Conference taveng::bagels

    The Israeli national anthem, the Hatikvah, was a popular 
    tune amongst the early olim that has its' origins in eastern Europe. 
    The tune is reminiscent of one used/composed by Smetna, the Czech 
    composer, in his work Ma Vlast - my country. Smetna lived in the 
    mid 19th century.
    
    The Israeli flag has its' origins from one of the first Zionist
    conferences. I think that it was Hertzal who designed it? It 
    originally consisted of six small stars in the shape of a 
    Mugain (star of) David. The stripes come from the thalith 
    (tallis or prayer shawl).
    
    Malcolm
    

    I'm not too good at this, but I'll give it a try.
                                  
    The composer of Hatikva was Imber.
    A wide-brush translation follows:
    	
    		HaTikva  -  The Hope
    
    	As long as the [thought/feeling] lives in the heart,
    	The Jewish Spirit persists [survives].
    
    	Our gaze is [forever] to the East, towards Zion.
    	Our hopes have not faded.
    	The Hope exists now for 2000 years.
    	[The Hope] to be a free people in our own land.
    	Eretz, Zion,  Jerusalem.
                            
    My apologies again.  Would a pointalist somewhere out there rescue
    me.
    Also, I dare not translate 'Eretz'.   This could compromise an entire
    topic if not a separate conference.

re: 258.1

>    Mugain (star of) David

	I think you meant shield, not star.  (i.e. It is like the symbol
on a coat of arms.)    

>    The tune is reminiscent of one used/composed by Smetna, the Czech 
>    composer, in his work Ma Vlast - my country. Smetna lived in the 
>    mid 19th century.

Smetana's famous composition is the "Moldau" (the Moladava) which is a
big river in Czech. I have the record.

About the "HaTikva" - there are some arguments about it, since it is sung
in "old" "havara ashkenazit" (putting the emphasiz on the sound BEFORE the
last in the word). This refers to the argument about Yiddish in some other
notes. I didn't mean to set any more flames, just remembered the information.

BTW - what is the correct English word for the word "sounds" (e.g., 
"afternoon" = af-ter-noon)?

Nitsan.

     re .4:
     
     Were you thinking of 'pronunciation'?
     
     Incidentally, the name 'Ma Vlast' is absolutely correct.  Ma Vlast
     is a group of several (4, I think) tone poems, of which the most
     well-known is Die Moldau.  
     
     --Mr Topaz

    	"The Moldau" ("Vltava" in Czech, I believe) is the second of the
    six tone poems that make up the symphonic cycle "Ma Vlast" by Smetana.
    "The Moldau" is often played separately.
    
    	Both the main theme of "The Moldau" and "Hatikvah" are based
    on a Czech folk song, I understand.  Smetana first presents it in
    a minor mode and, with great effect, has it appear in major at
    a climax of the piece.
    
    	There's probably a music notes file where this could be discussed
    in infinite detail.
    
    		David

    re .4:
    
    I think Nitsan is thinking of "syllable":  a single uninterrupted
    sound, according to the dictionary.
    
    "car" is one syllable,
    "motor" is two: "mo-ter"
    "gasoline" is three: "gas-o-line"
    					-John Bishop

    .2 and the following ones:
    
    Now I get the whole picture of it, except for the mysterious word
    Eretz nobody here dares to translate for me. Anyway, clue me in!
    
    What's the meaning of Eretz within the Israel's anthem context?
    And the star of David... why the name? It was first registered as
    a symbol used by David or does it have a deep meaning for you?
    And I still have a doubt: the first time the anthem was sung, was
    it in Yiddish?

>    And I still have a doubt: the first time the anthem was sung, was
>    it in Yiddish?

Well, the first time *I* sang it, which was a celebration for the birth of the
State of Israel, we sang in Hebrew.  As I remember (I was about 8 at the time),
the celebration was interrupted by news of President Truman's recognition of
the new country. 

Martin.

re:  .-2

>>>                             -< Eretz, a keyword? >-
>>>
>>>    
>>>    Now I get the whole picture of it, except for the mysterious word
>>>    Eretz nobody here dares to translate for me. Anyway, clue me in!
>>>    
>>>    What's the meaning of Eretz within the Israel's anthem context?


	Well, I'll _start_ the plunge!   :-)
	But I'm not going in deep...

	"Eretz" in Hebrew literally means "land" (as in a country).

	In real usage, frequently when one speaks of "Ha'aretz"  - literally,
	"the land" - one means "THE land", i. e., Israel.

