Conference taveng::bagels

I think it's inappropriate there, and I think it would be inappropriate
here.  About one year ago, a job offering was posted in the Christian
notesfile.  At that time, it was pointed out that such postings are
directly contrary to Digital's policies and procedures.

In defense of the Womannotes posting, it should be pointed out that
Women are an affermative-action category.  I don't think that Jews
qualify as such.

Martin.

    I , personnally would have no problem with a jobs posting here.
    
    BUT (paranoia on full) remember, we Jews are not an "official"
    minority. As word gets out, there will probably be some flack about
    it.
    
    Rich
    

The following is taken from the introductory note to this conference.

>	This file will contain those topics that pertain to:
>
>		 o	Judaism
>		 o	Israel
>		 o	Hebrew/Yiddish Languages	
>		 o	Modern/Ancient Jewish Life/Laws
>		 o	Current Political Issues
>		 o	Food (mmmmm....)
> ...
>
> Statement of Policy:
>
> ...
>		o	I will delete any note that I find:
>
>...
>			-	Not pertaining to the original intended
>				content of this file;

In general, job postings would appear to be subject to deletion.  I think
that the policy is a sensible one, and also see no reason why job postings
should be added to the list of topics.

    I would be interested in hearing about job openings in Israel. 
    I'm sure DEC would like to keep (if possible) any employees who
    wish to make aliyah, and job postings here would benefit those
    of us (outside of Israel, naturally) who might be considering
    aliyah.
    
    I don't think that the average position warrants posting here.
    
    Dave

    I agree with .-1.  Since we don't have overseas postings in the
    Digital Jobs book, I don't see any reason why if some Bagel-Noter
    knew of a job opportunity in Israel they couldn't let people know
    about it in the Bagels notes file.  I don't feel that this is in
    any way discriminatory.  The Bagels notes file is open to all who
    might have interest.

    As long as the hiring manager doesn't discriminate by posting their
    position only in the Bagels notes file, I don't see any problem.    
    It is the hiring managers responsibility to make the job posting
    public through their local personnel group.  Some managers also
    use the JOBS notes file.
    
    By the way, do any of our Israeli correspondents know the name
    of the VTX server in Israel?
   
    /Sam

re: .5
Perhaps the simplest solution to the "Jobs in Israel" issue would be
for someone in Dec Israel to post the name of a person to contact if
one is interested in emigrating, at which point the matching of
skills and tasks could be done outside of a notesfile. (Or, of course,
a pointer to the Israeli JOBS notesfile/database.)

Having emigrated (or is it immigrated?) within Dec, my experience was
that the right way to do this is:

1. discuss your goals with your local, current, manager.

2. together with your manager, contact someone in the remote office
   who will help setup interviews.

3. get a bunch of interviews lined up in all of the groups you might
   usefully contribute to.

4. interview and -- again, involving your local manager -- select the
   best offer from what is available to you.

5. get the two managers to work out the details of the transfer.

6. if you're moving internationally, you might make things easier if
   you take all your vacation time before starting in the new office.
   (This might be something to bring up when talking to your new boss.)

7. understand that an international move probably costs Dec $30,000
   in travel and shipping expenses.

Of course, this assumes that you have a good relation with your current
organization.

Martin.

    re: jobs in Israel
    
    Martin's reply was very succinct in listing the procedures for making
    a possible international move.  However I think another qualifier
    should be included, and that is that jobs aren't so plentiful in
    DEC-Israel as I found out in an abrupt fashion.  At the moment there
    are many more domestic applicants (and very qualified ones at that!) than
    there are positions.
    
    At the risk of being presumptious, I think some of us assumed that
    because Israel is just "dying" for Americans with computer skills to 
    come over , than getting a job there must be a cinch.  This just
    ain't so.
    
    What would be more helpful to all of us is to have some one enter a
    note describing the organization of ISO, groups and their description,
    needs for koach-adam (manpower) if any, etc. 
    
    There are many more companies in Israel who may have more pressing
    personnel needs that can't be filled domestically.  It might be
    worth your while to make contact with them, that is if you can "bear"
    the thought of leaving DEC.  However this isn't so easy, and I think
    this is commented on in an earlier note.
    
