriate?

- I chose Reform because I was raised in the Reform tradition, and because I
can't read Hebrew.  When services are at least partially conducted in English,
I feel that I get a lot more out of it. 

- I think there is an opportunity here for some enterprising individual to
create a directory of temples which can fulfil the needs of people like me;
there are many of us.  And maybe for some enterprising rabbinical students to
lead services. (Is this allowed?)


Finally: I am very sorry if I have insulted or upset anyone.  I am not sorry, 
however, to have been the source of a constructive dialectic.
 
Regards,
Jeremy.

I can sympathize with .0's feelings. We relocated to Colorado
Springs for 3 years (1981 to '84) and found a single synagogue,
serving an 800 family Jewish community in the 1/3 of a million
"greater Colorado Springs" area (except for the Air Force Academy 
synagogue, situated in --or is it 'under'?-- the very impressive
church building).

We go to services maybe twice a year, but attended soon after
arrival, to get acquainted with the congregation. A couple of days
later, we received an invitation to formally join, specifying a four
figure annual fee.

I realize that somehow, fixed expenses must be covered. All the
same, it wasn't really a question of money (though I couldn't have
possibly afforded what they wanted) - the tone of the letter turned
us totally off. We ended up going to the Air Force Academy
synagogue. It turned out to be absolutely free. 

-- Ron 

    This is obviously late for Rosh Hashanna, but I wanted to respond
    anyway.  The replies so far discuss your thoughts about the practice
    of paying for tickets for High Holidy services.  I thought you would
    be interested in some alternatives for Yom Kipper.
    
    	- Check the Hillel organization(s) at local univerities.  They
    	  almost always have services open to the community.  You may
          have to call ahead to get a ticket. (Sometimes they will ask
    	  for a donation to get the ticket; other times, they will slip
    	  a donation card into the prayer books used at the service.
          Either way, your donation can be whatever you feel comfortable
     	  with)  Hillel usually has services for all three varieties
       	  of worship.
    
    	- There must be Chaverah and/or Minyans in the area that would
    	  welcome another person to count toward the minyan.  Ask at
    	  the local reform or reconstructionist synagogue.  (I know
    	  these exist in the Boston area; New York must have them too)
    
    	- There are often independent organizations which hold services
    	  for the high holidays.  Check the local Jewish papers and
    	  ask around.  My parents go to services organized by an
    	  independent Sunday School organization.  They no longer have
    	  children in the school but always see familiar faces at the
    	  service. (Unfortunately, this is in the D.C. area and won't
    	  help you much)
    
    Hope this has helped.  You shouldn't miss Kol Nidre because you
    don't have a ticket.
    
    _Susan
    
    

Harvard Hillel requires tickets (or student ID) for Reform and Conservative
services.  They suggest $75/ticket for the non-Harvard community.

I don't know the policy at Brandeis or the other local schools.

Martin.

                This one  got to me.  My first note in months.  I 
                tend to agree  with  .0  :  No Jew (or anyone for 
                that matter) should have to pay to pray.
                
                My  experiences  in  various   moves  around  New 
                England  have  all  been  similar.     Big  Bucks 
                Required.
                
                In Lawrence, Ma, I could not  enroll  my children 
                in  Hewbrew  School  unless  I was a  high-paying 
                member.
                
                In 1974, when my wife was in the hospital for one 
                month with a 50-50 chance, I was about to lose my 
                job  for  being  at  home  taking  care of my two 
                pre-school children.  After  dozens  of  call  to 
                United Way organizations (and being  turned  down 
                by all due to lack to  available  people to watch 
                my children while I worked), I finally called the 
                Jewish  Family  Service.  They wanted $150.00 per 
                week  for  someone  to  baby-sit  (no  meals,  no 
                extra's of anykind).    I  explained  that I only 
                made  $200.00/week at that  time  and  could  not 
                afford that price.  Response:  I'm sorry, we have 
                a waiting list of people who can pay.
                
                I have contributed neither to United  Way  or any 
                local schul since.  But I still  love G-d, and he 
                still loves me.
                
                Warren (who may also have an attitude problem)

    Re: .7  I don't usually use smiley faces.  I didn't think anyone
    would take such a suggestion seriously.
    
    It is also slightly incorrect. Lying to get into the shul is an
    offense against the congregation, and praying on Yom Kippur won't take
    care of it unless you first ask forgiveness from the people you
    wronged.
    
    L'shona Tova, and if I have offended anyone in this notesfile I
    hereby ask forgiveness.
    
    				Paul
    

Re: .13

    I checked  with  Brandeis,  they require tickets, with a suggested
    donation of $75. I don't know whether they will accept less.  

    The last  open  services I know of are at Yale, where they ask you
    to  send  a donation, but by no means require it (unless you go to
    the  break  fast,  in  which  case you are expected to pay for the
    meal, after the holiday of course.)

--David

    I agree that "no Jew should have to pay to pray."  If, however, a
    Jew wants: to pray among others,
               a well lit and heated or cooled room,
               a siddur available,
               a torah scroll or two,
               someone to help lead prayers, and
               sermons to complain about :^)
        someone has to pay.
    
    
    I have NEVER heard of a Synogogue that would not grant memberships at
    reduced rates (or for nothing) if there was a real financial need. Many
    assess fees on a percentage of income. The same holds true for Day
    Schools. (I am on the scholarship committee of a local day school and
    can attest that NO ONE is turned away because they can not pay.) 
    
    When I was a grad student, I paid a nominal seat fee for the holidays.
    When I married and had a low wages job, my dues were reduced.  My cost
    for the JCC day camp for my children was discounted because of my
    circumstances, also. That was years ago and we pay full price thanks
    to DIGITAL...and I'm happy to be able to do it.
    
