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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

264.0. "SYMBOLS AND ICONS????" by HARPO::CACCIA () Tue Feb 03 1987 15:40

    I would like to know if there is some kind of symbol that is
    traditionally considered to represent marriage. I know that a pair
    of entwined gold bands does this but I would like something more
    positvely Jewish. 
    
    this information will be used for an art project and since I and
    my wife are both teachers in the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine
    (we are Catholic) it will also be used as part of our class material
    to demonstrate the differences AND similarities of the two faiths.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
     
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264.1ISBG::ROSENBLUHTue Feb 03 1987 17:4223
I can't think of any marriage-symbols that are so popular and ingrained
that you could be sure any Jew would recognize them, but I can think of a couple
of nice ones:

	1) a chuppah - if anything at all can be said to traditionally
	represent marriage in a Jewish context, this is it.

	2) a medieval communal bride's ring - looks like a small
	sculpture of a house with a peaked roof (a couple of inches
	tall) atop a regular round ring; was usually owned by the
	community, not an individual family, and I don't know at what
	point of the wedding it was worn. Look in any Jewish art book
	for a picture. 

	3) a ketubah (guarantor of bride's property rights in case
	of dissolution of marriage).  They are usually illuminated
	and decorated and are quite lovely.  Are a uniquely appropriate
	symbol for you to use if you want to emphasize differences, since
	by it's very nature it recognizes the possiblity of divorce.

-Kathy
     

264.2KidushinGRAMPS::LISSESD&P ShrewsburyWed Feb 04 1987 12:4245
    Re .0
    
    Hi Steve! I haven't seen you for a long time. Remember
    Toastmasters? As for an answer to your question, I'm hard pressed
    for examples of symbols or icons. I guess the reason for this is
    all forms of icons are strictly forbidden in connection with
    religious activities. Your art class will probably have to depict
    scenes from a `typical' Jewish wedding. 
    
    The Hebrew term for marriage is `kidushin', in a loose translation
    meaning a state of holiness. Since the laws of marriage are very
    complicated there is a whole volume of the Talmud devoted to
    kidushin. I'll try to summarize the whole volume into a single
    paragraph. :-)
    
    Kidushin is broken into two parts, nitoyin (the betrothal) and
    chupa (the wedding ceremony). The CH sound in chupa is a sound,
    from the Hebrew alpha-bet, that comes from the back of the throat.
    For nitoyin, the groom or chasin (that sound again) gives the
    bride or cala something of value, by todays custom it is the
    wedding ring. Then the chasin and cala are married under a canopy
    or chupa which is located out doors. Today nitoyin and chupa are
    performed at the same ceremony. However, in ancient times nitoyin
    might be arranged by the parents of two families when the children
    are still infants. Chupa would be performed when they reached
    legal age. 
    
    Two month ago I attended a Chassidic wedding in Boston. It was in
    a large hotel and there were almost 500 guests. The scene that
    stands out in my mind today is a crowd of around 200 men in black
    coats and beards lifting the chasin on a chair and dancing wildly
    around the men's side of the hall. I forgot to mention that at
    most Orthodox events, men and women are seated separately with a
    divider or mechitsa between them. It is scenes such as this that I
    find typical of Jewish weddings and might be a good subject for
    your class. 
    
    I have some general information on marriage and other aspects of
    Jewish life which I can xerox from the back of a religious
    calendar. It will probably take a few days to reach you (infernal
    mail). In the mean time, good luck in your project. 
    
    				Fred                    
     
                  
264.3Symbols; MarriageISBG::ROSENBLUHWed Feb 04 1987 14:5388
>    all forms of icons are strictly forbidden in connection with
>    religious activities

.0 didn't ask for icons, he asked for symbols.  Judaism doesn't recognise
much of a difference between 'religious activities' and 'life'.  Judaism
has certainly recognized for over 2000 years the use of certain symbols.
Two that come to mind are the menorah (7-branched candlabra), 
and the symbol of 2 lions supporting a tree of life.  

2 more problematic and recent symbols are the hexagram
(magen david, or shield of david) and the tablets of the law.
Look around you in any synagogue, and you are likely to see all of these
symbols.  True, none of these symbols have any _legal_ significance.
However, symbols are not legal signifiers, they are signifiers of a
complex of emotion, group identification, and implied meaning.

A list of objects with legal significance that have symbolic value
might start with the sandal used in halitzah, and could easily include
matzah, succah, shofar, lehem mishneh (the 2 loaves used at Sabbath meals)...
    
>    The Hebrew term for marriage is `kidushin', in a loose translation

If you want to split hairs, Kiddushin correspond to betrothal, 
'marriage' is nissuin.  It's certainly easier not to split hairs, and
let the word 'marriage' refer to the entire set of ceremonies/actions involved.
    
>    Kidushin is broken into two parts, nitoyin (the betrothal) and

What is 'nitoyin'?  Do you mean tenaim?  

Jewish law recognizes three stages of becoming married; formal engagement 
(tenaim), betrothal (kiddushin) and cohabitation (nissuin).  Western culture no
longer has a stage corresponding to betrothal, although I believe in the middle
ages it still existed.  

