Conference taveng::bagels

    
    Or maybe it's not a Mr. Bernstein at all but someone
    using and obviously Jewish sir-name for politically
    subversive reasons.

    
    >Or maybe it's not a Mr. Bernstein at all but someone
    >using and obviously Jewish sir-name for politically
    >subversive reasons.

    Come on now Mike, I'm enough of a realist to believe that Mr. Bernstein
    is Jewish, and being a "local yokel", I know the migration patterns of
    Boston area Jews.  Mattapan/Dorchester south to Milton, Stoughton, etc.

    Intolerance is becoming an acquired taste both in Israel and in the 
    diaspora.  Only problem is that it flies in the face of our heritage.

    David     

   "Here we see Jim following the Southern Migration pattern
    of the Commonwealth Jews."

    Next on Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom...

    re: -1
    
    I don't think I meant this subject to be one of ridicule or
    foolishness.  Your wacked-out theory that Mr. Bernstein was a
    pseudonym used for politically subversive means added to your derisive
    follow-up in .3 seems to make light of the light of the issue.
    
    Don't you think that Jews are as capable of malicious intent as
    are other people or are all melachim who can do no wrong?
    
    David

    
    
    	Maybe it's just that i'm used to malicious
    	intent when speaking of Jew Vs. Jew.
    
    	

    >maybe it's just that i'm used to malicious 
    >intent when speaking of Jew vs. Jew
    
    just to add a little emphasis to this pt.
     
    i was listening to nbc news w/t. bokaw
    when he reported that the israeli gov't was upset w/the nbc 
    documentary on the 6 day war and the treatment of arabs
    in judea and samaria. they (the israeli gov't) found the docu. biased
    and one sided w/a pro plo slant.the israeli gov't indicated that if
    there was not a fair explanation of the situation they would consider
    barring nbc news reporters from interrviewing israeli cabinet officials
    
    in response to the israeli statement lawrence k. grossman
    head of nbc news accused the israeli gov't of"now trying to spread
    censorship to the american media"
    
    that is what i like about some jewish people "pure objectivity"
    
    i just wonder what goes thru mr grossman's mind. what was he thinking
    about when this docu. was aired on t.v.
    
    i fail to understand how mr.grossmn a jew has to bend over backward
    to show the view and propaganda of the very people who want to destroy
    the jews in israel.
    was there a message he was trying to send to the non jewish people
    of america. what type of feedback was he expecting (sic)
    
    i just wonder what type of report it would have been if a 
    'mr mohammed sallaam' was in charge of the news room, how
    far backward would he have bent to show the views of the jews in
    israel.
    

    re: .5
    
    Marxist parties have a term for internal criticism or introspection
    which I just can't think of right now.  There doesn't seem to be
    anything wrong with this practice, in fact in my opinion it can
    be a very healthy one.  So this can be extended to Jews taking an
    objective look at themselves and identifying the "weak points".
    
    I never had any malicious intent in writing the base note.  There
    seemed to be an issue earlier in this notesfile concerning hints
    of Anti-Semitism going on in BLACKNOTES.  Well let me tell you it's
    not a one-way street.  I've heard enough racist comments by Jews in the
    diaspora towards the "Schvartzes", and by Jews in Israel towards
    Arabs.
    
    David

    This discussion really worries me. Here we are, in Bagels,
    discussing something that we don't even know the facts about. 
    This Guy may be Jewish, we don't know. I would say that I don't
    know if it is important, but it obviously is.
    
    It's the generallities that concern me most. A guy, who may be Jewish,
    is racist. That means that all of us are responsible and we are
    all racist as well. Well you didn't say that, but that is your
    underlying reasoning that comes from these type of comments.

    I know we all do it. I suppose it's the big family thing. When one
    of us does well there is a feeling of pride, and when one does
    something we disapprove there is a feeling of shame. 
    
