Conference taveng::bagels

    On Pessach you cannot eat flour that is raised. Matzot are baked
    for a short time so that they are not given the chance to
    rise.
    
    The reason is because during the exodus the Children of Israel
    were in such a rush that that they didn't have the time to bake
    levened bread. The Matzot are a reminder of this.
    
    Malcolm

    On Passover it is forbidden even to possess wheat flour--it is
    called "chometz."  Possession of flour or its use in recipes
    does not necessarily have anything to do with its being raised.
    So the question remains unsettled.
    

    There is nothing inherently wrong with posessing wheat flour that
    has been properly supervised. 
    
    Wheat flour itself is not Chametz. However, if the wheat has not
    been supervised, from at least the point of grinding, to make sure
    that it has not come in contact with any water, then perhaps it
    has come in contact with some water, and this would then render it as 
    Chametz.
    
    The Ashkenazim generally don't bake from even supervised wheat flour
    because it is very difficult to supervise a baking process during
    Pesach both with regard to the speed needed to insure that no leavening
    occurs and that no crumbs of unbaked dough remain.
    
    Many Sphardim, however, are accustomed to baking during Pesach.
    
    The difference from "during" or "before" Pesach is quite complicated.
    I'll try to explain it as simply as I can.
    
    Generally there are laws which pertain to cases where a non_kosher
    item gets mixed into a kosher item. The law generally states that
    an amount less than 1.58% is considered as not being existent. This
    is true for Chametz before Pesach. Once Pesach starts the law states
    that Chametz in ANY amount (even 1:1000) will render a mixture
    as being totally Chametz.

    Cb.

    Just curious, but where does "1.58%" come from?  It is a
    mighty peculiar number.

    --Gary

    re .4
    
    Actually the number is 1.67%. The shulkan aruch states 1/60th.
    
    			Fred
    

    What does white flour versus wheat flower have to do with it being  
    Kosher for Pesach?
    
    The Hebrews did not bleach out their wheat and remove the wheat
    germ and other  healthy stuff.  There is no reason whole wheat matso
    could not be Kosher la Pesach.

    Actually in most cases the wheat used for baking Matzah is whole
    wheat and unbleached as the bleaching process would in itself expose
    the wheat to moisture.
    
    Cb.

    For many years, it was customary (at least in the US) to use fruit
    juice in whole wheat matzot.  This puts them in the category of "matza
    ashira."  Although these matzot are marked "kosher for Passover,"
    Ashkenazic custom is to not eat them, with the exception of those who
    cannot digest regular matza.  In any event, one cannot use "matza
    ashira" for the Seder obligation of eating matza. 
    
    In recent years, some companies have made whole wheat matzot with water
    and flour only.  One must look at the ingredients carefully.  *To the
    best of my knowledge*, such "normal" matzot are perfectly acceptable
    for Pesach use.  It is best to ask your own rabbi about your
    community's practice. 

    There are whole-wheat matzoh for Passover (made with water), and
    there are egg ones (made with apple juice - I like this kind). 
    At our house we eat both of these except for the seders.  We used
    to eat "regular" matzoh for the seders, but since Paul's sister
    married into a very "strict" family, we eat hand-made (expensive!!)
    shmurah matzoh for at least the first seder (when they are present)
    -- they eat only that kind for the whole holiday (at >$1 a matzoh!).
    So, it depends on your customs, I guess.
    
    Someone asked our rabbi about whole-wheat matzoh for a seder a couple
    of years ago - her doctor had her on a strict diet that only allowed
    wholewheat wheat products.  Since it was doctor's orders, it was
    OK for her to eat them (regardless of what everyone else ate in
    her family).
    
    I don't know what you do if you cannot eat wheat at all (thank goodness
    that, at least, is not one of the things I am allergic to).  I am
    very fond of barley and oats, as well as rice, and have often wished
    that there were "matzohs" made from these grains as well.  My
    sister-in-law likes to feed our little niece rice crackers, too,
    and it would be nice if someone made a rice-flour "crcker" (I think
    those things are only rice and water anyhow) for the holiday.
    I suppose most people who are allergic to wheat could eat the amount
    of matzoh you HAVE to eat during a seder, but I can think of one
    person (she is not Jewish, though) who can't have ANY wheat, and
    uses oat flour in all her baking (makes GREAT pancakes!!).

	So, now I know about Matzoh! But, What about noodles? Why can't we eat
	noodles? Where is it written that the flat/curly/or whatever noodle is
	not kosher for passover? The ingredients say Flour... no yeast and as
	one can see from the package, they're dry so, there's no water.

	If anyone can answer this, I'ld appreciate an answer soon. I'ld love
	to have Kasha varnischkis, first seder. If it's legal. 

RE: .10

   There is no way to make noodles without the flour coming in contact with 
   water for less than the 18-minute limit.

   If you must have noodles for passover, they are made with eggs and potatoe 
   starch -- the mixture is fried like a crepe and then rolled tightly and
   sliced thin.  The only time we use these in in soup (as matzo balls are a
   no-no during passover).   

