Conference taveng::bagels

    P is Pareve

    K is Kosher

But what is (U)?

    (U)  => Union of Orthodox Rabbis (I think, maybe, kinda...)

    re: .2
    
    yup!
    

    Re .0
    
    U-O which is owned by the Union of Orthodox Rabbis, use a "P" to
    denote that a product is acceptable for Passover. Many brands of
    instant coffee will be marked "U-O P Parve".
    
    			Fred
    

    You also see KVH (letters written on top of each other), which means
    the product is kosher according to the (orthodox) Vad Harabonim (of
    Boston, around here), and is probably acceptable to same set of
    people who would otherwise insist on seeing (U).  A lot of pickled
    herring and similar stuff is marked that way (near Boston, anyhow).
    
    Just K as a mark for kosher is acceptable to some people and not
    to others.  K  usually means that the item is pareve, so you have
                 P
    to look to see if it also says "kosher shel pesach" on it somewhere.
                 

It seems that there is a lot of confusion regaring the P after a kosher
    mark.  For example I have a can of OU (Union of Orthodox Rabbis)
    marked chicken soup (real chicken soup) with a P on it.  It can't
    be parve and it also have a label of Kosher for Pesach.  SO the
    P must mean for Pesach but I'm not so sure on other products.  Since
    there is confusion then I will research it and let you know.  SInce
    my wife and I keep Kosher it is important to us.  The confusion
    arises since there are very few Kosher products sold in grocery
    stores that aren't parve.
    
    WS
    

    OU-P ALWAYS means Kosher for Passover.  If it is Parve, it will
    say OU-Parve on it.
    
    Cof-K, OK ,  K-W and KVH all print the word "PARVE".
    
    There is a movement to institute a new lettering system in association
    with the standard kosher aggency markings:
    
    N =Neutral, Parve
    D =Dairy ingredients
    M =Meat ingredients
    DE=Neutral/Parve BUT manufactured on DAIRY EQUIPMENT
    ME=Neutral/Parve BUT manufactured on MEAT EQUIPMENT
    P =Kosher for Passover

    So, for example, some Egermann's cakes may soon be marked OU-DE to mean
    that they are, in fact, Parve---but should not be eaten with a meat
    meal.  They can, however, be eaten immediately after the meal (not
    after 3-6 hours[depending on your custom]).
    
    ---Av 
    

reply to: < Note 298.5 by CADSYS::RICHARDSON >
                  -< more ways to say "kosher for Passover" >-

>>>    Just K as a mark for kosher is acceptable to some people and not
>>>    to others.  K  usually means that the item is pareve, so you have
>>>                 P
>>>    to look to see if it also says "kosher shel pesach" on it somewhere.
                 
	This probably should be opened up for discussion at some point -
why not here?

	It seems to me that if "K" is "acceptable to some but not others",
then there's some real education to be done. Why?  Read on...

	Virtually all of the Kashrus marks, i. e., "OU", "Chof-K", "OK",
etc., etc., are copyright marks owned by some organization, or individual 
Rabbi, etc. This means that there's some "source" who you can trust/blame 
for the Kashrus (or lack of same) for the product. You can use your
(or your Rabbi's!) opinion of that organization's standards to guide your
choice of foods.

	Unlike all the rest, the unadorned "K" is NOT owned by anyone.
There is no requirement for anyone's supervision of any kind on a product
that bears a "K".  There are many cases of the food's processor themselves
simply putting a "K" on the product to somehow tell all the Jews out there that
their product is "Kosher".

	Unfortunately, the meaning of the "K" varies by vendor, and you simply
have to KNOW about the particular vendor. A couple of classic examples:

	"K" on Hood Dairy products is equivalent to a "VH" of Mass.
	They are acceptable.

	"K" on several brands of saltine crackers are totally 
	unsurpervised. They contain lard, and a simply not Kosher.

	"K" on "Jell-O" brand products is due to a certain conservative
	Rabbi whose opinion it is that gelatin (made from animal
	products, and not always Kosher animals...) is Kosher and Pareve.