Tenaim (a formal engagement agreement) is entirely optional, and many 
Orthodox marriages no longer use it. [Personal opinion: Tenaim _should_ 
become more popular. It is the correct place to incorporate the modern desire
for pre-nuptial agreements, both financial and behavioristic, into the
religious process. ]

>    For nitoyin, the groom or chasin (that sound again) gives the
>    bride or cala something of value, by todays custom it is the
>    wedding ring. Then the chasin and cala are married under a canopy
>    or chupa which is located out doors. Today nitoyin and chupa are
>    performed at the same ceremony. However, in ancient times nitoyin
>    might be arranged by the parents of two families when the children
>    are still infants. Chupa would be performed when they reached
>    legal age. 
    
You are, like, badly confused.  A 'Chupa' is the place where the kiddushin
takes place, it is not itself a ceremony.  The legal activities comprising 
kiddushin that take place under that chupa is that the groom aquires 
(kinyan) the bride as a wife, in exchange for an object of value --the ring, 
and a promise in writing to feed her, clothe her, and service her 
(and some other property-related promises) -- the ketubah.  
(This is one of my favorite parts of Judaism :-) Hey all you wives out there 
who haven't gotten any lately, go read your ketubah and insist on your rights!)

The chupa is located outdoors if possible, indoors if its too inconvenient.
Hassidim in particular go to great lengths to have it outdoors, but its
not a legal requirement.

The marriage is completed when the couple have cohabited a certain
minimum length of time -- that is, have been left alone together long
enough that sexual intercourse could have occured.  This part is 
called yichud (cohabitation) and it legally comprises the 'nissuin' part
of marriage, and naturally it is not a public ceremony.  It generally
occurs between the Chupa and the obligatory family picture-taking.
Reception with chopped liver, quarter-chicken per person, sweets
table and much music and dancing, generally follows.  The legal precept
being fulfilled here is 'seudat mitzvah' - having a festive meal to
celebrate a joyous occasion.

>    I forgot to mention that at
>    most Orthodox events, men and women are seated separately with a
>    divider or mechitsa between them. It is scenes such as this that I
    
This is not, statistically speaking, true.  The percentage of Orthodox
Jews who follow this particular social extreme (separate seating
at weddings) is, I believe, much less than 50%.  

Fred, it sometimes sounds like you have learned everything you know about Orthodox
Judaism from partying with Hassids.  There's alot to be said for partying
with Hassids (they throw great parties) but...but... 
surely there are other, more,  shall we say - reliable-, sources of information
to be had.  Some of these sources are even books written by Hassidim!
264.4HARPO::CACCIAWed Feb 04 1987 16:2913
    
    
    Hey, People!! Thanks for the information so far , but , please remember
    I'm goyim. Please add a translation of the term and if possible
    a reference to a book that I might use to find a picture of what
    you are describing. Thanks again.
    
    Steve.
    
    Yes, Fred, I do remember Toastmasters but no longer have the time
    to enjoy the company of all those nice peopl. much to my regret.
    
    
264.5misteaks, misteaksLSMVAX::ROSENBLUHWed Feb 04 1987 23:2513
Steve -- Unless you have a split personality,you are a goy. Goyim is the plural.

Kathy -- (that's myself I'm talking to.  (not surprising))
	I made some errors in translating hebrew into english in .3.
	Also, I wrongly said that 'nissuim' is the same thing as yichud.
	I'm too tired to fix it.  Let somebody else do it. And other
errors too numerous to mention.  I don't have the time to straighten it
all out now, maybe over the weekend.  I shouldn't note when I'm tired. I'm sorry

Fred -- The order "Kodashim" is about sacrifices, temple rituals,
	and slaughter (of animals for food use).  Most of the material
	dealing with marriage and divorce is in the order "Nashim".

264.6Symbolic of a Jewish weddingCADSYS::RICHARDSONThu Feb 05 1987 12:5936
    In nontechnical terms, the "object" most symbolic of a Jewish wedding
    would be the chuppah (sometimes "huppah"), the canopy the bride
    and groom stand under during the ceremony.  These range from elaborate
    frameworks (usually rented to the wedding party at an exorbitant
    rate by a florist) entwined with flowers, to having someone hold
    a prayer shawl (tallis, or tallit) around or over the couple (very
    popular in Israel).  Paul and I had four friends march into the
    sanctuary ahead of us (wedding was inside - first day of spring
    five years ago, and raining) carrying four 8-foot poles (we had
    a chuppah-frame-making party!  Great fun for the people who were
    going to carry it, and then we donated it to the synagogue) with
    a very large, formal-type prayer shawl as the canopy (Paul doesn't
    normally wear that tallis as it is extremely hot and very large
    - it is wool - he usually wears it only for Yom Kippur).  After
    they set it up, we came in and stood under it.
    
    Paul's sister had one of the elaborate, flowered-wrapped ones -
    she wanted lots of flowers during her wedding (which was on the
    New Moon during Channukah, five years ago - made for a bunch of
    extra ceremony because of the holiday and the beginning of the month
    - even the rabbi had to use a prayerbook!).
    
    The last Jewish wedding I went to had a sort of a flower-encrusted
    archway set up outdoors, with Joe's (the groom) tallis as the top
    of it.
    
    Most people are not likely to have ever seen one of those house-shaped
    rings, and not everyone gets a fancy ketubah (we commissioned one
    from an artist - it hangs in our bedroom).  The other thing that
    people would commonly associate with a Jewish wedding is everyone
    dancing around carrying the bride and groom up on their shoulders
    in chairs, but not everyone does this (too bad, too - we have some
    hilarious pictures of one of Paul's uncles gritting his teeth as
    he sets his shoulder under Paul's chair to raise him up - the uncle
    probably shouldn't have been doing this much exertion, but people
    get carried away at weddings!  It's GREAT fun!).