Conference taveng::bagels

    	It all depends on whether you intend to have children.  If you
    don't, then it's strictly your own problem to decide how to deal
    with your family.
    
	But if you do have children, you are raising the stakes of the
    viability of your marriage and also of the mental/spiritual well-being
    of the children.  If you and your husband/significant other can't
    agree beforehand how to handle the situation, and make it ironclad,
    you're most likely setting up a highly problematical situation.
    (As with all problematical situations, sometimes it all works out
    fine, but the odds are against it.)
    
    	Just the fact that you're questioning yourself openly here
    indicates that you'd better do a lot of thinking and soul-searching.
    I wish you luck.
    
    		David

    I SAY WHY NOT,WHY DOES IT MATTER WHAT CERAMIC GOD YOU PUT ON THE
    FRONT LAWN. AS LONG AS TWO PEOPLE WANT TO SIGN THE BIG CONTRACT
    I DONT BELIEVE THAT THE SPIRITUAL SOUL TRAIN SHOULD LEAVE THEM AT
    THE STATION.AS FAR AS THE KIDS ARE CONCERNED IT WOULD SEEM TO ME
    THAT THIS WOULD ONLY GIVE THEM MORE OF A CHOICE ON THE  HEAVENLY
    MENU.LIGHTEN UP. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    You hoid it hear.

    Don't know what happended to .0 people, so please
    don't ask me.

    

    It looks like the original author deleted it.  It is a tough subject.
    
    To the anonymous author of .0
    
    If you want to talk about it in a more private forum,  feel free to
    send me mail or to phone me - I'm in ELF.
    
    				Paul Young
    

    Yup, it is working pretty well for us :-) I am very happy to say...
    and I am a "goy"
    
    Lynne

re: -1

I think Av Frydman raised a pertinent point in reply to one of your replies.
I'm glad that you are getting along fine with your husband and his family
but have you had any children yet, and how will you bring them up?  Also would
you consider converting to Judaism? 

David

    I am not necessarily advocating the following, however secular humanism
    is a valid "third" alternative to conversions and "problematic"
    children. When both spouses have no binding religious/ethnic feelings
    (and this is not uncommon), then why should they rack their brains
    along religious/ethnic lines? This is of course not that easy in
    many countries, but in the US it can be done and is done.

re: -1

What can the Jewish people gain by having individual choose secular humanism?
"Conversions" to secular humanism will still diminish our numbers and threaten
our future status in the world at large.

David

    The only gain I was tactically interested in in my reply was
    that of a happy family, provided secular humanism was an
    acceptable alternative.

    I do not like to measure the well-being of the Jewish people
    by how much they "gain". I do not believe that
>"Conversions" to secular humanism will still diminish our numbers and threaten
> our future status in the world at large. 

    Isn't it true that an average Tzabar will identify himself as an
    Israeli first and a Jew second? The dates on which people take days off
    (and many do view holidays as just that -- days off) here in the US, or
    in Israel do not make a secular humanist (nominally Jew or Christian or
    Mongrel) into a Jew or a Christian.

    I have mentioned in this file elsewhere (I think) that secular Jews
    and half-breeds provided through the years significant contributed to 
    the Jewish people. And some many times more than somebody who could
    be classified as a "complete Jew".

    I do not wish to re-start the "who is a Jew" discussion, but Jewish
    people lose more "useful" members through religious inflexibility, and
    that I would classify as something that will "diminish our numbers and
    threaten our future status in the world at large."

    At the same time I also strongly believe that ``Jewish fundamentalist''
    groups like Chassidim are also extremely vital to the People of Israel.

re .10:

>    I have mentioned in this file elsewhere (I think) that secular Jews
>    and half-breeds provided through the years significant contributed to 
>    the Jewish people. And some many times more than somebody who could
>    be classified as a "complete Jew".

    Please explain (or point to your previous notes).  What do you mean
    by "contributed to the Jewish people"?

re: .10

Your remarks on secular Israelis doesn't quite cut it.  Yes there had been a
fault in the Israeli educational system of stressing the national component
without regards to Judaism (the backbone of the national element).  When I lived
there I pointed out the fact that if I was to keep thinking of myself as just
an Israeli and not a Jew than I might as well have immigrated to Australia
and joined their army, etc.

Bu this doesn't excuse "wanderings" away from the Jewish people towards even 
something as naive-appearing as secular humanism.  To answer your claim that
secular humanist Jews have "contributed to the Jewish people", well I'm afraid
the exchange has simply been a one-way one and not in our direction.

David

re .10-11
    
    My earlier remarks on the subject were in reply to a note here, but I
    (after checking) mailed it to one of the noters (whom I am not free
    to name). I do not have the complete dialogue, nor can I post it here,
    but an excerpt (as is!) from one of my mail is below:
    
>You can probably guess that I am not a very religious person
>(actually, I should use "religiosity" here, and not "religion"),
>and I do believe that there is much more to being Jewish
>than strict observance. If we went by observance alone, 3/4ths of the 
>US Jews won't qualify as Jews! Let me be a little pompous, but to me,
>Einstein is much more Jewish than some Jewish Orthodox extremist who
>does not accept Israel's existence because "messiah didn't arrive yet" 
>(forgot the name of that group).

    I will also add that Israel was built in part upon massive European aliot
    in the first 1/2 of this century. The Judaic element was of course
    present, but a significant proportion of young, most active elements
    of Jewish settlers in the first 1/4 of the century was motivated be
    Zionist and Socialist ideals (most chalutzim for example), and not
    by religion. The first generation of Israeli leaders certainly can
    qualify as secular Jews.
    
    The WWII wave of immigrants and the recent E. European aliah brought
    in another major stream of secular Jews, and a significant number
    of mixed families. These people undoubtedly contributed to the building
    of Israel as we know it today.
    
> (in .12) Yes there had been a
>fault in the Israeli educational system of stressing the national component
>without regards to Judaism (the backbone of the national element).
    
    I do not consider that a fault. Judaism is to be credited with
    preserving the Jewish people for many centuries. It is not the sole
    element in preserving the people after the creation of Israel. Judaism
    is undoubtedly very important, but it is more vital for the Diaspora
    than it is to Israel. Please understand, I am not "knocking" Judaism.
    In the presence of State of Israel, Judaism is not a complete (in
    mathematical sense) system. Israel needs both national and religous
    components.
    
>     When I lived
>there I pointed out the fact that if I was to keep thinking of myself as just
>an Israeli and not a Jew than I might as well have immigrated to Australia
>and joined their army, etc.

    I do not see your logic here. Any person who moves to a country X and
    accepts its citizenship is subject to both the privileges and duties of X.
    Jew, Muslim, Christian, etc. (Israel is an exception wrt to Muslims)
    
    I believe that Israel is more important to the Jewish people than
    Judaic diaspora. The fate of the two are, of course connected,
    but as history teaches, it is easier to create new diasporas of
    questionable futures than it is to create Israel.
    
    Alex

>>>   Yes there had been a fault in the Israeli educational system of 
>>>   stressing the national component without regards to Judaism
>>>   (the backbone of the national element).
    
    When I attended public high school in Israel, both Tanach and Talmud 
    were required subjects.  I was (and still am) offended by the fact
    that it was impossible to graduate from high school without passing
    these subjects.  If this isn't stressing the religious Judaic
    component, what is?
    
    Steve
    

re: .14

Which high school did you go to?

David

    Re: .15
    
    Blich high school in Ramat Gan.
    
    Steve