	"K" on "Apple Slice" soda is acceptable, but only by accident.
	The soda contains grape juice, which ordinarily unless "heckshered"
	would not be considered Kosher.  However, my Rabbi, and a couple
	of other Rabbis investigated this.  The company had no knowledge
	that the non-Kosher grape juice would have rendered their product
	non-Kosher, made an assumption, and printed the "K".  And then --
	it turns out that the grape juice is, by accident, from a Kosher
	source!

I just received a list of "K" equivalences, where they could be researched.
It was almost comical in places.

I don't mean to insult anyone, but if there's anyone out there who 
believes that they "keep Kosher", and trust the "K" without further
investigation, I have this bridge to sell....

Re: .8:

	> "K" on several brands of saltine crackers are totally 
	> unsurpervised. They contain lard, and a simply not Kosher.

I have never seen any crackers with lard labeled with "K".  If you know of
specific examples, please share it.  This is so blatantly fraudulent that 
it should be brought to the attention of appropriate authorities.

	> "K" on "Jell-O" brand products is due to a certain conservative
	> Rabbi whose opinion it is that gelatin (made from animal
	> products, and not always Kosher animals...) is Kosher and Pareve.

This is not just the opinion of a single Rabbi.  The Standards Committee of 
the Rabbinical Assembly (the organization of Conservative Rabbis) has adopted 
the position that the gelatin derivatives in question are no longer 
recognizable as being of animal origin.  Hence, the Conservative movement holds
that certain gelatin products may be regarded as Kosher and Pareve.

David Ellis -- Secure Systems Group -- LTN2-2/C08 -- DTN 226-6784 

    re .9 and gelatin:
    
    I wish someone would rule that the animal-derived chemical rennet
    is merely a chemical, too.  I don't like the flavor of most kosher
    cheeses because the rennet substitute they have to use has a strong
    taste of its own - I only eat them during Passover (we kasher the
    house for Passover - not kosher the rest of the year).
                      

    re .10 and rennet,
    
    I don't understand the religous logic on rennet as if it is meat,
    and not just a chemical, surely mixing it with milk contradicts
    the basics of kashrut.
    
    Malcolm

re:  .11
    
>>>    I don't understand the religous logic on rennet as if it is meat,
>>>    and not just a chemical, surely mixing it with milk contradicts
>>>    the basics of kashrut.
    
	I don't understand!  Animal rennet is not just a chemical, and does
	"mix" milk and meat...what are you saying?

re:  .10

	??

	We started using kosher cheeses exclusively about five years ago,
	but we used to eat "all kinds" of cheeses before that.

	I don't remember noticing ANY real taste difference due to the
	enzyme, or anything else, even then. Nothing more than I'd have
	noticed between brands of non-Kosher cheese. We do think of ourselves
	as good cooks, but maybe we're missing something...

	Now, I have noticed that a whole bunch of the "cholov Yisrael" cheeses
	come delivered either in a nice, blue, fuzzy jacket (to keep them warm,
	I guess), or "pre-rancid-ized". This is a scandal (and is
	not limited to cheese. It's also true of Cholov Yisrael milk, yogurt,
	etc. No reason/excuse for it!) It is known, has been exposed, but seems
	to be resistant to publicity. I find one brand, in particular,
	to be the worst offender.

	It's probably because so few people keep Cholov Yisrael, and they have
	no power.

/don feinberg

    The question of cheese is an expanding subject.  Many cheeses today
    don't use rennent.  They use an enzyme created from bacteria.
    
    WS
    

Don,
        
|re:  .11
|    
|>>>    I don't understand the religous logic on rennet as if it is meat,
|>>>    and not just a chemical, surely mixing it with milk contradicts
|>>>    the basics of kashrut.
|    
|	I don't understand!  Animal rennet is not just a chemical, and does
|	"mix" milk and meat...what are you saying?
    
    As I understand this, animal rennet can be used in kosher cheese
    if it comes from a kosher animal. This is because it is said to
    be that far removed from the source that it is only considered as a
    chemical substance.
    
