| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 251.1 | Most history is non-Christian | MINAR::BISHOP | | Mon Dec 15 1986 17:55 | 11 |
| The use of a tree came to the English-speaking world from
Germany with Prince Albert (Queen Victoria's husband). That
would be in the early 1800's.
In Germany I don't know when it started, but would guess that
the way a conifer is green in the depth of winter, hence alive
when all else is dead, is the origin of the symbolic use of
"christmas" trees. I'm certain it predates the arrival of
Christianity in the area.
-John Bishop
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| 251.2 | And here's where it came from in Germany... | IMNAUT::OBBARD | | Mon Dec 15 1986 22:57 | 9 |
|
In pre-Christian northern Europe, certain of the Germanic tribes
would celebrate a great victory in battle by decorating a large
tree with the internal organs of their vanquished enemies. It
has been theorized that early Christian missionaries may well
have "Christianized" this custom, as they often modified,
rather than abolished, the local customs of pagan cultures
they converted.
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| 251.3 | Christmas tree balls. | SWATT::POLIKOFF | My apple trees have no peers. | Fri Dec 19 1986 12:53 | 1 |
| reply to 251.3 about hanging victims parts on trees.
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| 251.4 | A Rabbi's Opinion | GRAMPS::LISS | ESD&P Shrewsbury | Fri Dec 19 1986 14:58 | 66 |
| The following is an excerpt from an article that was in this
morning's s.c.j. I'll post it here without comment.
Fred
****************************************************************************
"THE MENORAH OR THE TREE"
by Rabbi Roland B. Gittelson, Temple Israel, Boston.
One of the most pathetic spectacles in American Jewish life at
this time of the year is the Jew who justifies his observance of
Christmas on the ground that it is a secular, national holiday, with no
religious significance. Thought it be in a sense cruel to deprive such
a person of his reassuring rationalizations, both honestly and Jewish
self-respect require that we face Christmas honestly for what it really
is. What, then, is the real significance of those seemingly-innocent
Christmas customs with which so many of our people delight to adorn
their homes?
The Tree
Like so many other ceremonies and symbols of both Judaism and
Christianity, the Christmas Tree may have originated in pagan life. It
was soon given deeply religious significance, however, by Christianity.
It's early Christian use was based on a legend that the night Jesus was
born all the trees of the forest bloomed and bore fruit despite the
snow and ice which covered them. By more thoughtful and
theologically-minded Christians, the tree is still meant today to
symbolize the resurrection and immortality of Jesus, as well as the
wood used for the cross of crucifixion. Grim irony indeed, that Jews,
so many of whose ancestors were persecuted and perished because of their
alleged complicity in the crucifixion of Jesus, should now embrace a
symbol of that very event!
Last Refuge
A final question remains, the last refuge of the Jew who would
cling emotionally to his celebration of Christmas even after he has been
assured intellectually that its religious significance is not for him.
"But can't we Jews observe Christmas as a secular occasion, without
accepting the theology it symbolizes?" Of course we can. That's not
the real question. The real question is: Do we have a moral right
to?
What would be our reaction if any significant number of
Christians were to begin celebrating Yom Kippur, the holiest day in
our religious calendar, as a secular occasion - a day devoid of all
sacred significance, a day for unbounded hilarity and exaggerated
commercialism? What right have we to expect our devout Christian
neighbors to take any more kindly to the dilution of their most sacred
day than we would to ours?
This question - and the answer implied by its very asking - are
not imaginary on my part. Sensitive Jews, even if not compelled by an
inner integrity and self-respect to celebrate Chanuka rather than
Christmas, might well heed the advice and counsel of the CHURCHMAN
MAGAZINE, "Whatever external elements the festivals of Chanuka and
Christmas...may have in common, this fact remains: that Chanuka is
distinctly Jewish and Christmas is as distinctly Christian...This should
be remembered to the advantage of both Jew and Christian...If the season
of Chanuka and Christmas is always to be one of peace and goodwill, let
both Jew and Christian remember that they have a right to perpetuate
and preserve their particular cultural and religious mores and that any
attempts at reckless and superficial assimilation are as stupid as they
are bound to be futile."
