Conference taveng::bagels

    
    The Vatican has maintained diplomatic relations with
    various 'self-declared-non-democratic" governments 
    throughout the world, including various other smaller
    middle-eastern countries with heads of state known
    as Shah's.  Meanwhile, they have not with Israel
    which is a self-declared Democratic state.  Why not?

    Inquiring Jews want to know.

       re .1:
       
       > including various other smaller middle-eastern countries with
       > heads of state known as Shah's. 
       
       Please, let us all in on the secret -- give us an example of
       a 'smaller middle-eastern country with head of state known
       as Shah'.
       
       --Mr Topaz 

    RE: 0
    
    At the very minimum, the official recognition by the Church of the
    State of Israel.  After forty years of hard-won existence, it's
    time the Church officially accepted that existence!
    

    Perhaps part of the recognition issue springs from the need for
    Jews to feel that the last vestiges of official Anti-Semitism are
    gone. This may be too much to ask, but recognition of a legitimate
    state by the Vatican would certainly go a long way towards convincing
    Jews around the world that the Vatican isn't just paying lip service
    to the Anti-Semitism problem. I certainly am not aware of any other
    legitimate state that the Vatican has refused to have relations
    with, and they certainly have given more political recognition to
    the PLO than Israel. Hardly a balanced stand.
    
    Jack

    RE: .4
    Nicely stated, Jack.
    

    Actually, for such a large business as the Vatican, i'm
    very surprised much of their diplomatic relations aren't brought
    to light more often instead of covered by the "religious umbrella".

    PS:	Hey Topaz, your replies to my notes are as much fun as waking up in the
    morning and scooping the dead fish out of my aquarium.  In fact,
    if I used a hook to get them out, instead of a net, the similarity
    would be incredible!

    What???
    
    To be absolved from blame in the killing of Christ, and having Israel
    recognized as a country worthy enough to have diplomatic relations
    with, and it's even run by JEWS!!
    
    And all this within a time span of 40 to 50 years? 
    
    The mind boggles at what might be next.
    
        Alan
    

       To answer some of the questions implied in .0, let's not forget
       that some of the most fundamental relations between the Jewish and
       Roman Catholic communities are on the personal and local level,
       between individuals, or between local rabbis and RC clergy. There
       is certainly no thought of trying to reconcile theological
       differences, such as two Protestant sects might try to do in order
       to unite their membership.  From a political point of view, the
       Vatican is not really a country by any accepted standard so I
       don't see the big deal about establishing relations with it. 
       
       It's all a question of perception: many Jews perceive that there
       are some anti-Semitic elements in parts of the RC Church (e.g.,
       Roman Catholic countries made a habit of kicking the Jews out in
       the 15th C., then more recently the Church was perceived as not
       being particularly anti-Nazi in WWII and then the Pope agreed to
       receive Waldheim).  Presumably, the main purpose of the meeting
       between the Pope and some Jewish leaders would be to reduce or
       eliminate that perception.
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       p.s., re .6:  The ad hominem attack in lieu of an answer to the
       question posed in .2 does little to change your image. 

    The questions you have raised are interesting ones, and
    I can appreciate the political significance of such recognition
    in your minds. I, too, would like to know why the Vatican has
    been so selective.
    
    However, on the other side of the coin, I'm wondering whether
    the significance of the Vatican (power, importance) is not
    overrated a bit? The Vatican represents the Catholic church
    *only* (only about half of the Christian world) and membership is 
    dwindling. Catholic conversions are down from 5 per 1,000 members 
    to something like 1 per 1,000 (annual figures reported in a recent
    news article). Reasons for the Pope's extensive travel is for the purpose 
    of "uniting the flock" (which is has become fragmented due to 
    disagreements and dissention in the ranks).
    
    If the recognition is important to Jews, I hope it happens. I only 
    hope the issue doesn't attribute more importance to the Pope and the 
    Vatican than they have or *deserve*. 
    
    Just a non-Vatican variety Christian trying to keep a balanced 
    perspective... ;-)
    
    Irena                                 
    

    re: -1
    
    You are probably correct in your estimations.  But I've seen the
    Vatican's influence in many countries, and my opinion they are a
    powerful state (not that they have an army, etc., but other means).
    
    David
    
    

    It would mean more to me if Cardinal Law or others
    at his level would publicly speak.  My impression
    is that if the Pope acknowledges certain specifics
    regarding Israel, then it will trickle down for to
    think as the Pope does is concidered 'right'.