    Obviously you couldn't do this to make kosher cheese if it envolved 
    mixing meat with milk toether.
    
    The question is that if rennet can be used in the making of cheese
    because it is considered to be a 'chemical substance' then why 
    should it have to come from a kosher source? 

    Malcolm

re:  .-1

>>>    As I understand this, animal rennet can be used in kosher cheese
>>>    if it comes from a kosher animal. This is because it is said to
>>>    be that far removed from the source that it is only considered as a
>>>    chemical substance.
    
>>>    Obviously you couldn't do this to make kosher cheese if it envolved 
>>>    mixing meat with milk toether.

	The position that "animal rennet can be used in kosher cheese...
	because it is far removed", etc., is a (relatively recent)
	position of the Rabbinical Assembly (the organization of
	Conservative Rabbis). One could say that that's a "position of the
	Conservative movement". 

	Briefly, more traditional Rabbis just do not accept the argument of
	"sufficiently removed to be considered a chemical", whether it's
	gelatin, rennet, etc. The traditional position is that it's still
	an "animal" source. 

	So, cheeses made with animal rennet or synthetic enzymes are
	considered kosher by the Conservative movement, but only cheeses made
	with the synthetic enzymes are considered kosher by more
	traditional Jews. 

	By the way, this whole discussion only refers to what are
	known as "hard" cheeses. "Hard" here is used as a technical term 
	and doesn't refer to the texture of the cheese. But generally, 
	kashrus of cheeses such as cream cheese and ricotta are agreed on
 	by both groups, but cheeses such as cheddar can be argued about. 

>>>    The question is that if rennet can be used in the making of cheese
>>>    because it is considered to be a 'chemical substance' then why 
>>>    should it have to come from a kosher source? 

	Exactly right, I think. Why, indeed?

	If the gelatin in "Jello" is so removed from the original source,
	theoretically, then, one could use pig as the original source and
	then declare the final product ("Jello") kosher.

	Not for me, thank you very much! For myself, I cannot accept that
	someone takes pig, processes something of it somehow, then
	declares that they have a pure chemical - and that I shouldn't be
	concerned about eating pig.

/don feinberg

    I find that health-food-store rennetless cheeses (not explicitly
    marked kosher, though most probably would be, I suppose, if anyone
    wanted to apply for it) also taste "funny", compared to the same
    varieties made with rennet - the synthetic rennet has a different
    flavor.  Rennetless monterey jack cheese is has a particularly bad
    flavor (both kosher and health-food store varieities), so I don't
    buy it anymore.  Most of my vegetarian friends only eat rennetless
    cheese, even the non-Jewish ones, so we aren't the only people who
    think of rennet as being a "meat product".
    
    I agree wholeheartedly about rancid kosher cheese - we've been bitten
    by that during Passover before.  I am very careful about what brands
    I will buy now.   We only keep kosher during Passover (kasher the
    whole house, have special dishes, etc.), and it is a very long ways
    to the nearest store stocking kosher items from our home, so anything
    we buy in the great Passover shopping trip that turns out to be
    inedible we end up doing without.
    
    I don't think that the position of rennet being a chemical is very
    common, even among Reform congregations (such as ours); I definitely
    wouldn't feed it to my (orthodox) mother-in-law.  I think most ordinary
    gelatin is made from beef bones (like making aspic), though you
    can make it from agar-agar also (that is, seaweed); I don't know
    what kosher gelatin is made from (I don't eat jello anyways).  If
    it is made from beef, then it becomes a question of the origin of
    the beef and what you want to serve the jello with.  (I think it
    is possible to make aspic from pork bones, but I don't think commercial
    gelatin is made that way -- I could be wrong).  Oriental gelatin
    is made from agar-agar.

    Thanks for the information. The friend of mind who explained
    the possible difference between vegetarian and kosher cheeses
    is a strictly orthordox vegetarian Jewess. It is because of this
    that she only eats 'vegetarian' cheese. I don't know whether 
    kosher cheese over here (London Beth Din supervised and some imported 
    from Holland, Denmark - Samson, and Israel - tneuvah) contains rennet of 
    animal origin or not. No claims are made but it is all accepted as 
    kosher by the  strictest of authorities though. 
    