    The other thing is that we expect so much more of ourselves and
    Israel than we do non-Jewish people and other Countries. I don't
    know if this is always healthy, especially as we are so good at
    publicising our faults! Problem is that when the media does a
    documentary it likes to be seen as fair. It tries to show some good
    and bad equally from both sides - even if all things are not equal.
    Well, we provide some pretty good faults that are easy to find and
    well documented. We give them an easy time and convincing arguments.
    Are you surprised when they always seem to have such an easy job
    when they wish to criticise? In any program when they try to be
    fair by putting 'both sides of the argument' we give them some pretty
    convincing negative ones. No wonder Jewish or Israeli/Zionist ideas
    have such a hard time!
    
    Anyway, I don't know how productive this all can be,
    
    Sign off for now,
    
    Malcolm

    re: .8
    
    Malcolm, again I think my intent was misunderstood.  Of course all
    Jews aren't racist, and all Blacks aren't anti-semitic.  I didn't
    enjoy Jesse Jackson'd "Hymietown" remark, but I wasn't willing to
    make a blanket criticism because of it.
    
    Because humans have a relationship to one another, when one person
    prevents someone from buying a house in his/her neighbourhood then
    it affects us all.  Consequently when a fellow Jew commits such
    an act, then the entire kehilah (community) is affected.
    
    David

    I think this would be the wrong time to discuss whi is a Jew?
    
    Malcolm

    I don't think this has anything to do with "Who is a Jew?" (Let's
    not open that up!).  Rather the Jewish people's relationship to
    other minorities, and the world at large.
    
    David

    The common thread of both news stories in question (one man's quarrel
    with the quality of his neighbors, and the Israeli government's quarrel
    with the quality of an NBC documentary) is one of sensitivity rather
    than reactivity.  No, of course we're not going to send letters to
    this man pointing out the error of his damaging and self-righteous 
    attitude; but we can make sure that we are sensitive that, among the 
    Jewish people, there are those who have share attitudes.  We must then
    work harder to protray the more constuctive attitudes ourselves.
    
    The same holds true for the Israeli government and Israeli Jewish
    leaders (a subject on which I will, at this time, defer espousing my 
    very negative feelings).  If they feel that NBC documentary was
    slanted, then they should not react by banning NBC reporters.  To
    the contrary, they should invite the NBC cameras to report on "the
    way it really is" in Israel (or how it "really was" during the six-
    day war).
    
    Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Indians, Women, Men...we all carry the
    burden of our religion, race, sex and lineage.  Reacting to specific
    negative events is far less effective than maintaining sensitvity
    in the whole scheme of things.  I think that David was making an
    observation to assist us in maintaining that sensitivity; I do not
    think that it was a call to arms. 
    
    Marian

    I don't feel shame when a fellow Jew does a shameful act.  Neither
    do I feel that any Jew other than myself needs to maintain the highest
    moral and ethical standards -- you see, it's all a matter of choice.
    
    What DOES bother me are the questions that well-meaning (?) people
    ask me regarding how I stand, or how "my people" stand regarding
    the acts of a Jewish individual in Stoughton or a political party
    in Eretz Yisrael.  For some reason, and we may be partially responsible
    for it, people (gentiles and Jews) feel that Jews have a special
    relationship with eachother that makes every Jew accountable for
    the acts of every other Jew, even criminal acts.
    
    Yes, the guy in Stoughton is doing something un-Jewish, immoral
    and unethical (and probably illegal).  And no, I don't feel that
    I have to have an opinion about it.  I most certainly don't have
    to feel guilty or ashamed.  And if you, whoever you are, feel the
    need to ask me for a comment, I will ask you how you feel about
    the acts of a criminal from YOUR ethnic/cultural/religious background.
    Most people aren't even aware of what they're saying when they ask
    the casual question "As a Jew, how do you feel about _______ ".
    Perhaps it's time to gently point things out.
    
    Ed

    You mean some of you don't feel ashamed when a WASP acts like a
    bigot, or a black says all whites are honkys, or a man says all
    women are stupid or a woman says all men are chauvinists?
    
    					Paul
    

    I think the lines are clearly drawn on this question.
    
    David