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| 251.5 | One *very small* quibble | ARGUS::CURTIS | Dick 'Aristotle' Curtis | Tue Dec 23 1986 15:25 | 11 |
| .4:
I'd like to disagree, respectfully, with the rabbi quoted in .4.
Christmas may not be as important to some Christians as Easter is;
at least, in Roman and mediaeval times, that was the case. (And
even now, Easter is nowhere nearly as commercialized.)
That's a very minor point. His ideas seem cogent to me.
Dick
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| 251.6 | To be or not to be... | CSCMA::EINES | Wind 'em up and let 'em go! | Wed Dec 24 1986 13:13 | 19 |
| I have several Jewish friends with trees. As a Jew myself, this
bothers me. My wife is not Jewish, and this year hung ornaments
on our ficus plant. What is the difference? I can't honestly say,
but I can tell you that there is no way I would allow a tree in the house.
I am from NY, and Jewish life is alot different there. My impression
is that in the rest of the country, alot of the traditions are
"optional". That may be acceptable for our generation, but how are
our kids supposed to know what makes them Jewish? While it's
comfortable to "fit in" and share traditions with everyone else,
that translates into a loss of heritage and eventually a loss of
identity.
As the rabbi said, Christmas trees are for Christmas. If you want
to participate in the Christmas experience, that's fine. But don't
call yourself Jewish.
Fred
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| 251.7 | Not in the Xmas spirit! | GRECO::FRYDMAN | | Wed Dec 24 1986 15:36 | 115 |
| A FLAME on JEWISH IDENTITY and confused priorties follows.
Seeing that I'm writing this Dec 24th, in a 95% empty PKO
I will tend to ramble.
Please press NEXT UNSEEN if you'd rather not get involved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's go through this slowly...
.6>I have several Jewish friends with [Xmas] trees. As a Jew myself, this
.6>bothers me.
We agree, so far.
.6> My wife is not Jewish, and this year hung ornaments
.6> on our ficus plant.
Both parts of this statement sadden me. Even though you have
the right to marry the person of your choice and that she probably
is a wonderful and loving wife...in terms of the continuation
of the Jewish people this situation presents a problem.
.6> What is the difference? I can't honestly say, but I can tell
you that there is no way I would allow a tree in the house.
^^^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^
^^^^
A non-Jew for 365 days a year...YES;
a tree for a week and a half... "there is no way"!!
I don't understand this reasoning.
.6> I am from NY, and Jewish life is alot different there. My impression
.6> is that in the rest of the country, alot of the traditions are
.6> "optional".
I am NOT from New York, and I've found that "Jewish" life is
not that much different around the country. People have just
decided for themselves what "being a JEW' means. Twentieth
Century Judaism can be characterized as "cafeteria-style"
Judaism---people feel that they can pick-and-chose those mitzvot
and "traditions" which are "meaningful" for them, now and then
chose others later. For some it means love of Israel (Zionism),
for others it means giving to Jewish Philanthropies (Tzedakkah),
for some it means bagels, real rye bread with the hard crust,
gefilte fish and kugel. For some it means a spiritual connection
to the Creator of the Universe through the following of
"traditions". Things are not "optional" just "relative".
[ I do not want to restart the "Who is a Jew" debate here
(look to other notes in this conference for that). ]
.6> That may be acceptable for our generation, but how are
.6> our kids supposed to know what makes them Jewish?
That's a very important question. If most of "our
generation" finds "traditions" <read this as "Torah based
Judaism"> optional, then, I believe, we have a problem. If
we don't understand, all we can give to our children is confusion
or the feeling that the question is unimportant. Though,
I do have a feeling that non-Jewish wives who hang Xmas
decorations on ficus trees are not part of the solution.