    I never noticed a different taste between kosher and other cheeses. 
    I tend to buy vegetarian as in Reading there aren't any kosher
    delis. Some has an unmistakably similar wrappings as the 'kosher'
    equilavent.

    It is strange that kosher products over here don't market themselves
    as also suitable for vegetarians. We also don't have the advantage
    of ordinary products having a kosher symbol on them. The kosher
    market is not that great but combined with the Moslem/ Vegetarian
    there should be possibilities.
    
    Malcolm

    What really puzzles me is that Lea and Perrins Worcestershire sauce
    says on it U-O Fish.
    
    Anchovies is one of the ingredients listed.
    
    But to my knowledge fish is pareve, so why is this information
    relevant?  Is there some obscure Jewish law prohibiting fish
    during some holiday or event?
    

    <Insert standard disclaimer of not being an expert, here>
    
    I remember something about not being able to eat meat and fish
    simultaneously, although they may be eaten during the same meal.
    
    Just don't put any Worcestershire sauce on your steaks or burgers ...

    
    Dave

    Re .18 
    
    I asked this same question in November of 85 on n.r.j (now known as
    s.c.j). Here are the replies and personal mail that I received.
    The subject is a lot more complicated than it appears.
    
    			Fred
    

Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-gramps!liss
Subject: Caviar oil in kosher salad dressing
Posted: 5 Nov 85 17:41:30 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


        While I was eating dinner last night I idly picked up the
        bottle of salad dressing and began to read the label. I was
        surprised to see one of the ingredients was caviar oil,
        especially since there is a "U" on the label. This doesn't
        particularly bother me, but many of my Lubovitch friends will
        serve fish with separate plates and silverware. They then
        clear the table and set it for meat or dairy as appropriate.

        Knowing that some people keep fish separate from meat and
        dairy, how can the manufacturer of the salad dressing put a
        "U" on the label. The brand in question is Ken's Steak House
        salad dressing. It may be a local brand.

                       Regards,
                              Fred
---
Frederick R. Liss        UUCP ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-gramps!liss
Digital Equipment Corp.  ARPA    liss%[email protected]
333 South St.    Shrewsbury MA, 01545   Mail Stop SHR1-4/D21









Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!greipa!pesnta!hplabs!qantel!ihnp4!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxv!mhuxh!mhuxi!erc3ba!ayf
Subject: Re: Caviar oil in kosher salad dressing
Posted: 7 Nov 85 16:59:43 GMT
Organization: AT&T Engineering Research Center   Princeton, NJ


The issue of Kosher or not is what the presence of the symbol of the
rabbinic supervisory organization ( the Union of Orthodox Rabbis in this
particular case) on the product addresses. The symbol says that there
are no nonkosher elements in the product, and there are no problems in
it's manufacture. The next issue is how you, as a consumer, will use the
product. Since it is not permitted to eat meat and dairy together,
products may often have the words {meat, dairy, pareve (neither meat nor
dairy) } on them to let you know with what other things they may be
used. (The UO will sometimes include the letter 'D' to indicate that
something is dairy.) However this is not always done, and it is a good
habit to read the ingredients label to check.

The issue of fish is different. Eating meat and dairy together is a
problem in the laws of Kosher. Fish is pareve and may, with regard to
the laws of Kosher, be eaten with either meat or dairy. As such, items
containing fish are not marked as such. Those who do not eat meat and
fish together, base it on a question of health. The Talmud states that
eating meat and fish together can lead to danger. I have not come
across any authority that extends this danger to fish oils, and to
products that contain some amount of fish oil or by-products. As to
whether there is any such danger in eating fish and dairy, the majority
of the opinions are that there is no danger. There is one major
authority who seems to say that there is, and he quotes someone else as
his source, who does not say that, and the consenses is that an error
crept in here somewhere. There are few however who do extend it. (I'll
recheck and post the details later on).