    One other thing, have any of you considered the implications of
    Aliyah?  Have you heard of Temporary Resident status?  Israel is
    not exactly the place to jump into point blank, especially from
    this culture.  It can either make you a more well-rounded person/Jew
    or eat you alive.
    
    David  

    David has explained the matter VERY clearly; particularly para 2
    should be heeded. So many people have gone (back) to Israel (myself
    included) believing that all you have to do is present yourself
    to get a job not realising that thousands of young israelis just
    out of the army are also competing for jobs.
    I would just like to add my 2 c. Please stay away from defense related
    jobs (IAI,El Op etc...) since most of the time they will not inform
    you that they can't take you unless you have lived in the country
    for a given period of time. You go through the interview, then the
    security clearance and then it's a dark hole. DEC is amongst the
    top companies in terms of salaries and as such has many more applicants
    than it has job openings (a recent opening at the VLSI center generated
    over 200 applicants!). If you have any friends/relatives in Israel
    USE them, they know the system much better than you and can cut
    through some of the red tape, but most of all arm yourself with
    LOTS of patience because contrary to your "belief" Israel's survival
    does not hinge on you getting the job :^)

.8>    Please stay away from defense related
.8>    jobs (IAI,El Op etc...) since most of the time they will not inform
.8>    you that they can't take you unless you have lived in the country
.8>    for a given period of time. You go through the interview, then the
.8>    security clearance and then it's a dark hole.

I have not worked in defence-related industries, but I have friends who
have, and I do know that the security requirements vary.

     -	Some jobs will be open to an immigrant who stepped off the plane
	2 weeks ago.

     -	Some require citizenship, which for a male immigrant under the age
	of forty-something means that you've already gone through the army.

     -	A few will be reluctant to take you if you weren't born in Israel.

A great many computer-related jobs here are in the defence industries, and
ruling them out from the start will leave you with fewer opportunities to
choose from.  I suppose that there are managers there who will mislead an
applicant about security procedures, but there are managers in every area
who will mislead applicants about something.  All that you can do is to try
to identify such people as early as possible, so as to avoid wasting your
time on them.  You probably don't want to work for them, anyhow.

If you apply to IAI (Israel Aircraft Industries), security clearance may
be less of a problem than the recent decision to cancel the Lavi.  They
will be laying off a lot of people during the coming months.  Still, it's
not impossible that there are groups within IAI who are looking to hire;
it's a big place.

    I can only quote from my experience in that I went and had interviews
    in several defense related firms (IAI, Techem...) in 1982, in one
    case I had a WRITTEN {can you beleive that?} job offer pending
    bitachon,I'm still awaiting their decission.
    
    The other point is that very few people will give you a job offer
    whilst you are living in the US or wherever and are canvassing for
    a job during your holidays. If you don't speak Hebrew they expect
    you to go to Ulpan for n months, the approach of working and going
    to night school to learn Hebrew is not well received. The answer
    has always been (of the 17 firms I visited) come to Israel and we'll
    see. It's difficult to tell them that coming from overseas with
    the financial burden etc... that entails you would like a little
    commitment and in writing! Assume you meet a prospective employer,
    he tells you no problem when you get here just ask for Moshe. You
    get  there, Moshe is in milhouim, his secretary is off pregnant
    and noone has heard of you!
    
    The issue as to whether certain jobs are available to new olim in
    defense related industries may be true, the bitachon clearance which
    you will have to go through will take several months and until then
    you wait!

    
    A friend active in Student Coalition for Soviet Jewry passed on
    this request:
    
    Sasha (Alexander) Katz is a recently released Soviet refusenik, now
    living in Los Angeles.  He was Senior Programmer/analyst at the
    Moscow Computer Center, where he programmed financial systems in
    IBM COBOL, developed statistical analysis systems utilizing FORTRAN,
    maintained an RSX-11M Operating System for the DEC PDP-11, and wrote
    utilities and real-time applications in microassembler.
    
    He is desperately searching for a job.  Anybody have any tips for
    him?  You can write him directly at 9030 Alcott Street, Los Angeles
    90035, (213) 550-1048.  Thanks for any help.