.6> While it's comfortable to "fit in" and share traditions with
.6> everyone else, that translates into a loss of heritage
.6> and eventually a loss of identity.
I agree, but only if you feel that the heritage really is unique.
I believe that it is, and that we, AS JEWS, have a particular mission
in G-d's creation---not a BETTER or SUPERIOR mission, just OUR
mission. Maintaining the "identity" is not simple. It is an
active, daily process often frustrated and compromised by the
demands of the non-Jewish world. Part of our mission/challenge
is to overcome these obstacles and still remain Jewish.
.6> As the rabbi said, Christmas trees are for Christmas. If you want
.6> to participate in the Christmas experience, that's fine.
.6> But don't call yourself Jewish.
Is THIS where we draw the line??
Help me understand this,fellow Bagelers...
One can:
Forget Shabbos
Eat treif
Disparage the use of the Mikvah
Marry non-Jews
Give children limited Jewish Education
Live a life that if an observer followed you
around for a few weeks would be indistinguishable
from your non-Jewish neighbors...
BUT bring in a "tree", then "don't call yourself Jewish"
There is a relationship between non-observance of Torah
and the eventual "loss of identity". I am NOT a "narrow
minded Frummie". I'm just a student of Jewish history and
an observer of our culture.
How can we remain Jewish, if we don't DO anything Jewish??
Judaism is not a religion of what we DON'T DO it's a way
of life based on what we DO---how we ACT.
Maybe I could get some bumper stickers made up along the
lines of the "Have you hugged your child today?" ones.
They would ask:
=========================================
| |
| HAVE YOU DONE ANYTHING JEWISH TODAY? |
| |
=========================================
'nuf said. THis should keep this note going for a while.
---Av
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| 251.8 | | CALLME::MR_TOPAZ | Wicked Chicken | Wed Dec 24 1986 16:08 | 14 |
| re .6:
> ...there is no way I would allow a tree in the house.
This sounds open-minded. One can only guess what your wife would
say if you wanted to light a menorah ... or don't you let her have
a say in this sort of thing?
> But don't call yourself Jewish.
Who appointed you as the one who decides who can or cannot call him or
herself Jewish?
--Mr Topaz
|
| 251.9 | What is the mission? | PIXEL::BRIAN | Brian Simons - DPS / Graphics | Sat Dec 27 1986 09:04 | 14 |
| .7 > I agree, but only if you feel that the heritage really is unique.
.7 > I believe that it is, and that we, AS JEWS, have a particular mission
.7 > in G-d's creation---not a BETTER or SUPERIOR mission, just OUR
.7 > mission. Maintaining the "identity" is not simple. It is an
.7 > active, daily process often frustrated and compromised by the
.7 > demands of the non-Jewish world. Part of our mission/challenge
.7 > is to overcome these obstacles and still remain Jewish.
Since I'm a Gentile, and you're a student of Jewish culture and history,
I wonder if you could give me your ideas as to what the Jewish mission is?
Is it a G-d-given mission? (Do other notes discuss this topic?)
Thanks,
bs
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| 251.10 | Consider this... | USWAV1::DAVIS | Andrew J. Davis | Sun Dec 28 1986 20:10 | 53 |
|
.6> While it's comfortable to "fit in" and share traditions with
.6> everyone else, that translates into a loss of heritage
.6> and eventually a loss of identity.
.7> I agree, but only if you feel that the heritage really is unique.
.7> I believe that it is, and that we, AS JEWS, have a particular mission
.7> in G-d's creation---not a BETTER or SUPERIOR mission, just OUR
.7> mission. Maintaining the "identity" is not simple. It is an
.7> active, daily process often frustrated and compromised by the
.7> demands of the non-Jewish world. Part of our mission/challenge
.7> is to overcome these obstacles and still remain Jewish.
I agree, but...
Defining one's heritage is possible, defining one's MISSION, on the
other hand, can be quite difficult. I don't think that any one
person is able to justifiably define what the Jewish mission in the
world is.