    PS:	Does anyone require an explanation as 
    to my implied meaning in reply number 2?

    RE: .9
    
    Irena, I can think of a couple of reasons that recognition by
    the Vatican may be perceived as a "milestone". You've stated
    (correctly, I'm sure) that the Pope represents the religion of
    one-half the world's Christian. But that's part of the issue;
    when dealing with Catholicism, there is theoretically only ONE
    person who speaks for the Church. With the various non-Catholic
    denominations of Christianity, there is not just one person, 
    alone, who can collectively speak for this population.
    
    Perhaps, and this is just a gut-level feeling, Jews who have read
    about the tortures inflicted on their brethren in the Middle Ages
    via the Inquisition, in the name of the Catholic Church, can take
    some solace in knowing that their right to be Jewish is finally
    accepted by Rome.
    
       Alan
    

    
    As jews, we don't need to wait for the Vatican recognition, but...
    
    The Vatican is a special country without army, indusry. But it has
    another important weapon : Its moral message.
    
    The voice of the Vatican is very important. Just remember the success
    of all the Pope trips around the world.
    
    So the recognition of Israel by the Vatican isn't a business issue.
    It is a propaganda issue. Israel (not the jews of the Golah) needs
    this recognition for its pilitical struggle. The israeli state needs
    the sympathy of the christian world and the most important christian
    leader lives in the Vatican.
    
    But the recognition of Israel by the Vatican is an issue between
    Israel and the Vatican. The attitude of jews of the Gola can be
    different. We must not forget the meeting between the Pope and
    Waldheim. So if I were a US jewish leader, I would have refused
    to meet with the friend of Waldheim. And really I do not understand
    this meeting. If some one can explain to me ?
    
    Shalom
    Henry-Michel, Paris
    

    You'll probably get a similiar reason as the reasons
    for RR visiting German Troop's cemeteries.

    I can't help but put in my $1.30 cdn ($1 us) worth.
    It really pisses me off when our so called Jewish leaders go and
    kiss ass to someone who doesn't give a damn anyway. Are they trying
    to solicite UJA donations from the Pope who is the leader of the
    richest organization in the world.

    So, skimming through these replies , I find some common
    thoughts (see if I'm correct): the need for recognition is
    political; it's the principle of the thing; it has something
    to do with a sense of vindication; and, it is seen as carrying
    some weight to influence others... I don't question the validity
    of any of these points.
    
    re: .11 Agreed. I do think Cardinal Law could do much for the
    cause. I'm not sure he's permitted to speak out on the matter, however.
    
    re: .7 & .12 - Alan, (sigh!)
    
     [ No flame :-) ]  Forgive me, but it pains me to hear you say that 
     Christians "blame Jews for killing Christ". There is no one deserving 
     of the name "Christian" that would feel that way! That's an unfair 
     generalization and I don't care to be painted with that brush... 
     although I can empathize with your feelings. 
    
     However (and I say this gently and lovingly), enlightened Christians 
     *do not* feel that way, for our faith is in a *living* Christ who 
     willingly gave up his life and rose again. I will say no more on that here. If you would
     like additional clarification, I would be glad to provide it offline.
                                 
     re: your other comments...It is unfortunate that there is no one
     official to speak for all non-Catholics, but there are some very
     influential leaders among the other denominations. I'm not aware
     of it, but perhaps Jewish leaders have met with some of these in
     the past. Of course, it would not have commanded the media attention that
     a meeting with the Pope does. (For example, whatever one may
     think of Jerry Falwell, he is extremely influential in fundamental
     and political circles. And, he regularly speaks out on, and urges
     broad based support for, Israel and Jews.)
    
    re: .13 Henry-Michel,
    
    If the Jewish perception is that the Pope is the most important
    Christian leader, then the need is there for Jews to deal with the
    Pope. But, try to take for a moment a slightly different perspective
    (non-Catholic), then your perception of the Pope's influence may
    change a bit too. To put it simply, *my* attitudes will not be changed
    one bit by anything the Pope says or does. I don't speak for all
    non-Catholic Christians, but I suspect the same may be true for
    many of them, also. 
    
    He will play a part in changing *many but not all* Catholic attitudes 
    because he is a charismatic and popular Catholic leader (a likeable
    chap - even *I* like him a little!), probably the most accessible and 
    available Pope in the history of the Catholic church. However, among 
    Catholics today much of what he pronounces is questioned, and the Catholic
    church is in a state of change. In fact, the complexion of Christianity
    has changed. 
    