I guess the conclusion is that the supervisory organizations tell you
that the product is kosher and "may" tell you if it is dairy, meat or
pareve, but the use of the product in any given meal is your
responsibility.

Avi Feldblum
AT&T Tech - ERC
uucp: {allegra, ihnp4}!pruxc!ayf  or
                      !erc3ba!ayf

>
>       While I was eating dinner last night I idly picked up the
>         bottle of salad dressing and began to read the label. I was
>         surprised to see one of the ingredients was caviar oil,
>         especially since there is a "U" on the label. This doesn't
>         particularly bother me, but many of my Lubovitch friends will
>         serve fish with separate plates and silverware. They then
>         clear the table and set it for meat or dairy as appropriate.
>
>       Knowing that some people keep fish separate from meat and
>         dairy, how can the manufacturer of the salad dressing put a
>         "U" on the label. The brand in question is Ken's Steak House
>         salad dressing. It may be a local brand.
>
>                      Regards,
>                             Fred








Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!Glacier!oliveb!hplabs!qantel!ihnp4!bocar!sieg
Subject: Re: Caviar oil in kosher salad dressing
Posted: 8 Nov 85 18:27:58 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Liberty Corner

In article 1620@erc3ba    A. Y. Feldbllum writes ..

>  The issue of Kosher or not is what the presence of the symbol of the
>  rabbinic supervisory organization ( the Union of Orthodox Rabbis in this
>  particular case) on the product addresses. The symbol says that there
>  are no nonkosher elements in the product, and there are no problems in
>  it's manufacture. The next issue is how you, as a consumer, will use the
>  product. Since it is not permitted to eat meat and dairy together,
>  products may often have the words {meat, dairy, pareve (neither meat nor
>  dairy) } on them to let you know with what other things they may be
>  used. (The UO will sometimes include the letter 'D' to indicate that
>  something is dairy.) However this is not always done, and it is a good
>  habit to read the ingredients label to check.

Often even this is not enough!
The rabbinic supervisory organizations DO NOT tell you whether the product
is made on dairy equipment.   Obviously one can not deduce this from
the ingredients.  This leads to problems if the item (made on dairy
equipment) is eaten at the same time as eating meat.

The classic case is using Hersheys choclate syrup on Pareve ice cream for
dessert, in the same meal after eating meat. This is OK (no pun intended)
as long as the two are not eaten simultaneously.  However, items such as
bread which may somehow be made on dairy equipment, yet has only Pareve
ingredients, there is no indication of this (on the package) by the
rabbinic supervisoy organization.

Does anyone know why the rabbinic supervisory organizations let this happen?

P.S.  I think I heard that the "chuf-K" rabbinic supervisory organization
      is trying to start a new symbol to solve this problem.









Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!sun!saber!qubix!sci!weitek!cae780!amdcad!amd!pesnta!phri!pluto!warren
Subject: Re: Caviar oil in kosher salad dressing
Posted: 12 Nov 85 15:51:25 GMT
Organization: Industrial Automation Systems Inc., New York, N.Y.
Summary: terminology needed

[this line is treif, circumcized computers please don't eat]

It's even difficult to describe the situation of a food not
containing any explicit meat or dairy, but being cooked in a
meat or dairy pot.  People always ask "is that milk (or meat),"
"no, but it was cooked in a milk pot" takes too long to say.
Similarly, "pareve" is Yiddish, not Hebrew so you will sometimes
see on Israeli products "may be eaten with meat or milk foods" (xlated).

I think we need at least five different words to describe the possibilities.

I also wish I had learned more about Kashrut in Yeshiva.  They taught
us lots of Mishneh Brurah but no Yoreh Deah at all.  Have others had
different experiences?  I wonder why this is.








Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!decvax!bellcore!petrus!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!mhuxv!mhuxh!mhuxi!erc3ba!ayf
Subject: Sources for fish and meat/milk prohibition
Posted: 15 Nov 85 13:23:54 GMT
Organization: AT&T Engineering Research Center   Princeton, NJ


        As promised, here are the sources on not eating fish and meat or
fish and dairy. I hope the transliterations are recognizable.

