Conference taveng::bagels

    Pardon my ignorance. I know about Spielberg...but who is 
    Fievel Mousekowitz...honestly?   I am guessing it is a
    character from Spielbergs's latest movie.
    
    It may be showing, but I admit I've seen only one movie
    in the last year.  "Back to the Future".   My excuse is
    that our babysitter moved.
    
    Fred or whoever, please do let us know what this is all about.

    Does anyone know what the story line in the film is?
    
    As for McDonalds, you should see what Sears has in Fievel items.
    How about Fievel Mousekowitz Christmas stockings.
    
    WS
    

    I haven't seen the movie yet, so perhaps someone who has can
    explain it better. The movie is a full length cartoon called
    "Fievel Mousekowitz, An American Tale". The main character is a
    Jewish mouse who leaves Russia to escape the Czar's tyranny. From
    what I understand, it's a good family movie.
    
    			Fred

    Interesting...but...
    
    Is this Mousekowitz character the successor to  Smurfs
    and CabbagePatch people.   If so,  then this Xmas will be very
    exciting...
    
    BTW:
    This year Chanuka aleph is 'Kaf-Hay-Cheshvan' or 16 December.
    So the intersection between the two holidays is quite close.

    Yes Fred, Spielberg's latest character seems to be attempting to
    be the latest commercial hit of the "holiday" season.  By the way,
    the story line of the movie is that Fievel and his family escape
    to America, a land where there are no cats.
    
    Spielberg is only following the societal line that seems to try
    to mesh the two holidays together
    
    McDreck's is supposedly frying their fries in vegetable oil(or is
    that Burger King?).
    
    David

    Re .5 
    
    Of course! I should have known there are no cats in America. I'm sure
    some of our grand parents thought the streets were paved with gold. :-) 
    
    Several months ago AP news reported that McDonalds was using LARD and
    other animal fats to cook their fries. McDonalds would not comment. 
    
    			Fred

    	McDonalds uses a combination animal/vegetable shortening for
    frying.  I once got a pamphlet in which they extol the goodness
    of their ingredients, and they were quite proud of that.  (Their
    buns also use animal fat.)  I believe it is Burger King that uses
    vegetable oil for frying, though I doubt that would satisfy anybody
    who is serious about kashrut.
    
    	Now, about the movie, I am no fan of Spielberg, but I don't
    think he is primarily responsible for the commercial Xmas ripoffs
    that it has spawned.  Any movie's producer must attempt to maximize 
    the income it generates, and I'm not sure how much control he (or
    whoever the producer is) would retain once they sold the right to use
    the characters to McDonalds or whoever.  I personally think the ad
    campaign is just plain silly. 
    
    			David

Re: .4

I believe that the first night of Chanukah is December 26th NOT December 16th,
(no ill-intent implied).  This places the intersection of the holidays at an
even closer date, thereby making the issue even more poignant.

Andrew

    re: the coinciding of the dates of Chanukah & Xmouse (:-)
    
    I remember once I had to go to Miluim(reserves) on Dec.25, which
    also was the 1st day of Chanukah that year.
    
    David

    I wonder if the idea of using a mouse to tell the story of Feivel
    was based on the book _Maus_, by Art Spiegelman, which uses mice
    to represent Jews, cats as Nazis, and pigs as Christian Poles to
    tell the story of a Holocaust survivor and his son.
    
    Plug:  I read the book (in the format of a comic book) while home
    for Thanksgiving.  It's a very good book, and should be indispensible
    for introducing children to the events of the Holocaust.
    
    Dave

RE: < Note 240.0 by GRAMPS::LISS "ESD&P Shrewsbury" >
 
>                                                  First he is giving
>    the erroneous image that Chanuka and Christmas are some how
>    related.


	Although I share some of feelings about the tendency toward a
Chanumas/Christnuka holiday, the fact is they probably are related.
Historically, there is no good evidence that a) the rededication of the
Temple took place on the 25th of Kislev or that b)Jesus was born on the
25th of December.  There was a popular winter solstice holiday (Saturnalia?)
that was celebrated in the Roman empire and I suspect that both the
rabbis and the church fathers were concerned that too many people were
celebrating it.  If they were going to insist on having a holiday, better
they should...(etc.).


					Aaron

    
.11 - Good point!  This is pretty much believed with Xmas but never
      thought that the same could be applied to Chanuka.

On the movie -
              
    Not that this is the MOVIES conference, but a little more on 'A
    Christmas Tale' (Tail?) by Speilberg.  I haven't seen it but those
    to Chicago Movie Critics ('At the Movies?') gave it a "thumbs down" 
    for a varity of reasons, which were (as I remember) -
    
  - The leading mouse was from a Russian Jewish family.  I beleive
    the family was running from the Bolshviks (sp?).  The movie never 
    really states why their house was burnt down, why the family was 
    running away (besides that America didn't have any cats) and never 
    touch on the fact that it was a Jewish family.
    
  - The movie stereotyped almost every other ethnic group - The dishonest
    Irish politican, an Italian thug (a rat).  I forgot what the cockroach
    was.  There were some other examples.
    