    Why do you feel that the Pope meeting with Waldheim makes him a
    friend of Waldheim? A meeting by itself does not make friends. No more 
    than when two political or government leaders meet, e.g. the 
    Stalin/Hitler meeting (when Hitler sold out my country) did not
    make the two "friends"...  
    
    The Pope meets with many different people. If he were to pass
    judgements, he most likely would have *very few* meetings at all!
    :-)
                                       
    I understand the meeting that just took place yesterday between Jewish
    leaders and the Pope was a positive step toward "smoothing the way"
    for upcoming meetings during the Pope's tour of the US.
    
    I shall follow those with interest.
    
    Thanks, all, for sharing your views with me, and broadening *my*
    perspective.
    
    Irena
    
                                                                    

    One point not considered in all of the previous replies-
     
    We Jews have been _strangers in a strange land_ for about 2000 years.
    No matter what country we lived in, sooner or later we became
    "unwelcome". Like any human being, we need to feel accepted, hence
    the desire for recognition by the Vatican/Pope. As was pointed out,
    the Catholics are only 1/2 of all Christians, but that's a big chunk
    of recognition in one shot!
    
    Also, there's always the chance that when things turn nasty for
    us, at least we will "have it in writing" from the Pope. (But then
    again, the British wrote the Balfour Declaration....)
    
    Rich

    re: part of .16
    
    Stalin did not meet Hitler.  Molotov met Von Ribbentrop, the "deal"
    was hashed out at the ministerial level.
    
    I wouldn't recomend Jerry Falwell as a Christian leader for Jews
    to rely on.  Despite his support for Israel (strictly for ideological
    reasons), he is the same man who voiced that "G-d does not hear
    the prayers of a Jew".
    
    The Pope stated that the question of diplomatic recognition to Israel
    was a theological one.  That's funny, theology hasn't prevented
    the Vatican from recognizing the other countries in the Middle East.
    
    David

    RE: .13
    Just a quick question...I don't know the meaning of the word "GOLAH".
    
    Does it have the same meaning as "DIASPORA"?
    
    Thank you,
    Bob
    

    re: .19
    
    YES

    .11
    
    You may have noticed that Cardinal Law is one of the most ecumenical
    and devote when it comes to his views on the subject. Also having
    Cardinal Law in Boston speaks to having a greater infulence on the
    Pope from a bottoms up approach.
    
    

	RE: .18
    
>    The Pope stated that the question of diplomatic recognition to Israel
>    was a theological one.

	According to the official communique (published in the NY Times,
	of 2 Aug)

	"Representatives of the Holy See declared that there exist no
	theological reasons in Catholic doctrine that would inihibit
	such relations, but noted that there do exist some serious and
	unresolved problems in the area."

 .17
    
    Why do we care / does it matter, what the pope thinks? If his views
    are based on (are those of?) Catholicism then for the Jewish people
    and Israel they hold no importance. It is only that the pope has
    a special significance in the Catholic church. If I'm correct, his
    word is taken as that of G-d. Now G-d is meant to be perfect,
    everlasting and doesn't change. It is here that I find difficulties
    if todays pope can't recognise the hurt, harm and injustice that
    was done in his name during past periods. If he has difficulty
    in expressing regret at what happened, and even state that it was
    sinful, then how can I other than believe that the church (Catholic)
    approved and would do so again.
    
    Malcolm
    

    re: .22
    
    It was stated during a news broadcast on NPR that the Pope said
    that the question of diplomatic recognition was a theological one.
    That's what I heard, right or wrong.
    
    Actually I read where the Vatican doesn't have formal diplomatic
    relations with Jordan either, but I know for a fact that the they're
    REALLY tight with the Jordanians.
    
    David

    A pointer to Christian conference note 175.8...
    
    The text of the Catholic/Jewish joint communique, issued at the
    conclusion of the meetings between the Pope and Vatican Aides and
    the International Jewish Committee on Interreligious Consultations
    has been entered in that note.  (Reprinted from the New York Times,
    September 2, 1987, page A17)
    
    It's a very positive communique. I think you'd be interested.  
    
    I'd copy it for you into this conference, if only I knew how. But,
    you can slip in and out off IOSG::CHRISTIAN to read it, and no one
    will know you've been there! :-)                             
    
    Irena
    

    Would you please post it here, i've been into the
    CHRISTIAN conference and don't, honestly, fell very
    welcome there.

    re: .26
    
    Ok, then...
    