.6> As the rabbi said, Christmas trees are for Christmas. If you want
.6> to participate in the Christmas experience, that's fine.
.6> But don't call yourself Jewish.
.7> Is THIS where we draw the line??
.7> Help me understand this,fellow Bagelers...
.7> One can:
.7> Forget Shabbos
.7> Eat treif
.7> Disparage the use of the Mikvah
.7> Marry non-Jews
.7> Give children limited Jewish Education
.7> Live a life that if an observer followed you
.7> around for a few weeks would be indistinguishable
.7> from your non-Jewish neighbors...
.7> BUT bring in a "tree", then "don't call yourself Jewish"
.7> There is a relationship between non-observance of Torah
.7> and the eventual "loss of identity". I am NOT a "narrow
.7> minded Frummie". I'm just a student of Jewish history and
.7> an observer of our culture.
.7> How can we remain Jewish, if we don't DO anything Jewish??
.7> Judaism is not a religion of what we DON'T DO it's a way
.7> of life based on what we DO---how we ACT.
All of your points here are quite valid, however, forgetting
shabbos, eating treif, giving children limited Jewish education,
even marrying non-Jews does not NOT make you Jewish. Bringing
a tree into one's home does.
Andrew
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| 251.11 | New York Jews are different, they are ARROGANT! | ZEPPO::MAHLER | In the basement? Go up and check! - M.C. Escher | Sun Dec 28 1986 22:13 | 55 |
|
Well, a note I have ben meaning to start and never
knew quite how to start it has been started.
Sooner or later this issue of Who is a Jew seems
to pop up in this file in certain topics that address
closely related issues. Again, the issue of Jewish
Heritage Vs. Jewish Religion pops into my mind and
just coming back from New York seems to put me in a
mood to rifle this situation.
Since I was a child my parents have been hovering
over my every move in regards to preserving the
Jewish tradition and religion. What has happened
is that I was force fed Hebrew school and various
rituals that did not seem to make sense to me because
they were not taught to me but rather lectured to
me by rabbi's, cantors and parents. Constantly I
was always told of the importance of marrying Jewish
and 'keeping the faith' and I began to resent this.
More significant is the US Vs. THEM attitude towards
[what some refer to as] goyim and the predjudice
associated with this. Eventually what was pride in
me tainted and I began to see that what my parents
thought was pride is bigotry and all I could think
of was how this propagated from a nation and people
that have been subjegated through the centuries and
how we should be the LAST people to criticize another
race, creed or nationality.
Having dated many non-jewish women, I can say that I
have met a very broad spectrum of ideologies -- from
anti-semitic families to ones that wanted to know all
about my heritage and showed genuin interest and
open-mindedness. I don't know what causes[d] this, but
why is it that there is this severe hatred of
Catholic/Christian customs ? Why is it that I can see
a Bhudda that someone bought in India/Japan in thier
living room but put a Xmas tree there and all heck
breaks out?
Perhaps you are wondering why I started this file
over a year ago [I'll tell you anyway!].
I wanted to learn more about a heritage that my
parents and family did not teach, and what I have
learned from all of you is substantial and I treasure
it. There are a great many people reading this file
from various backrounds and points-of-view and we
have a unique opportunity to bridge many gaps and destroy
many WIDELY held fallacies about Jews and our customs.
Use it.
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| 251.12 | Go further from New York... | YOUNG::YOUNG | | Mon Dec 29 1986 12:14 | 8 |
| If bringing a tree into your home makes you not Jewish, then there
are no Jews in Quito, Ecuador. They all have "Chanukah Trees".
Things are a bit different when you live in a Catholic country
where there are only a thousand Jews. They also don't have a rabbi;
for the High Holidays they bring one in from New York.
Paul
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| 251.13 | Living as symbolism | CSCMA::SEIDMAN | Aaron Seidman | Mon Dec 29 1986 12:36 | 45 |
| re: .7
> How can we remain Jewish, if we don't DO anything Jewish??