        The halachah of not eating fish and meat together is found in
Shulchan Orach Yorah Da'ah Chapter 116, law 2:

        One must be careful not to eat meat and fish together because it
may cause leprosy.

        The Pischai Tsuvah has a long discussion there as to whether we
aplly the laws of 'bitul' - becoming void, if the fish or meat is less
than one part in 60 of the whole. His conclusion is that although this
is an issue of danger (where the above rules may not apply) rather than
prohibition (where the above rules do apply), nevertheless we can apply
the rules of 'bitul' here. (see the Pischai Tsuvah for the reasons) My
understanding is that several of the Kashrut organizations depend on
this ruling in cases such as the salad dressing that began this
discussion.

        The question of fish and dairy can be found in the commentaries
of the Yorah Da'ah chapter 87 law 3 where the Taz quotes the Bais Yosef
who says that you can't eat fish and milk, and then the Taz says that it
is an error in the Bais Yosef and it should read fish and meat. The
Shach brings down the Lavush who also says you can't eat fish and milk,
and refers to the Orach Chaim chapter 173 in support. The Orach Chaim
talks only about fish and meat, so the Shach says that the Lavush erred
due to the error in the Bais Yosef. The Pischai Tsuvah brings several
opinions that the Lavush was not mistaken, but concludes that we do not
have to worry about those opinions and can permit fish and milk to be
eaten.

Avi Feldblum
AT&T
uucp: {ihnp4, allegra}!pruxc!ayf   or
                      !erc3ba!ayf








Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!pyramid!pesnta!amd!vecpyr!lll-lcc!lll-crg!qantel!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!nachum
Subject: Re: Sources for fish and meat/milk proh
Posted: 17 Nov 85 00:15:00 GMT
Organization:
Nf-ID: #R:erc3ba.UUCP:164:uiucdcs:44500027:000:233
Nf-From: uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU!nachum    Nov 16 18:15:00 1985


Arukh Hashulkhan, Yore Deah, loc. cit., agrees that 1/60th is "batel".

Rambam omits any mention of meat-fish prohibition.

Magen Avraham on Shulkhan Arukh, 273:1, says that "in these countries"
one doesn't worry about such things.








Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!pyramid!pesnta!amd!vecpyr!lll-lcc!lll-crg!qantel!ihnp4!houxm!mtuxo!mtgzz!dsc
Subject: Re: Kosher labelling question
Posted: 20 Nov 85 21:30:29 GMT
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Middletown NJ

The following list was copied from one of the many kashruth
newsletters.
Unfotunately, from the torn page that i saved, i can't determine
which one.
Although the lists are not exhaustive i think they should answer
some of the questions as to what needs a hashgacha.

Partial List of Ingredients to be Presumed Non-Kosher
Unless Certified by Reliable Rabbinical Supervision

argol
calcium stearate
calcium stearol lactylate
calcium stearoyl-2-lactylate
cream of tartar
dough conditioners
eggs (or egg components e.g. albumen, yolks, ova)
emulsifier
fish or fish products
galatine
glycerine
glycerol monostearate
glycine
grape juice
gum base
lard
lipids
magnesium stearate
mono and diglycerides
natural and artificial flavor
pepper cream
pepsin
polyglycerol esters of fatty acids
polysorbate 60
polysorbate 80
rennet
sortening
softeners
sorbitan monostearate
spam
stabilizers
stearic acid
tartaric acid
tumeric
tween
vegatable oil
vegatable shortening
wine vinegar


Partial list of dairy ingredients
butter
casein
curds
lactose (not to be confused with lactic acid which is usually pareve)
non-fat dry milk
sodium caseinate
whey









From:   RHEA::DECWRL::"ihnp4!ihlpa!humbert"  7-NOV-1985 10:49
To:     ihnp4!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-gramps!liss
Subj:   RE: Caviar oil in kosher salad dressing

In-Reply-To: your article <[email protected]>
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There is no basis in halakha for keeping fish and dairy separate.  I believe
that even the Lubavitchers will admit, when pressed, that their practice is
just a custom, not a law (check this with a Lubavitcher to be sure).  The
whole custom is quite recent, and it originates from a printer's error (I'm not
kidding) wherein the printer meant `meat' but instead printed either `fish' or `milk'
(I don't remember which).