    If someone can tell me how to copy the text of this official
    joint communique (issued by both the Vatican and the Jewish
    delegation) from one conference into another, I'd be happy
    to do it for you. 
    
    If you're interested, that is.
    
    Irena
    
    
    

    
    	
    	Open Christian [Oxymoron?]
    	{enter note number you wish to extract}
    	Extract Text.txt
    	Open BAGELS [Get Cream Cheese]
    	354
    	REply
    	[hit the DO key]
    	INCLUDE TEXT.TXT
    	
    
    Viola!
    
    

               <<< IOSG::LIB0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                    -< The New Christian Notes Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 175.8                      Jews and the Pope                         8 of 8
FDCV13::PAINTER                                     182 lines  11-SEP-1987 00:01
                           -< The Joint Communique >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


{From: "The New York Times", New York, Wednesday, September 2, 1987, pA17}

Text of Catholic-Jewish Communique
----------------------------------

Special to The New York Times

ROME, Sept. 1 - Following is the text of a joint communique issued today at 
the conclusion of meetings by Pope John Paul II and Vatican aides with the 
International Jewish Committee on Interreligious Consultations.

				I

Representatives of the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations With 
the Jews and of the International Jewish Committee on Interreligious 
Consultations met in Rome on Monday, Aug. 31, 1987.  The meeting was joined 
by a representative of the Council for Public Affairs of the Church.  The 
meeting was described by its co-sponsors as part of an ongoing process in 
response to difficulties which have risen in the relationship in recent 
months.  The agenda for the meeting included the Shoah (Holocaust), 
contemporary anti-Semitism, Catholic teaching on Jews and Judaism, and 
relations between the Holy See and the state of Israel.  The discussion was 
open and free, and all issues were discussed in candor and friendship.

In the discussion of the Shoah, the Catholic delegations recalled the 
importance of Pope John Paul II's moving statement in Warsaw on June 14, 
1987; his letter to Archbishop John May, president of the National 
Conference of Catholic Bishops (U.S.A.) of Aug. 8, 1987, and the decision 
to discuss the Shoah "in its religious and historical perspectives" at the 
next meeting of the International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee in 
Washington, D.C., in December 1987.

Church Plans a Document

In the context of the discussion on the moral implications of the Shoah, 
the delegations explained their different perception of the papal audience 
with President Kurt Waldheim.  The Jewish delegations expressed its dismay 
and concern over the moral problems raised for the Jewish people by the 
audience.  The Catholic delegation acknowledged the seriousness of and the 
church's sensitivity to those Jewish concerns, and set forth the serious 
reasons behind the judgment of the Holy See.

Cardinal John Willebrands, president of the Commission for Religious 
Relations With the Jews, announced the intention of the commission to 
prepare an official Catholic document on the Shoah, the historical 
background of anti-Semitism and its contemporary manifestations.

The Jewish delegation warmly welcomed this initiative and expressed the 
conviction that such a document will contribute significantly to combating 
attempts to revise and to deny the reality of Shoah and to trivialize its 
religious significance for Christians, Jews and humanity.

It was also noted that Nazi ideology was not only anti-Semitic but also 
profoundly demonic and anti-Christian.

The delegation received reports on the current state of anti-Semitism in 
various countries and expressed concern over recent manifestations of 
anti-Semitism and also of anti-Catholicism.  The group called for an 
intensification of existing efforts to counter religious and cultural 
prejudice.

The Israeli Recognition Issue

The Jewish delegation expressed the concern of world Jewry at the absence 
of full diplomatic relations between the Holy See and the state of Israel.  
Representatives of the Holy See declared that there exist no theological 
reasons in Catholic doctrine that would inhibit relations, but noted that 
there do exist some serious unresolved problems in the area.

In view of recent controversies and to avoid future misunderstandings, 
Cardinal Willebrands envisaged the development of a special mechanism that 
would more closely follow trends and concerns within the world Jewish 
community and improve contacts and collaboration where the need arises, 
including contacts with the Secretariat of State.  The Jewish delegation 
in turn committed itself to adapt its own structures as appropriate.

On the issue of the presentation of Judaism in Catholic teaching and 
preaching, the Jewish group expressed gratification for progress made over 
the years.  The Catholic side acknowledged that much further work still 
needs to be done to implement the Second Vatican Council and subsequent 
official statements within the life of the church.

