Conference taveng::bagels

    
    
    
    	There is nothing wrong with discussing the various
    	aspects of Judaism.  This may serve to provide insight
    	(For Jews and Non-Jews alike) into the various
    	sects of Judaism.  
    
    	Trust me, bashing will not be permitted, this is
    	to discuss WHY there are Reform, Conservative
    	and Orthodox Jews.
    
    

    > Trust me, bashing will not be permitted.
    
    Ok Mike, I trust you completely.
    
    David

    That's the subject where I am really ignorant.  I had a lot of
    arguments with my orthodox friends, a Framingham Rabbi (one of them),
    etc.  Basic information will be very useful as the first step.
    
    Leo

    Mike, when did you stop beating your concubine?
    
    These are not "degrees" of Judaism.  Freemasonry has "degrees".
     UMass issues them too.  Reform, Conservative and Orthodox are sects,
    not degrees.  They are more like the Methodist, Baptist and
    Presbetyrian churches:  All are Christian and Protestant to boot,
    but they have some different teachings and practices.
    
    One can be non-observant and Orthodox (by membership); one can be
    observant and Reform.  Of course, the Reform definition of observant
    is different from the Orthodox one, but the same applies to other
    sectarian differences, as among Protestants.
    
    This was covered in an early topic, "Conservative isn't just a
    compromise."  Sorry I didn't do a Dir/Title=  to find it.
            fred

    re. -1:
    
    I'm not sure that I totally agree with Mike that Orthodox,
    Conseravative, and Reform are degrees, but I firmly disagree that
    they are sects.
    
>   One can be non-observant and Orthodox (by membership); 
    
    This is absurd. This whole idea of "membership" is an American idea
    and has no basis whatsoever.
    
>   one can be  observant and Reform. 
    
    So is this. It's like being a lawabiding thief. 

    
    
    Cb.    
    

Excuse me, but I'm not waht you call 'Orthodox', neither am I what you call
'Conservative' or 'Reform'. My ID card says I'm a jew. Is there a contradiction?

Nitsan

In America, you can join the club.

Orthodox rabbis are ordained by certain organizations, and belong to them.

The United Synagogue of America is the group which includes Conservative
shuls.  They have an affiliated seminary.

Reform rabbis are members of the Central Conference of American Rabbis,
and the temples belong to the Union of American Hebrew Congregations.

You can do as you please and pay dues, and you're a member.  Such is not
the case with all shuls (especially Hasidic, which have their own various
organizations), but it's pretty much the reality.

Reform and Conservative take different views of how Halacha is made and
changed.  So being observant has different meanings.  Yeah, it's easier. 
But we don't feel guilty about not being Orthopractic.

    re:.5
    
    Chaim, when I lived in the Israel I accepted the "all or nothing
    at all" philosophy.  That is, that if you weren't Dati, then you
    are a heathen secularist.  I went along with this and even promoted
    this way of life to people who came to visit from outside the country.
    The problem is that there isn't any thought behind this, rather
    a blind acceptance of a way of life that has it's origins in the
    stetls of Eastern Europe.
    
    It could only benefit Israel if more people became more inquisitive
    about the religion, and started to find the middle ground which
    the Conservative movement has attempted to do here in America. 
    There is nothing wrong with being an Aphikorus, that is one who
    questions the status quo, etc.  After all the word is the name of
    that curious Greek philosopher, Epicurus.
    
    If the power of the Orthodox establishment were to be diminished,
    and a middle movement was to have some influence, than this could
    influence some(and I emphasize SOME) North American Jews to make
    aliyah.  The inflexibility and downright fascism of the Orthodox
    establishment serves only to be another factor in making aliyah
    an unattractive option.  
    
    Now I am not so naive as to beleive that North American Jews would
    come in droves to Israel if the Orthodox would lose their power.
    There are several reasons why the aliyah movement from here is a
    joke.  But when Rav Goren states publicly that there isn't Chofesh
    Hapulchan - Freedom of Worship, in Israel, well that can only turn
    more people off to living in Israel.
    
