Conference taveng::bagels

    I believe that the way to address this is through Personnel.  The
    use of an offensive term in any company activity should not be
    tolerated period.  If someone had used a sexual term that I found
    offensive that is how I would handle it.  This should be no different.
    It has been my experience that these problems were handled reasonably
    with a fair degree of sensitivity on the part of the Personnel
    Organization.  Let me know how you make out.
    
    WS

    To my eyes the original note is not insulting, nor is it
    excessively offensive.  Nisreen Sunnaa is in ELF, so he or
    she is a Digital employee, and the note is in no way
    anonymous.
    
    The use of "PLO" could be a reference to the Palestine
    Liberation Organization.  It could be a reference to the
    obscure digital installation in Portland Maine (yes,
    there is one, and its code is PLO).  It could be a micro-
    VAX and a joke or pun or a name mandated by the local
    management.  In any case, it is neither dangerous nor
    anywhere near offensive enough to warrent your response.
    
    			-John Bishop

    I don't agree,  PLO:: is not in the ENET database
    and is not recognized by ANCHOR.  IN addition, you can
    not tell me that someone promoting the PLO (mid eastern
    facility) with the NODE NAME PLO:: is a coincidence.

    Unfortunately Fred, I'm going to have agree with the last reply.
    As far as I know you can use any name for a node, as long as it
    is no more than six characters long, and doesn't imply sexual 
    offensiveness(did I just type that?!).  We are in the process of
    trying to get on the EASYnet now, so this is what I understand from
    DIS standards.  So if you want to, you could name your node "Zion"
    to counter "PLO".
    
    One more thing, I read the note by Nisreen Sunnaa, he/she is certainly
    entitled to his/her opinion.  Isn't that what SOAPBOX is all about?
    I didn't find the note offensive, and I do hold an Israeli passport
    Fred.  Of course it contained the usual fallacy of the Palestinian
    problem being at the core of all the problems of the Middle East.
    Don't you know that once the Palestinians receive their state, even
    my bunions will go away?
    
    Seriously, the objections I have to the PLO(outside of more than
    a few innocent lives taken by them)is that the leadership hasn't
    changed one iota since Haq Amin Husseini.  The true moderate, Dr.
    Sartawi, was assasinated for his willingness to compromise.
    
    David
    

    David,
    
    Before you agree with Mike's response, I think you ought to consider
    the fact that he forgot his usual 8-}
    
    				Fred

    Who ?  Me ?


    RE:.3  Dave countering PLO with ZION is like countering
	   Locust Invasion with a can of raid.

	    

    
    
    	Or how about this:
    
    	NAZI::ZIPPERHEAD.
    
    
    	OH, the node ?  You mean someone fins it offensive ?
    	It means Not Agianst Zionistic Interpretations.
    
    	Give me a break.
    
    
    

    Fred, I wasn't agreeing with Mike(how could I do a thing like that!:-).
    Rather John Bishop's reply.  
    
    You know when I came back to this country, opinions that were pro-PLO
    that were expressed covertly or openly used to get me steamed, not
    anymore.  Now I tend to glance away from opinions from such people as
    Anthony Lewis of the times, and his buddy Christopher Lyons of Ch.2.
    I know that these people speak from ignorance/selfishness/a slight
    tinge of anti-Jewishness(don't forget our Arab cousins are Semitic).
    Add the fact that they aren't on the scene, and  familiar with
    the reality.
    
    However I give more creedence to people like Nisreen, at least he
    is Arab, and maybe more familiar with the area(albeit, that he sees
    the situation from his perspective).  Even if his node is named
    for THE plo, it still can't bother me.
    
    Mike, don't ever compare Israel with a can of raid.  A can of raid
    will expire, but Israel will never.
    
    David 
                                                    

     I think the nodename is inappropriate; it could easily be interpreted
     as making a political statement that is offensive to some people, and
     that would seem questionable under the soon-to-be-implemented
     corporate policy.  
     
     However, I wonder why this is being discussed in this forum.  My
     understanding of NOTES etiquette is that if you find a note to be
     questionable or offensive, you either mail the author or the
     conference moderator.  Will posting the note tend to achieve a
     solution or to create friction?
      
     
     --Mr Topaz

    	Don Topaz has some good points.  
    
    	IT is my understanding that the moderator's were notified.
    	After a conversation with the afore mentioned I think that
    	the moderators have nothing to do with this.  This is a 
    	Corporate Telecom issue.
    
    	It is being discussed here because Fred thought others
    	might be interested.  I see no harm, but then again, it
    	might be better if the questionable situation were
    	handled in SOAPBOX... THEN AGAIN, that note in soapbox never
    	should have been there in the first place, it should be here.
    
    

.11>   THEN AGAIN, that note in soapbox never
.11>   should have been there in the first place, it should be here.

    	I started the note in SOAPBOX because the subject had come up
    in another note there, and I felt it deserved to be explored further.
    I think the 'box is more appropriate, since it has a wider audience.
    A discussion here would be mostly a series of replies of people
    who are in violent agreement.
    
    	The replies in SOAPBOX have actually not been as extreme as
    I might have anticipated.  I have even succeeded in winning a few
    arguments, or at least getting in the last word that has not been
    refuted (which is as close as one can come to "winning" in the 'box).
    
    	The "PLO" nodename was the first really inflammatory gesture
    in what has been a long-winded series of replies.  My inclination
    was (and still is) to ignore it, since it is such an obvious and
    juvenile attempt to grab attention.  The less said, the better,
    so that the poverty of that person's case is made clear.
    