    I only make matzoh balls for the second seder (at OUR PLACE this year -
    lots of work for me!) - they aren't very good for you if you are
    supposed to not eat much cholesterol, but other than that they are
    kosher for Passover.   They taste good, too, although they sure sink to
    the pit of the stomach if you don't normally eat stuff of that sort...
    I sort of have that problem with Passover anyhow - our family eats a
    lot of rice normally.
    
    There *are* kosher-for-Passover noodles, too, but they are pretty bad
    unless you are really desparate for something that looks like pasta. 
    They are made of matzoh meal and water, and taste about like you would
    expect - I even have recipes for making these things, but I have never
    bothered since no one will eat the commercial ones (made by Goodman's,
    I think).  I even have recipes for lasagna made with wet matzohs
    instead of lasagna noodles - don't bother with this one either!
    
    If you are Ashkenazic, you can't eat the buckwheat either (since flour
    can be made from it), so you should save the kasha recipe for after
    Pesach.  I don't know if buckwheat is allowed if you are Sephardic
    (rice definitely is, as are peas - in fact, they are traditional!).
    
    /Charlotte (whose oven is running a cleaning cycle while she is at work
    today...counting down to the holiday!)
    
    Anyone know how come no one has the Rakussen's matzoh this year??  They
    made a really good wholewheat matzoh, but I haven't seen any anyplace
    this year.  At least there was olive oil this year, and peanut oil - I
    don't like cottonseed oil (although nothing sticks if you use it) and
    am not 100% sure that cottonseeds, which are not normally eaten anyhow,
    might not contain traces of pesticides and herbicides since cotton is
    not normally a food crop.  The olive oil is expensive, though!

To clarify .11:

Chametz is formed when flour comes in contact with water for more than
18 minutes.  There are even tighter restrictions for some other liquids.

Yeast per se is not chametz -- you can get Kosher L'Pesach wine yeast,
for example.

Some people don't eat "gebrokts," which means that they don't eat matzo
that's come in contact with water (hence .11's remark that kneidlach are
forbidden).

.12 is correct in that buckwheat is not eaten by Ashkenazim, and partly
correct about Sefardim eating rice.  Most Sefardim do eat rice, but
some (Moroccans, for example) do not.

    I had a choice of Rakussen, Aviv (distributed by Osem) 
    and Yehudah.
    
    Now I remember the Rakussen Matzot, tea sized Matzot, but not
    wholeweat. That's not to say they wern't made. 
    
    The Rakussen are baked in Leeds (UK) with the others from Israel. 
    
    Malcolm

.12>    There *are* kosher-for-Passover noodles, too, but they are pretty bad
.12>    unless you are really desparate for something that looks like pasta. 

A couple of years ago, I ate at a local (Jerusalem) kosher Italian restaurant
during Pesach.  I'll admit that I was very skeptical, but I received a pleasant
surprise.  They had made kosher-le-Pesach spaghetti that really tasted very
good; I think that it was based on potatoes, but I'm not sure.  They weren't
offering any of their usual other pasta; possibly their recipe only worked for
spaghetti.

    Hmm, I suppose one could make the potato sort of gnocchi, using matzoh
    meal in place of the flour, and end up with something good-tasting (not
    like wet matzohs!) since there isn't much flour in gnocchi anyhow.  One
    of my neighbor's Italian mother makes great gnocchi when she comes to
    the US to visit him, and she usually wants to invite us over for some.
    Of course she does not use recipes - she just mixes enough flour into
    mashed potatoes so that they form a dough, so I'm sure that would work
    with cake meal just as well.  Maybe I'll try it next year!
    
    /Charlotte

>    Hmm, I suppose one could make the potato sort of gnocchi, using matzoh
>    meal in place of the flour 

     Couldn't you use potato flour (or whatever they call it in the
     U.S.) instead of matzoth meal? 


     Marge

    We call it "potato starch", and I don't know - I have never made
    gnocchi from scratch anyhow.  If you come up with some edible and
    pesachdic, post the recipe!  We normally eat a lot of rice and pasta in
    our house, and find Pesach real hard on the digestive system anyhow - a
    pasta substitute that was tasty would be a real benefit.

    Here we go again: years ago (back a few replies in this very note) I
    said that oat or barley matzohs might be good.  Well, we found out at
    our seder that a good friend of ours, who is a frequent visitor to our
    house at Pesach, has been diagnosed as being gluten-intolerant.  He is
    not the sort of guy to complain about his health, and I wouldn't have
    even found out if his wife hadn't whispered it to me, but it was a
    little late to try to do anything special for him this year.  He ate
    the smallest acceptable-sized bits of shmerah matzoh, and I assume he
    was OK afterwards.  However, for next year, I would like to get the oat
    shmerah matzoh for him, since he is not supposed to be eating wheat
    anymore.  For future reference, does anyone have the address to get
    them?  I know it was someplace in New York.
    
    /Charlotte           

I can't explain why egg matzoh is not eaten by Ashkenazim
after the first two days of Pesach. Since we are not obligated
to eat matzoh on the last 6 days, why should egg matzoh
be forbidden?

Dave

(Thanks, Charlotte, for directing attention to this note.)

I'm pretty sure this is the explanation:

When water is mixed with flour, it takes 18 minutes for the mixture to become
chametz.  When certain other liquids (eggs, fruit juice) are mixed with flour,
there's an opinion that the mixture becomes chametz immediately.