    David
    
     

    Re .4
    
    There are NO sects in Judaism! The difference between the three
    movements is one of levels of observance. There is a medrash that
    tells us the neshuma of every Jew that ever was and every Jew that
    ever will be were standing side by side when the torah was given
    to Moshe. For those people who prefer the mystical side of
    Judaism, the Tanya of R. Shnear Zolman speaks of how all these
    neshumas were originally part of one great neshuma. The neshuma of
    Adam, the original man. Each one came from a different part of his
    body and had corresponding characteristics. This accounted for
    their different lot in life once they were born. 
    
    I am a strong believer in the idea that "Jews are responsible, one
    for another" Our heritage tells us "do not do to others what is
    hateful to you". I know what is right for me and I have no
    intention of imposing my views on anyone else. 
    
    FLAME ON
    
    What pisses me off is when Jews throw (verbal) stones at each
    other. The reform don't like the orthodox and the orthodox don't
    like the reform. The unfortunate conservatives, who are caught in
    the middle, get beat up by everyone. I've even discovered the
    orthodox and Chassidim don't get along too well. To make matters
    worse Chassidic movements violently disagree with each other. 
    
    Why is there all this fighting? Why is there all this hate? No
    wonder our enemies get the best of us. All they have to do is sit
    back and we will destroy ourselves! 
                                                     
    FLAME OFF
    
    Let's not use this note to criticize each other. Let's use the
    rest of this note to tell why we chose our particular movement and
    what we like about it. Don't say why you think it's better than
    another movement. Don't even dream about saying what's wrong with
    the other groups. We are all Jews, now let's try to be 'chavarim'. 
    
    			Shalom,
    				Fred
     
                                                                  

How come when Fred (with a capital F) speaks, he says that there are
no sects, just people who are right (like him) and shmucks like me who
don't do the right thing?  That's what it sounds like to me!

There is one Jewish people.  There are different, closely related 
religious sects which all come from the same Torah, but which interpret
it differently.  Certain people believe that their own sect is the One
True Religion for the Jews and therefore, the others are simply
inferior in their observance.  I do not share that belief.  Mr. Liss and
his friends are free to do as they wish, with my blessing.  I simply
don't choose to feel like less of a Jew because I disagree with the 
correctness of having a written draft of the Oral Law treated as 
if it were the Written Law, etc.

Some folks are just _too_ sanctimonious to make their point.
      fred

May I humbly request that the debate deal with issues and not
individuals, and, especially, without disrespect to our collegues
and fellow Jews.

Martin

    Why is it that the Rabbis don't get together and form a Sanhedrian?
    We have enough learned Rabbis around who could do this. The 'orthordox'
    view is that reform/conservative are wrong to disobey/ change the law. 
    They also say that their power is only in interperation. Judaism has
    changed a lot since Sinai. It would not be against the tradition
    for it to change some more.
         
    Malcolm

    I notice that when it became clear that the majority favored no
    back biting discussion stopped.    It's a pity, because, me, I
    am a bit curious as to why one would choose Orthodox (particularly
    if one is female).   I am a devout Reform Jew.   When I was about
    seven, my mother, who was just divorced, attempted to join the 
    Orthodox synagogue in town (the only synagogue in town!).   She
    was told that she could join in the name of her 13 year old son.
    
    That, of course, led her to search for alternatives.   Her search
    led our whole family to Reform.     So, that is background as to
    how I first met Reform.   Why am I drawn to it and what do I like
    about it?    Actually, the ideals of freedom and justice--the mitzvot.
    I can question anything and I am taught at services *to* question.
    I remember during one sermon my rabbi suddenly asked us the
    congregation why Joseph (of the coat of many colors story) has so
    much space devoted to his story and why is he called a tzaddi (Abraham
    isn't called a tzaddi!)?    And so, we all thought and discussed
    it.    And I know that is why I am drawn to Reform: it encourages
    me to think.    It does not hold me back as a woman and it encourages
    me to be the best I can be--not only incisive but thoughtful of
    others.     
    