    	However, I sympathize with the people who have objected to the
    nodename.  I don't agree with the nitpickers who say that maybe
    it's just a coincidence; that's nonsense.  But SOAPBOX is SOAPBOX,
    and expression there should be as unrestricted as possible.
    
    		David

    The node name doesn't get me as annoyed as some mail personal names
    I've seen in the headers of messages I've received - in particular
    the ones which imply that I'm going to be "saved." (my quotes).
    Although I don't believe it has worked out, there should be separation
    between government and religion.  In much the same way, I'd prefer
    to see my fellow employees keep their religious views apart from
    my work environment.  If I look in JOKES, I expect to find sexist
    and vulgar remarks; if I look in SOAPBOX, I'm not surprised to see
    real hot flames that burn without producing much benefit; if I peruse
    BAGELS, I'm prepared for religious comments - BUT, I have no control
    over mail I receive and therefore offensive remarks in mail headings
    are not things I ask to see but are forced upon me.

    Nirseen is a well-known noter, and not generally a flamer.
    
    I believe that nodenames that show up in Notes don't come from the
    originating node but from the node which hosts the confernce.  Thus
    PLO:: must be defined on 2B:: (Mike Zaharee's �VAX) and can't be
    Nisreen's own joke; she may have asked him to set it, though, and
    it really wouldn't be way "out of line" by soapbox standards.  Anyone
    who attempts to hold Soapbox to Easynet norms clearly hasn't spent
    much time there -- Nisreen is quite moderate in her words!
    
    BTW her home town used to be six miles or so north of the Israeli
    border.  I think it ceased to exist in 1982 or thereabouts.  She
    is not, however, in any way a stereotypical "Arab" and if she managed
    to offend somebody, well, that's the 'box for you.
    
    Had she entered it in BAGELS, we'd have a case.

    
    
    
    	Disclaimer:
    
    	After speaking with Mike, he was surprised to
    	find that the node name WAS in the Box since it
    	is NOT defined on his base.  It is not on mine
    	either and we updated to days ago to 4.5
    
    	No, I am sorry, there is more here than meets the keyboard.
    
    

    Yesterday I had a conversation with someone outside the company I
    have a great deal of respect for. His advise to me was not to
    pursue this matter. As long as I spoke out against something that
    I thought was wrong no one can accuse me of complacency. Getting
    one person to change a node name proves nothing. He went on to
    say that for every "rasha" you knock down another pops up. Some
    people are not happy unless they are insulting someone else or
    generally making a nuisance of themselves. That's why SOAPBOX was
    created. 

                           Fred
             

It looks like the strong reaction to this trial balloon has caused Nisreen to
decide to name her node CEDARS instead of PLO.  The notes in Soapbox, will,
however, remain there.

Now, who's going to get the facility code of Portland, Maine, changed?

/john

>.11>   THEN AGAIN, that note in soapbox never
>.11>   should have been there in the first place, it should be here.
>
>    	I started the note in SOAPBOX because the subject had come up
>    in another note there, and I felt it deserved to be explored further.
>    I think the 'box is more appropriate, since it has a wider audience.
>    A discussion here would be mostly a series of replies of people
>    who are in violent agreement.
 
Correct.  There is in fact a note on this topic in this conference (#69), but
the opposing view was quite well silenced by making the participant unwelcome:

>I wholeheartedly agree with TAV02::ROSENMAN "Am Yisroel Chai" in .11:
>
>"Therefore in a different vain I offer this advice to him. Fold
>your tent buddy, get on your camel and buzz off."

At least Nisreen had a *little* bit of support for her choice of node name,
even in here.

/john

    
    
    
    
    	Ha !  Does this guy do everything that
    	people tell him ?
    
    

Re .17 & .18

>It looks like the strong reaction to this trial balloon has caused Nisreen to
>decide to name her node CEDARS instead of PLO.  
    
    John, "trial balloon"? Do you plan more?
    
    As far as changing the node name to CEDARS is concerned, I
    think that it is a positive move. We may have our differences but
    I don't believe in antagonism for the sake of antagonism.
    
    			Fred
    
    PS - Leave the notes in SOAPBOX. It may be sad but true, but in a
    week nobody will care. I consider the issue closed. 

>    John, "trial balloon"? Do you plan more?
    
Don't really have anything more planned.  Got any ideas?  You could (as long
as your personal name were set so that you were fully identified) appear in
Soapbox as "GFILTE::FISH" and we could see how many people find that offensive.

:-)/john

    I realize that I am just an casual noter, and don't spend much time
    in this conference, but....
    
    First, I must make the assumption that most BAGELS noters are U.S.
    citizens either by birth or choice. Even most of us who are citizens
    "by birth" are the result of someones choice of America.
    As citizens, we are all protected by the Constituion which guarantees
    our FREEDOM OF SPEECH, IDEAS, etc. Who are we to deny this right
    to Nisreen Sunnaa??
    
    Several people claim Nisreens use of PLO:: as antagonistic and
    offensive... it was used in the public forum.Has anyone considered
    that the presence of ::BAGELS may be offensive to non-Jews?
    
    Remember - we all have rights  as long as we don't deny the rights
    of others.
    

    Re: .22 
    
    When was the last reported incident of a non-Jew being hurt with
    a flying Bagel?
    
    Cb.

    
    I happen to think that an node named PLO would ause more problems
    on the NET.  Basically it is againt U.S. policy to deal with the
    PLO so how would that affect file transfers, task to task comm.,
    remote terminal access.  Think of it, we'd have to go through node
    EGYPT:: or maybe node SWEDEN::.
    
    Happy noting,
    
    Bruce C.