	The concept of "Ha'aretz" is older than the Diaspora. 
	It evokes lots of emotion around the return.

	In the last line of HaTikvah, you could literally translate
	"...in the land of Zion and Jerusalem". But the message
	is a lot heavier.

	/don feinberg

re .8,.2
Literally, eretz means land.  Eretz-zion, the phrase used in the anthem,
should be translated as 'Land of Zion', not 'Eretz, Zion'.  How about:

	...to be a free people in our own land,
	in the land of Zion, in Jerusalem.

The word eretz, which literally means land-with-a-lower-case-l, is often
used to signify the Land of Israel.  A great deal of emotional and
religious significance is attached to that particular land, and the word
eretz, when used in that sense, carries loads of emotional overtones.
In terms an American might understand, 'Eretz' carries the emotional
significance of 'Flag, mother, and apple-pie' (without the slight self-mockery
involved in the American phrase).   

re .2 [Levi] - what's a pointalist?  sounds interesting.

re .4  [Nitsan] havara ashkenazit means Ashkenazi pronunciation.  
The other meaning of havara that you were looking for is syllable.

Ashkenazi pronunciation of Hebrew is different from Sephardi pronunciation.
The standard pronunciation used today in Israel is Sephardi.  The 19th and
early 20th century Zionist/Hebraist poets used Ashkenazi pronunciation.
Sephardi didn't 'win' over Ashkenazi in Israel until, like, the 20's.
One of the large differences between the two forms is
that in Sephardi, the last syllable is usually the one to receive the
major accent, and in Ashkenazi, the penultimate syllable receives the
accent.  When words are set to music, the beat of the music makes it
painfully obvious which form of pronunciation the writer was thinking in, 
and the singer is forced to reproduce that syllabic accentuation. 

So what's wrong with that, you ask?  To the
native-Hebrew-speaker's ear, Ashkenazi pronunciation 'sounds' like what
Yiddish-speaking Jews, or ghetto Jews, or religious non-Israeli Jews, use,
and none of these sorts of people have 'the right stuff'.

[Ruben]: This does NOT mean that HaTikva was originally a Yiddish song, although
certainly there is a Yiddish translation of the song, which was sung by
some people.  You just got confused by the cross-fire.  Never mind.

    ?Disk crash?  seems I put a reply here a couple of weeks ago.
    
    This is what I remember saying.
    
Kathy Rosenbluh said...
-re .8,.2
-Literally, eretz means land.  Eretz-zion, the phrase used in the anthem,
-should be translated as 'Land of Zion', not 'Eretz, Zion'.  How about:
-
-	...to be a free people in our own land,
-	in the land of Zion, in Jerusalem.

    Yes, this is an acceptable translation.  Imber may even have meant
    this in that way.  Thing is, to a person who is not 'longing for
    Zion'...since she's already there ('Ness gadol haya po'), and to
    the same person who has grown up in the Israeli school system,
    'Eretz Zion Yerushalaim' is probably received as "the Land, Zion,
    and Jerusalem".   Since I am no expert on this, this interpretation
    should be checked out via a survey; here and abroad.
    
    I hope that this interpretation is above the level of:
    "..Art's Father,  Harold be thy Name.."  :-)
                                                  
    Basically, one's point of view provides most of the meaning to the
    symbols 'Eretz' and 'Zion'.
    
-re .2 [Levi] - what's a pointalist?  sounds interesting.
    
    I have a license to abuse the English language. :-)
    Wasn't there an 'ism'  of Art called Pointalism?   Their style was
    in contrast to the  broad-stroke approach.  Vincent VanGogh, Monet?
    I did really play hookey during Art Appreciation...and English.
    I'm still sorting out between Bob Dylan and Dylan Thomas :-)
                                                       

Levi,
When your reply first appeared (before the disk crash) I entered a lengthy
reply.  I have lost my fervor and enthusiasm in the intervening weeks, but
I will try to recapitulate briefly what I said before.

I take eretz-zion in Imber's poem to be in semichut.  So there really is
no doubt about the proper translation, or about the meaning.  The notion
that people have no idea what they are saying when they sing national
anthems (or something like the "Pledge of Allegiance") is a well-documented
fact.  But that doesn't mean that their subconcsious re-interpretations
can be given any credit as 'acceptable translations'.

I cannot figure out *why* the re-interpretation into "Eretz, Zion, Jerusalem"
makes more sense from an Israeli point-of-view.  I think I am missing
something in your analysis, and I would appreciate it if you could expand
on this point.  Sounds interesting.  Anyway, even if you reinterpret the
poem this way, you are still stuck with all the other lines that talk
about longing to be a free people in our land...