Now for the practice of separating fish and meat.  This topic was discussed
last year in net.religion.jewish -- not that anything you read there is
reliable -- and apparently there are a lot of confused people out there.
The law according to the Shulkhan Arukh is that fish and meat may not be
cooked together.  That's all.  Of course, if they're served together and
one or both dishes are still hot, then there may still be some cooking.
But everything else -- separating cold fish from cold meat, washing silverware,
or even separate silverware -- is just a custom with no justification in
halakha.

I do not disparage customs, of course.  I keep the custom myself of not serving
cold fish with cold meat, and of not using the same silverware for both unless
it is washed between the two.  Customs must be respected, even admired, but
they are not law.  Thus you cannot expect the U-O to require that the
manufacturers place a big warning label on their product when no law is in
danger of being broken.

                                        jfs









From:   RHEA::DECWRL::"ihnp4!ihlpa!humbert"  7-NOV-1985 10:49
To:     ihnp4!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-gramps!liss
Subj:   RE: Caviar oil in kosher salad dressing

In-Reply-To: your article <[email protected]>
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There is no basis in halakha for keeping fish and dairy separate.  I believe
that even the Lubavitchers will admit, when pressed, that their practice is
just a custom, not a law (check this with a Lubavitcher to be sure).  The
whole custom is quite recent, and it originates from a printer's error (I'm not
kidding) wherein the printer meant `meat' but instead printed either `fish' or `milk'
(I don't remember which).

Now for the practice of separating fish and meat.  This topic was discussed
last year in net.religion.jewish -- not that anything you read there is
reliable -- and apparently there are a lot of confused people out there.
The law according to the Shulkhan Arukh is that fish and meat may not be
cooked together.  That's all.  Of course, if they're served together and
one or both dishes are still hot, then there may still be some cooking.
But everything else -- separating cold fish from cold meat, washing silverware,
or even separate silverware -- is just a custom with no justification in
halakha.

I do not disparage customs, of course.  I keep the custom myself of not serving
cold fish with cold meat, and of not using the same silverware for both unless
it is washed between the two.  Customs must be respected, even admired, but
they are not law.  Thus you cannot expect the U-O to require that the
manufacturers place a big warning label on their product when no law is in
danger of being broken.

                                        jfs

    Hunh?  Why would turmeric be a spice to be suspicious of unless
    it is marked kosher by an authority that you trust?  Turmeric is
    made from a root, dried and ground up, like ginger (which wasn't
    listed as problematical).  So what's suspicious about turmeric?
    

It's interesting that lard and spam are listed as ingredients to be 
suspicious of unless approved by a reliable authority.

I'd be suspicious of any authority who approved these ingredients :^)

    Well, I didn't think there was any question about the "suspiciousness"
    of ingredients made from PORK!  There shouldn't be any reason to
    need to list such stuff.  But I still wonder about turmeric.  Anyone
    know?

    TUMERIC, PEPPER CREAM
    
    These spices are often added to pickling brine in the form of an
    essential oil or oleoresin of tumeric or pepper cream.  Thwe oil
    is insoluble in other liquids unless blended with di-glycerides
    and must therefore be produced under kashruth supervision.  All
    products containing tumeric and pepper cream may be used only if
    they are kashruth endorsed.
    
    							p 28
    
    		KASHRUTH-- a handbook for home and school
    		1972   Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations

    It sounds like "tumeric" is not the same spice as "turmeric"?
    
    TuRmeric, which is what I assumed was meant (I make a lot of typos,
    myself), is a big ingredient in a lot of middle-eastern recipes.
    For example, it is important in Israeli lentil soup (at least the
    various recipes I have for it - I LOVE lentils).  It is bright yellow,
    almost orange, to the point of staining your cooking utensils.

    The spice mentioned in the LISS list (.20) was tumeric.