    I don't begrudge my shul its membership dues, its seat fees, or
    its various fundraising events.  I use it, and know it's value to
    me and my family.
    
    I think that the real problem is that many Jews do not value the
    spiritual infrastructure of the community--the shuls, schools, mikvehs,
    etc.-- and do not wish to support them. However, these same people
    insist that these be available at little or no cost for their sporatic
    use. When people want to do that at my health/fitness club, they
    are asked to pay a guest fee--much higher than the prorated daily
    member's fee.
    
    We are all familiar with services being available for us for "nothing."
    The library, public museums, parks,zoos, MDC pools, golf courses, etc.
    But we do pay for them through taxes.  There is no longer the "Kehilla" 
    structure to secure these "taxes" for the Jewish community. We are
    all responsible...if we want them to continue.
    
    The response by the Jewish Family and Children's Service to the problem
    in .14 was unconscionable and the CJP office should have been
    contacted...and a letter to the editor to the "Jewish Advocate" would
    have brought some attention to the issue.
    
    
     
    
               

    I used to go to Harvard Hillel for high holidays, as a non-member
    of the university community.  Tickets were required, but they were
    "free" on request, until they ran out.  Of course you were given
    an envelope with which to mail a donation, but they were never pushy
    about it (as these things go) and it was truly voluntary.

    I agree with Avram.  At my synagogue, tickets start at $25.  Students
    are less, often free.  Anyone who really cannot afford to pay is
    given tickets.
    
    It's a matter of available space, and of paying to support the building
    and the clergy.  You never have to pay to pray.  You can pray anywhere,
    anytime, and G-d is always listening.  But to support the institution
    and the building, SOMEBODY has to pay.  Is it right for those who
    come only once a year to expect the rest of the congregation to
    grant him/her a free seat at their expense?  Where will you find
    a seat if everyone expects the same?  The synagogue will be boarded
    up.  
    
    Synagogues are buildings with leaky roofs and plumbing, just like
    anyone else's house.  Clergy are people with families and rent or
    mortgages just like anyone else.  God doesn't have the overhead,
    and stands ready to meet with you anywhere.
    
    So next year, please buy a seat and join not only in the community
    praying, but also in the community support of a vital community
    institution.  So that it will be there for you the following year
    as well.
    
    Shalom.
    Joyce
    

    re:.18 and Harvard Hillel
    
    As I understand it, most services do not require tickets, etc.:
    you want to go, you go.  The main exception (these past several
    years, anyway) is Kol Nidra, which *requires* a ticket, and tickets
    are very hard to get at the last minute.  One is *supposed* to pay
    $75 per ticket for the first evening service -- I don't think
    entry is restricted for the second day.  (I think students can
    go without charge.)  I am quite sure that if someone really wanted
    to go, but could not afford all or any of the "fee", Rabbi Gold
    would be happy to give a ticket anyway.  But you'd have to make
    the effort to speak with him, which seems fair enough.             
    
    	Penelope

re: Harvard Hillel:

If you are a student, or have a ticket, you walk right in.  If you
don't have a ticket, you wait until all ticketed have been seated,
then you are welcome to the remaining space.  For Yom Kippur eve,
there are two Conservative services, one starting at 6:00 and the
other at 6:30.  Lois (forgot her last name) is the cantor at the
early service; Rabbi Gold speaks to both.

Tickets are not needed for other services.

While the Harvard Hillel service is intended for students, the
community is quite diverse, including many faculty and staff.
Rabbi Gold's sermons are always interesting.  During the morning
service, he does not speak, but enters into a discussion with
the congregation.

Martin.

    I'm a member of a havurah. We have the same discussion every year
    (I know- I'm president this year, and have been a trustee since
    day 1). We used to tell outside guests that a donation would be
    appreciated, and at one time we suggested the amount. We don't even
    do that any more,  although a donation is certainly appreciated.
    
    We have always agreed that we would never turn anyone away because
    they couldn't afford to donate something for high holy day services,
    or even membership.
    
    OK, so we're very noble. The other side of the coin is that the
    same people bear the burdens of financing a cantor for the high
    holy days, a teacher, and whatever else we provide. The same people
    also provide the time, labor and love to keep it going. The same
    holds true of more "establishment" congregations of whatever flavor.
    So when someone wants to show up 3 or 4 times a year, especially
    when everyone else wants to show up, it's not surprising that they
    are asked to, or expected to, contribute to an institution they
    want to take advantage of.
    
    By the way, the base note was posted in the LOCAL notes file in
    New York, and generated a number of heated replies of one sort or
    another. Some of what took place earlier in _this_ conference was
    bad enough, but speaking for myself, I found similar discussion
    in a very "public" conference thoughtless, tasteless and offensive.
    I wouldn't say that there to avoid aggravating the situation, but
    I'll say it here.
    
    I hope everyone has a good year and fasted well.
    
    - Richard

    Big business or no, an experience my son had recently shows that
    all is not lost.
    
    He's an Air Force pilot trainee stationed in Del Rio, TX.  When
    he informed me that he had obtained leave for Yom Kippur and was
    going to seek out a synagogue in San Antonio, 180 miles away, I
    was, at once, both elated and skeptical.
    
    He looked in the Yellow Pages for a Temple Beth El, thinking that
    it would be conservative as others by that name he had known in
    New Jersey.  He found one.  Arrived at 8:30; no fee; prayed until
    10:30 when they cleared out the auditorium (reformed, naturally)
    for the second group of congregants.
    
    A gentleman noted his displeasure and offered to take him to an
    orthodox shul to which he also belonged, his reformed membership
    being in acquiescence to his wife.  My son accepted the invitation,
    also fee free, and had a wonderfully satisfying experience.
    
    Also, two services for the price of one - nil.
    
    /Ed