    Tamar

    Orthodoxy does not by definition preclude the right to question.
    To question does not by definition mean to abandon. 
    
    Not understanding is not contradictory to believing and being faithful.
    Believing and being faithful does not imply complete understanding.
    
    I would like to relate a story that I believe illustrates this
    philosophy very nicely.
    
    A story is told about Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik for the town of Brisk 
    who had an outstanding pupil who abandoned his beliefs because of 
    many questions that he had.
    
    Many years later this pupil happened to pass through Brisk and decided
    that he would visit his former mentor. Rabbi Chaim was pleased to
    see him. 
    
    The pupil requested to discuss the many questions that he had had
    over the years.
    
    Rabbi Chaim answered him in Yiddish (xlation following):
    
    "Ich hab teruzim far kashes aber Ich hab nicht teruzim far teruzim."

    I have answers to questions, but I don't have answere for excuses.
    
    In Yiddish (adopted from Hebrew) the word TERUZIM can mean ANSWER
    or EXCUSE -- a play on words.
    
    Rabbi Chaim's point was that when one's questions don't affect one's
    faith then these questions can be and should be discussed. The
    existence or lack of a logical answer will have no affect regarding
    one's belief or faith. However, when one's questions are an excuse
    to abandon one's faith then there is no point in discussing them,
    for there is no guarantee that logical and satisfiable answers do
    indeed exist. There are no suitable answers for excuses.
    
    Cb.

    RE 15; Cb.
    You assume (ass/u/me) that people come to things other than Orthodoxy
    *only* because they want the 'easy way out.'
    
    
    
    >"Orthodoxy does not by definition preclude the right to question."
    *Perhaps* not, but it certainly seems to preclude the right to choose.
    
    So much for the thought of conversation about what draws us to our
    respective branches.
    
    Tamar
    

    It seems to me that in Orthordox Judaism you are allowed to question 
    as long as you accept some basic precepts. Once you question things 
    like the Torah being the word of hashem, the oral law, the accepted 
    interperated views/laws of the rabbis, or you allow your conclusions
    to fall outside the accepted framework no matter how knowledgeable
    you are you will be considered as an apicarous (spelling?).

    Malcolm

RE: many previous replies

	I have a copy of the Summer 1986 issue of _Ultimate_Issues_, a 
	magazine written by Dennis Prager (of "Eight (or Nine) Questions
	People Ask About Juadaism").

	It is a special issue entitled 

		"Why I am a Jew: The Case for a Religious Life". 

	This is a transcript of part of a seminar-weekend
	that Prager held recently in Columbus, Ohio.  The forum consisted of
	Prager together with a group of 15 men and women, ages 30 to 45, all of
	whom were largely uncommitted to Judaism.)

	I find this issue unusually stimulating. I think _many_ people
	in this conference would, also. (For those of you who haven't read 
	Prager's stuff, or haven't met him, this would be a treat. He has
	a remarkable way of presenting complex issues.)

	I am willing to make a LIMITED number of xerox'es of this issue
	for people who send me mail directly (PLEASE DON'T REPLY HERE
	IN THE NOTESFILE!) - at CURIE::FEINBERG or EINSTN::FEINBERG.

	       ***Since it's 28 pages of real, live, heavy, paper -
	     please don't request it unless you're going to read it!***

	I have already send out (this morning) several copies to people
	in this conference I assumed would be interested.

/don feinberg

    re .18                          
    
    	Thanks to Don for taking the time and effort to send out copies
    of this issue.  I have read about 2/3 of it so far and it is indeed
    excellent material.  A lot of it is right on the mark, and the rest
    is at least thought-provoking.
    
