Conference taveng::bagels

reply to:
>>>< Note 234.0 by NONODE::CHERSON "Une Victime de Tromperie" >
>>>                          -< To Bat-Mitzvah or not? >-
>>>
>>>    This question has been on my mind for quite a while(especially since
>>>    I have a daughter!).  What is the origin of Bat-Mitzvahs?  Are
>>>    they an invention of twentieth-century North American Jewry or is
>>>    there an actual halacha commanding us to perform them?  Any information
>>>    will help clarify this in my mind, todah.
    
I don't have time for a complete response now, but Bat Mitzvah as a (literal)
concept, i. e., the concept of being obligated to/by the mitzvah, has 
been around at least since post-Gemara times.

You probably know this, but I think a lot of the other readers of this 
file might be confused by this point, so let me give a little more information: 

A Jewish person is Bar Mitzvah (a boy a 13+) or Bat Mitzvah (a girl at 12+)
just by virtue of reaching the age.  One does *not* have to have "been
Bar-Mitzvah'ed", so to speak ---- there's no such verb!  The ceremony of
a boy being called to the Torah  for "his Bar Mitzvah" is just supposed to be an
instance of (first time) public ability to "laine" (i. e., read/chant aloud)
Torah and Haftorah.  The service itself does *NOT* creates nor changes 
anything. He (or she) is Bar (or Bat) Mitzvah with or without any ceremony.
By AGE, you're obligated to and by the mitzvah.  

There's no halacha to "perform" the Bar Mitzvah. Though it's a "first" 
for the boy involved, it's "just another service".  The boy has 
recognized and supported his new status publicly. Since women are excused,
halachically, from mitzvot performed at specific times, they have no
mitzvah to publicly davven or "laine". So they're just as "Bas Mitzvah" without
participating in the service that way.

(Now, what one *does* with their new obligations could be the subject of 
another note!)

This does seem peculiar to the last century, certainly the last 50 to 70
years in the U. S.  It is definitely peculiar to the Reform and Conservative
movements. 

[Dating: Since the Conservative movement itself did not begin until 1913, and 
at that time was still _quite_ conservative, i. e., mechitza, etc., it would 
seem rather unlikely to have had a Conservative "Bat Mitzvah" (as "Bar Mitzvah")
ceremony much before the thirties.  My own experience, in New York in late
40's to the 50's was that it was pretty rare then.  The reform movement
started earlier, but I believe that they did not do "Bat Mitzvah" until this
century - anyone know more specifically?]

Set flame/on

My opinion is that the Conservative and Reform movements have finessed the 
above point, particularly given their lack of emphasis on observance of 
mitzvah, particularly of late. Instead, BarMitzvahs have become largely social 
occasions. Also, in an effort to provide women's "rights", I think those 
movements began to allow Bat-Mitzvah "ceremonies". Perhaps this was also in 
reaction to some of the huge, blow-out Bar-Mitzvah ceremonies/parties/feasts/
gift-giving-orgies that have become so common. (I'd feel left out, too! I 
never had such a Bar-Mitzvah myself.)

Opinion: it is much more important spend many years in educating a child 
as to what the mitzvah *is*, and how and when to observe it. Then the Bar/Bat
Mitzvah ceremony itself becomes MUCH less important.

Unfortunately, I'm shovelling against the tide here...

Set flame/off

The part that I've left out here is the answer to (halachically), "so why
do men "laine" and women not "laine" publicly".  Could be a good note...

In my shul, by the way, among some moderately large ones, we have had a 
number of Bar Mitzvahs on Monday or Thursday mornings, with no big 
ceremony - the boy gets an aliyah, and maybe davvens the service.
We've also had a case or two ofwhat you might call  "multiple" BarMitzvahs - 
where the boy got his aliyah on the closest possible day to his 13th 
birthday, and then publicly davvened/lained at a later data, when it 
was convenient for his relatives to come!

Sorry for the long response.  Gotta run...

/don feinberg

    It all depends on how you look at it...
    
    I come from a religiously Reform background, and went through Bar
    Mitzvah and Confirmation (graduation from religious school, around
    age 15-16).  In my temple, the Bar Mitzvah would lead the service,
    or much of it.  That's what I did; the Torah and Haftorah were only
    part of it.  On the other hand, the Hebrew portions were abbreviated
    -- I never learned to sight-read well enough, so it was by memory.
    (Boo on me, but you know how kids are.  I know how I was.)
    
    Reform and some Conservative are Egalitarian.   (Actually, there's
    now Egalitarian Orthodox, but it's not mainstream.)  That means
    that most ceremonies not directly sex-related (i.e., mikvah!) are
    open to both sexes.  So girls had Bat Mitzvah ceremonies too.
    