The Jewish delegation declared strong opposition to any and all 
anti-Catholic manifestations and pledged itself to join with Catholics in 
opposing them.

				II

On Tuesday morning, the Jewish delegation met with Cardinal Agostino 
Casaroli, Secretariat of State.  In this cordial meeting various concerns 
were discussed.

It was agreed that as occasions require, in areas which are of concern to 
the world Jewish community and where religious and political issues 
intertwine, future exchanges between I.J.C.I.C and the Secretariat of State 
will be possible from time to time.

Regarding the state of Israel, the Cardinal stated that while diplomatic 
relations have not been "perfected", there do exist good relations on many 
levels including official visits to the Holy See by Israeli leaders.

				III

At noon on Tuesday, the participants were received at the Castel Gandolfo 
by His Holiness John Paul II.  The meeting took the form of a free and open 
conversation among those present.  The participants expressed themselves 
fully on all the issues that had been discussed on the previous day.

The Jewish delegates expressed their appreciation for this unusual meeting, 
and also their concerns and hopes for the future.  The Pope welcomed the 
Jewish delegation as representatives of Jewish people, to whom the 
existence of Israel is central.

The Pope affirmed the importance of the proposed Shoah and anti-Semitism 
for the church and for the world.  The Pope spoke of his personal 
experience in Poland and his memories of living close to a Jewish community 
now destroyed.  He recalled his recent spontaneous address to the Jewish 
community in Warsaw, in which he spoke of the Jewish people as a force of 
conscience in the world today and of Jewish memory of the Shoah as a 
"warning, a witness and a silent cry" to all humanity.

Citing the Exodus of the Jewish people from Egypt as a paradigm, and a 
continuing source of hope, the Pope movingly expressed his deep conviction 
that, with God's help, evil can be overcome in history, even the awesome 
evil of the Shoah.

End of Communique.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those Who Attended Talks
========================

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, Sept. 1 - Following is a list of the Jewish and 
Roman Catholic participants in two days of meetings that culminated in 
talks with Pope John Paul II here today:

Jewish Participants
-------------------

- Rabbi Mordecai Waxman, chairman, International Jewish Committee for
  				   for Interreligious Consultations
- Dr. Gerhart M. Riegner, co-chairman, Governing Board, World Jewish
				   Congress (Geneva, Switzerland)
- Rabbi Gilbert Klaperman, president, Synagogue Council of America
- Rabbi Alexander Schindler, president, Synagogue Council of America
- Rabbi Marc H. Tanenbaum, director of international relations, American
				   Jewish Committee.
- Dr. Geoffrey Wigoder, Israel Interfaith Committee, Jerusalem.
- Seymour d. Reich, international president, B'nai B'rith.
- Rabbi Leon Klenicki, director of interfaith affairs, Anti-Defamation
				   League of B'nai B'rith.
- Dr. Henry Siegman, executive director, American Jewish Congress.


Catholic Participants
---------------------

- His Eminence Johannes Cardinal Willebrands, president of the 
				   Commission for Religious Relations
				   with the Jews.
- The Very Rev. Father Pierre Duprey, vice president of the Commission
				   for Religious Relations with the Jews.
- Father Pier Francesco Fumagalli, secretary of the Commission for 
				   Religious Relations with the Jews.
- The Most Rev. William H. Keeler, Bishop of Harrisburg, chairman of the
				   Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and
				   Interreligious Affairs of the National
				   Conference of Catholic Bishops in U.S.A.
- Msgr. Luigi Gatti, Council for Public Affairs of the Church.
- Dr. Eugene Fisher, executive secretary, Secretariat for Catholic-Jewish
				   relations, National Conference of 
				   Catholic Bishops, U.S.A.
- The Most Rev. Jorge M. Mejia, vice president of the Pontifical 
				   Commission "Justice and Peace," 
				   consultor of the Commission for 	
				   Religious Relations with the Jews.
- Msgr. John A. Radano, delegate of the Secretariat for Promoting Christian
				   Unity.
- Msgr. Eric Salzmann, official of the Secretariat for Promoting Christian
				   Unity.

    .26
    
    I don't understand why you would not feel welcome in the Christian
    conference. I like to and do read it regularly so that I can form
    a less biased opinion a various issues.
    
    It is also good to hear what others are saying as opposed to
    speculation as to what is said.