And, no I don't think your proposed translation differs significantly
from the excellent example you quoted ("...Art's Father, Harold be thy Name").

Also, is the correct wording 'BE-eretz zion' or 'eretz zion'.  I think
it is the former, (making your case even weaker, of course), but I'm not sure.

The art movement you are thinking of is Pointilism.  Like Seurat. 
Your license to abuse the English language is not in question in this 
discussion. It's your license to abuse the _Hebrew_ language that we are
talking about! (Thought I'd end a sentence with a preposition, just to show
what a regular guy I am.)  

Who needs a national anthem, anyways!  That makes me think....

    If you could pick an Israeli national anthem, what would you choose?

K

    Let's focus this:
    
    In Israel (believe it or not) amongst the masses, 'ZION' plays
    second fiddle to ISRAEL.  Thus, you will hear Israelis say
    "Eretz Israel" rather than "Eretz Zion".   In other words, people
    know what 'ZION' meant 80 years ago...it doesn't carry the same
    connotation today.  For some, the connotation is even pejorative.
    
    Outside of Israel, the situation is a bit different.  "Are you
    a Zionist or not?"   Not "Are you an Isaeli or not?".   To be
    a Zionist is a weaker binding (?commitment) than to be an Israeli
    (ba'aretz).   Can you see why I said 'pejorative'?
    
    I'm also sure Imber thought of "the land of Zion".   But here that
    phrase is "jammed".  The reason is two-fold:
    
    	1.  the weak (and ambivalent) meaning of 'ZION' as stated above,
    	2.  the very strong reinforcement of 'Eretz Israel', 'Ha-aretz',
    	    the land, etc.
    
.13> But that doesn't mean that their subconcsious re-interpretations
   > can be given any credit as 'acceptable translations'.
     
    I disagree.   We are not at the same level as Art and Harold!
    'Zion' used to be the name of this area a long time ago.  Not
    today.   Imber's vision (though not ancient) is better embraced
    by Iosef Begun than by Binyamin Zeev Begin.
    
    I'm not foresaking this vision, in fact I hold it in very high
    esteem.  But the point is,  for the majority of the people who
    sing this (?do children sing this still at school every day?),
    it is questionable that they they are reverberating the 'hope to
    go to the land of Zion'.
    
    What's wrong with those same words taking on new meaning?...Now
    I understand why you asked about another national anthem...I don't
    know.
    
    Apologies if I rambled...

re .13 [Kathy]

  >  Who needs a national anthem, anyways!  That makes me think....

  >  If you could pick an Israeli national anthem, what would you choose?



 I think that Psalm 126 was once proposed as the Israeli national anthem. 

 The opening words to this Psalm are  
"Shir hamaalot, b'shuv Hashem et shivat Zion hayinu k'cholmim..." 
which may freely translate to 
"A song of the steps, when Hashem returned the captivity of 
 Zion we were like dreamers.."

 This Psalm is sung to the tune of Hatikvah at the end of the evening tfila
(prayer) on Yom Ha'atzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim (Independence Day and 
Jerusalem Day).

 Psalm 126 is also said before Birkat Hamazon (Grace after Meals) on
Shabatot and Yamim Tovim (Sabbaths and Festivals) and other joyous
occasions. In our family, we sometimes use the Hatikvah tune.

 Interestingly, Psalm 137 which begins 
"Al n'harot Bavel, sham yashavnu v'gam bachinu b'zochrenu et Zion.."
and which translates to
"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat and also wept when we remembered Zion" 
is said instead of Psalm 126 on ordinary weekdays before Birkat Hamazon.


 It all goes to show that long before Herzl, Imber, Hatikvah etc., 
the Jewish People, daily yearned with heartfelt longing, for that  
piece of land called Zion.

Jonathan Wreschner

    Psalm 137 is quite famous.
    
    Long, long time ago ... I remember someone mentioning that
    Don McClean's song reflecting Psalm 137 (the melody) was a
    preserved version of the original.   Anyone know if this is
    true?
    
    If you listen closely, it seems that the chords are quite
    irregular (relative to western music in the last 300 years).
    If McClean's piece is really a preserved melody, how was it
    recorded in history?  Anyone know the details?
    
    And like the 'Hatikva', 'By the waters of Babylon' is set in
    a minor key.   Both are of the "outside-looking-in" variety.
    So, if there is an appropriate national anthem, it should
    probably be set in major.