    	At the risk of sounding totally ignorant, who is Dennis Prager?
    He seems to do a lot of writing and public appearances.  Does he
    do this on his own, or is he affiliated with some group?  He seems
    to have written a lot concerning Kahane--what is his stand?  In
    the issue Don has sent, Prager comes across as being fairly comfortable
    in dealing with the Christian super-salesmen; am I jumping to
    conclusions?  (He implies that he at least knows what they want
    and where they are coming from.)
    
    	I don't mean to indicate any reflection on what Prager has to
    say in this material; it's just distracting to read such heavy stuff
    with no insight into the author.
    
    		David

    I'm not a very knowledgeable person, but here goes: Dennis Prager
    seems to be a radio commentator in California (I don't know what
    station, or if it is a more widely distributed show - perhaps someone
    in California who reads this will help here).  He is associated
    with the Conservative Movement, and his newsletters give a pretty
    good reading of the usual positions of that movement.  He wrote
    a book with someone else whose name escapes me which is very popular
    amongst conservative Jews, entitled something like "Nine Questions
    Jews Ask", and has also put out a bunch of tapes.  My rabbi describes
    him as a "pop theologian", meaning that he has never written an
    in-depth explanation of his "theology"; you know the sort of dry
    tome that would be: he is instead a "popular" writer.  I don't by
    any means agree with everything he says, but he is interesting to
    read!  He apparently also will respond to letters, if you REALLY
    disagree with one of his points (and won't publish your letter in
    his newsletter if say not to).  That's about all I know about him.
    You can probably find out more by locating a copy of his book and
    reading it.  Our schul has one, but I haven't had time to read the
    thing.
    
    /Charlotte

Reply to .-1 and several previous....

>>Dennis Prager
>>    seems to be a radio commentator in California (I don't know what
>>    station, or if it is a more widely distributed show - perhaps someone
>>    in California who reads this will help here).  

	He does have a radio show, but it's not his major activity.
	His major activity is writing and lecturing.

>>He is associated
>>with the Conservative Movement, and his newsletters give a pretty
>>good reading of the usual positions of that movement.  

	He is _not_ associated with the Conservative movement.
	Many of his positions make Conservative Jews decidedly uncomfortable!

I'm quoting below (without permission) a letter and reply from the latest
issue of _Ultimate Issues_.  Prager describes himself well!

(What's also really neat about the letter page is two other letters,
of congratulations, on the issue of _Ultimate Issues_ about "Why I Am
A Jew: The Case for a Religious Life". One is from Rabbi Lamm - the President
of Yeshiva University.  The other is from Dr. Petuchowski, of Hebrew
Union College. _On the same page!_)

Letter:	WHY AREN'T YOU ORTHODOX?

	I received your publication and was thrilled with the intellectual
	stimulation found within its pages.

	In your publicity sheet you are depicted as no longer being an
	Orthodox Jew.  This leaves me perplexed and puzzled.

	It was after reading your book, _The Nine Questions People Ask
	About Judaism_, that I decided to return to my Orthodox roots.
	After spending many years in the Reform Temple, I've concluded
	that for Judaism to survive, a return to traditional Judaism
	is necessary.

	Please explain your convictions in this regard.

					<reader>
					Baltimore, MD


Prager's Response:

	I don't know what "publicity sheet" describes me "as no longer
	Orthodox."  But it is true - though I am not Conservative or
	Reform either.  Like many Jews, I am an inconsistent melange
	of a whole host of denominational attitudes and practices. I
	have found, too, that the greatest differences are not among
	Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews, but between Jews who 
	are serious about Judaism and Jews who aren't.  Many Orthodox
	Jews are Jews out of habit, many Jews are Conservative simply
	because they are no longer Orthodox, and many Jews are Reform 
	because it makes no demands on them.  In a future issue of _UI_
	I will explain my position in detail.  In the meantime, let me
	at least offer you my favorite self-description at this time:
	I am a constantly sinning religious Jew.