> Judaism is not a religion of what we DON'T DO it's a way
> of life based on what we DO---how we ACT.
Emphatically yes! There are a variety of ways in which people practice
their Judaism, and different movements emphasize different aspects, but
the common thread is that all branches stress the importance of DOING.
If being Jewish is important, then it has to show up in the way
one lives every day. It is not a matter of particular rituals (hold still,
I'll come back to that) and in particular it is not a matter of doing things
"for the children."
It is a peculiar thing about us that, although we have many symbols,
it has been, historically, the way in which we live our lives that has provided
the most important symbolism of all.
<Moderate Flame to follow>
Ritual can be an important factor in transmitting one's values and
concern for educating one's children can spur one to examine life and behavior,
but ultimately there has to be a sense that one WANTS to be Jewish.
I have seen enough nominally ortho/cons/reform/recons/etc. Jews who
did not care, and enough committed Jews of various persuasions (and so far I am
just talking about my own relatives) that I am sceptical of arguments that one
particular branch has the Truth. What I have seen is that those who are
committed to living a Jewish life are different from those who are not. I may
argue with my cousin the Lubavitcher hasid or with my other cousin the Reform
rabbi about what Jews should or should not do, but there is mutual respect
among us because we each know that the others care, and try to live their lives
accordingly.
Frankly, I do not see that a "tree" or any other particular object
is the critical issue (Indeed, if a non-Jewish spouse wants to do something
like that, it says something about what that person cares about). If one
lives as a Jew, then these things have a way of resolving themselves (sometimes
happily and, unfortunately, sometimes not), and if one does not live Jewishly--
however that happens to be defined in a particular case--does it matter
what symbolism one has at home?
Aaron
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| 251.14 | Happy Chanukah Xmas Tree | NERDS::SAREN | Joel Saren - DTN 274-6719, Node=Nerds | Tue Dec 30 1986 15:06 | 52 |
| I assume I am welcome to join this conference as new to Digital
and have just unraveled the mysteries of 'notes'.
Of course in scanning the available conferences a Jew has to stop
at Bagels, naturally.
Enough of the goody stuff!
I am a devote Jew, former member Board of Directors, Charter Member
of another, none of which makes me more religious or devote tna
than the next Jew. But the Christmas tree issue has certainly sparked
my interest.
Background: Born Brooklyn Jewish Hospital too long ago to mention.
Raised in a second generation American Jew envirionment. My
grandparents came from Russia and Austria, my parentw were raised
in hell's kitchen(NYC).
We all became Americanized on Long Island in little Israel, Levittown.
Even then my parents had the dilemma of Chanukah bushes or Christmas
Tree. We once had a Chanukah bush with Macabee sacks?????
We had Macabee Sacks on our fireplace!
Does any of this make any of us less Jewish?
I am not married to a Jew. My children are being raised Jewish.
But inasmuch as my wife is a Christian(of sorts) we respect her
beliefs and she respects mine and endorses my rights and my childrens
to be raised Jewish inspite of the Judaic tradition that a child
is the religion of the mother. Shall we get into the whole can
of crap about who is the legal guardian, etc.
In my home we say, at every meal, Ah motzie... and we celebrate
with great reverence Passover, Shabot, Yom Kippur and Chanukah we
also have a tree decorated and presents wrapped with Chanukah as
well as holiday and Seasons Greeting and Christmas under the tree.
You are probably absolutely correct that the tree symbolizes
Christianity, but in my home is symbolizes a happy holiday, ST.
NICK(if you choose)(I never could understand why Santa didn't come
to my home).
I could easily live without the tree, but if my wife and kids want
one, they got it. What difference does it make as long as we continue
to teach Shoma Ysroale...adonoy echod.
Chrisianity is not alive and well in my home, Judaism is!
Lastly as far as the response about preserving Judaism, I married
a non-Jew and begat 2 Jews. That's preserving.
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