    In Reform, we don't quibble about Halacha.  We like to Do The Right
    Thing.  (Which is not always the way the Orthodoxy view our Thing.)
           fred

    My husband (Paul YOUNG::Young)'s family is orthodox.  Paul is the
    oldest.  The younger of his two sisters had a bat mitzvah ceremony
    in their schul (in West Hartford, Ct.), at which she chanted haftorah
    (since this is an orthodox schul, she of course could not have an
    aliyah).  She is now in her mid-twenties, so this was a while ago
    now, but I believe that they are still allowing the ceremony, probably
    as a way of keeping peace in the family!
    
    We belong to an egalitarian reform schul ourselves, so this issue
    doesn't come up in our own congregation.  Some of our women wear
    kipot (I usually don't), and a reasonable number wear the tallis
    (I do).  We take a different view of the obligations of the mitzvot,
    which there is no need to get into here, of course, but as we see
    things the obligations we assume are binding on all adults; the
    absence of a Y chromosome doesn't exempt anyone.
    
    /Charlotte

    Well this is great, it looks like we might have a great discussion(or
    very possibly a brief one!).  I'd like to thank the people who have
    replied so far.
    
    Personally my sympathies tend to run towards the thoughts of Don
    Feinberg, in that it's much more important for the child to be
    cognizant of the Mitzvot themselves, rather than develop sweaty
    armpits on one Sat. a.m., and then have your cheeks pinched by various
    relatives(whom you'd never see until the next affair) at some
    gregarious party later on in the day.  Yes, this is exactly what
    I remember from my Bar-Mitzvah.  My family were members of a
    "traditional" Conservative shul, but I can't recall any of my teachers
    in hebrew school, or the melamed who was teaching me my Haftorah,
    telling me about your obligations beginning with AGE, rather I had
    the popular impression that it all began on Dec. 2, 1961(now I'm
    giving my age away!).
    
    I don't identify with any of the three movements, although I've
    always had a strange impression of the Reform movement.  But lets
    not get into that one again, we'll never know who owns "the keys
    to the kingdom" until we get there.  I just respond according to
    my conditioning and upbringing.
    
    Let's hear from others on their thoughts.
    
    David

re:  .-1 

>>>    We take a different view of the obligations of the mitzvot,
>>>    which there is no need to get into here, of course, but as we see
>>>    things the obligations we assume are binding on all adults; the
>>>    absence of a Y chromosome doesn't exempt anyone.
>>>    
>>>    /Charlotte

This is, to me, a very important and key point.  I think that a
discussion around it would underline the roots of the whole 
Reform/Conservative/Orthodox mayhem.

That "mayhem" is something that pains me a great deal.  And the "heat"
in the public discussions sure covers up the "light".

Maybe there really IS a need to get into this. Do people
want to (reasonably peacibly) discuss this here?  Any thoughts?

/don feinberg

    Look to #236, our illustrious moderator has opened up this can of
    worms again.  To the best of my recollection, there have been two
    previous notes dealing with this subject.
    
    Now if we would want to discuss the recent incident that happened
    on Simchat Torah in Jerusalem, i.e., the interference of the reform
    hakofot, then it would serve some purpose.  But please I beg of
    you, try to restrict this note to the discussion of Bar/Bat Mitzvah,
    and don't go off into a tangent.
    
    David

re: 234.1

> This does seem peculiar to the last century, certainly the last 50 to 70
> years in the U. S.  It is definitely peculiar to the Reform and Conservative
> movements. 

	I believe the first public "Bat-Mitzvah" ceremony took place in
1921 and it involved the daughter of R. Mordecai Kaplan, who later won
renown (or notoriety, depending on one's orientation) as founder of the
Reconstructionist movement when he taught at the Jewish Theological Seminary.
Kaplan believed very strongly in the importance of education for both men
and women.  He also thought that equal recognition was in order, hence there
should be a public celebration of a girl's reaching the age of bat mitzvah
just as there is a public celebration for a boy.  By public celebration,
he meant in the synagogue, because that is where Jewish *public* life
is/should be centered.

> My opinion is that...[ see .1 for details ]
> 
> Opinion: it is much more important spend many years in educating a child 
> as to what the mitzvah *is*, and how and when to observe it. Then the Bar/Bat
> Mitzvah ceremony itself becomes MUCH less important.

	I agree with the latter part of your flame and I think Kaplan would
have agreed with you as well, although we might not agree on the specifics
of "what the mitzvah *is*" (that would be good for at least three notes...).
To the extent that the public celebration gives the adolescent an opportunity
to demonstrate Jewish learning and Jewish skills, there is a lot to say
for having such a ceremony for both sexes, but to the extent that it
demonstrates the affluence of the parents, there is not much to recommend
it for either.

					Aaron