  - The movie wasn't happy.  They said it was full of sappy sad songs
    and this mouse running around tring to find his parents while ervyone
    was taking advantage of him.  The only funny part was Dom DeLuses
    (sorry, a speller I am not) playing a vegitarian cat.
                                                         
    
    I may go.  The animation is suppose to be the best in years (who
    else can afford it?), but my expectations are low.  
    
    garrett

    Well, my three girls have been bugging me for weeks to take them,
    so off to the movies we go this weekend...
    
    I did not know the mouse was Jewish (and probably never would have
    known) had I not read it here.  Not that I am on the ignorant side
    of the house, but if I don't know, there are probably millions of
    Americans who don't know.
    
    I guess Micky D's (or Mac and Dons steak house, depending on how
    rich you feel today :-)...) decided to cash in on the children of
    today wanting to get the mouse in the movies.  I mean, Burger King
    has Thunder Cats, why not Micky D's having the mouse?????  After
    all, the care-bears, the popples, the furskin bears, and heaven
    forbid the Cabbage Patch kids have already been taken.
    
    I don't see the co-orlation between it and Christmas or Hanukkah...
    excaept that if you buy the $5.00 gift certificates from Micky D's
    you get a stocking with the mouse on it, and a five dollar cents
    off coupon for the mouse at Sears....
    
    GLK

    The way *I* understand the different relationships to Saturnalia
    is this:
    
    Saturnalia is a festival to celebrate the return of the sun, and
    to account for those few days which cause a difference of opinion
    between lunar and solar calendars.
    
    Mithra[s] was the most popular/familiar dying and rising god of
    the Roman Empire.  He was born with the rebirth of the sun (the
    winter solstice); his birthday was celebrated on December 25th.
    
    Chanukah's form was *deliberately* made with reference to Saturnalia,
    as a way for the Jews to thumb their noses at the Romans.
    
    Although Jesus was the sort of d&r god who was born with the rebirth
    of growth (the vernal equinox), the early Christians found the
    worship of Mithra too strong to ignore, so they pre-empted his
    day for their own.
    
    So, yes, the two celebrations are related -- via the solstice --
    but the motivations were different.  (At least that's my impression.)
    
    							Ann B.

re: 240.14 
    
>    So, yes, the two celebrations are related -- via the solstice --
>    but the motivations were different.
    
	I agree, that the circumstances differed somewhat, but I think
	that your description (thanks, I learned something) confirms
	that the motivation was pretty similar -- to make a Roman holiday
	into a Jewish/Christian holiday.

	(If you are saying that the Jews patterned Chanukah on Saturnalia
	in the _absence_ of observance of the latter by Jews, I would be
	skeptical; there are many things that we have adopted from
	surrounding cultures without acknowledging source or reason.
	Given the antagonism between Pharisees/Rabbis and the Hasmoneans,
	I doubt if Chanukah would have been given legitimacy unless it
	were needed for other reasons.)

				Aaron

    re: -~n	There's a *MOVIE* conference?
    
    re: -~m	(The correlation Chanukka/Xmas/Pagan-worship)
    		But wasn't Mithra (Mousra :-) a Persian figure?
    		Pagan is relative.   The Church worried that
    		the celebration of Mithra's birthday was so
    		popular that Christian values would erode.
    		That is why they simply made JC's birthday
    		coincide with Mithra's birthday.
    
    		As far as the Hasmonean (Hasmousean :-) incident
    		(it was in Ma'ariv wasn't it?) I find it hard to believe
    		that this was fudged.   But I'm willing to hear an
    		argument.                                   
    
    re: Fievel and plot.  Thanks for filling in some details for us
    	foreigners.
    	

    Re: .8 by USWAV1::DAVIS  about Chanuka is December 26th and not
    	December 16th.  My mistake.  The date I gave is for next year.

    re .17:
    
    I always said that you were a man ahead of your time :-)

    Well, Bob, the girls and I attended the American Tail on Saturday..
    it was a "cute" movie, and you could tell Steinberg (or whoever
    that guy is) did the movie, because of the work with lights.
    
    I "missed" all of the jewish overtones in the movie, not being Jewish,
    but Bob saw them and pointed them out to me, starting with Feivel
    in Jewish meaning Phillip in English...
    
    I say for any who have worries there are really none.  The movie
    is just a cute movie for kids, about a mouse washed aboard a ship,
    how he arrives in NY in a bottle, how he is be-friended by another
    mouse, how he helps "outsmart" the cats in NY (There are NO cats
    in America is a cute song), and how a cat (played by Dom Deloise
    [name and spelling???]) helped his parents find him.
    
    I even heard a brooklyn accent for the first time in my life in
    the movie - had Bob not been by me, I would have missed knowing
    it was a brooklyn accent.
    
    It was cute though...
    
    and remember:
    
    Never say never!
    
    GLK

    	Christmas IS directly associated with Chanukah. December 25
    is the day the 3 wise men brought Chanukah gifts to baby Jesus
    and the Christians have been celebrating Chanukah ever since.

re .-1

>by SWATT::POLIKOFF "My apple trees have no peers." >
>                        -< No one knows the exact date >-

>    	Christmas IS directly associated with Chanukah. December 25
>    is the day the 3 wise men brought Chanukah gifts to baby Jesus
>    and the Christians have been celebrating Chanukah ever since.

Where do you get this stuff from?  Was there supposed to be a smiley
face at the bottom of your posting?  Do you have some evidence for
this or is it merely (you should pardon the expression) your opinion?

My understanding of the current non-American Jewish custom for Hanuka,
is that we give presents of money (preferrably coins, silver dollars
for example) to little kids, whence the expression "Hanuka gelt".
In America, I suppose in order to prevent their kids from being overly
envious of the haul that their non-Jewish peers receive from Sam the
Claws, many Jewish parents give their kids major material goods.

I will probably get flamed for being anti-progress and a wet blanket,
but the concept of institutionalized major gift-giving to all the
important people in your life in conjunction with Hanuka just is not 
a Jewish thing. 

    	In my childhood I was told that all the gift giving to baby
    Jesus was because it was Chanukah. Like I said in the title, who
    knows the exact date or the exact circumstances.
    	Also Easter is associated with Passover because Jesus plus his
    deciples were at the Seder table and the early Christians still celebrated
    the Jewish holidays.

    
    re: .22
    
    > In my childhood I was told that all the gift giving to baby Jesus
    > was because it was Chanukah.
    
    You were very seriously misled as a child. Giving gifts at Chanukah
    is a fairly recent (i.e. 20th century) custom developed by American
    Jews to keep the Jewish children from becoming jealous during the
    Christmas season.
    
    Your association of Easter with Passover is correct, though. Keep
    in mind, however, that Passover was around long before Easter existed.
    
    I've been reading the other responses to this note, also, and I
    think many of you are trying to mix apples and oranges. Chanukah
    is the celebration of the rededication of the temple after the
    Maccabee's (sp?) defeated the Syrians in the war, while Christmas
    is the celebration of the birth of Christ. While the fact that the
    two holidays fall at almost the exactly same time of year may not
    be totally conincidental, the two holidays are completely different
    and are celebrated for completely different reasons. 
    
    Mike

    Let's lighten up a bit here people!  This has turned into debate
    as to who is a bigger assimilationist.
    
    Needless to say that I am one Jew who when he is in this country
    at Christmastime, usually can be found in a mildly agitated state.
    As a rule I don't come out of this state until the night of the
    25th when most of the propaganda has ceased.
    
    When I started to visit my then future in-laws, I found that they
    have a tradition of having a goose, and then exchanging presents.
    Well I flipped out when I first experienced this, found it extremely
    weird that Jews would do such a thing.  But then my in-laws are
    Yekkies (German Jews), and I suppose it's natural to them.  Through
    the years I've learned to accept it as an innocuous ritual, and
    I don't think that it has affected my consciousness as a Jew in
    the least.
    
    No, the baby jesus was not brought Chanukah gifts, that theory is
    a lot of bull feathers.
    
    David

    One of my Russian Jewish co-workers reports that when he came over,
    he missed the tree.  In Russia, it's a secular New Year's thing,
    so Jews have them too.  (Of course everything is supposed to be
    secular over there...)
    
    It would have been hard for "Baby Jesus" to have received Hanuka
    presents when he was born, since he was born in October (according
    to historical evidence).  I don't know when the Maccabean war ended,
    but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't even close to Saturnalia,
    but the holiday (like Christmas) got shifted.

	A question about hanukah gelt --  Why is there any gift giving
	at all, including gelt?  When did the hanukah gelt (not
	the american gift giving) custom get started?

				Eileen Samberg

    re .23
    	Oh my god!!! Do you mean the the tooth fairy is not real. I'm
    devastated.

    This seems to be the conference and this seems to be the time for
    
    asking an important question:
    
    Where can I obtain, in the Acton-Boston area, a six-pack of 
    Maccabee beer?
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Herb

    
    re .27
    
    Good comeback!!!

    Isn't it great how these notes can go meandering off in any number
    of tangents?
    
    re:.28
    
    Maccabee beer can be had at Savenor's on the Cambridge-Somerville
    line.  Kappy's liquors was also stocking it for a while.
    
    David

    
    
    	Gelt is given so as to keep the money
    	in the family line.  This is why children
    	never give any back to parents because they
    	would die with it.
    
    

    	<Gelt is given so as to keep the money		>
    	<in the family line.  This is why children	>
    	<never give any back to parents because they	>
    	<would die with it.				>

	But why on hanukah?  I was guessing it also was
	connecting to giving charity on holidays.
    
    

    I thought that gelt was given on Chanukah so the kids would have
    something to play dreidel with.  I'm used to thinking of Chanukah
    gelt as foil covered chocolate "coins".  The game goes on until
    everyone's eaten their winnings (or is too full to do so).
    
    				Paul
    

    Y'a know, this is the second time we've discussed this subject.
    The only difference is the names of the participants. See note
    53.0 for Mike's scholarly dissertation on Chanuka. 
    
    			Fred