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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:SMURF::FENSTER
Created:Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1524
Total number of notes:18709

219.0. "Give it to me straight, please!" by IOSG::YUILLE (Andrew Yuille) Fri Oct 24 1986 13:11

    I would be grateful for help from those of you with the relevant
    experience. It has been pointed out to me that although
    Christianity claims to fulfil the Torah, there are many blatant
    deviations. The example I was given was of the Sabbath; we have
    no right to change the observance from the command of the 7th 
    day to the 1st day of the week.

    I feel that this is a very serious personal challenge which has
    to be faced. 'G_d is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of
    man that He should change his mind' (Numbers 23 v 19).  If 
    my Christianity is a continuation and fulfilment of the Torah, 
    they cannot conflict.  I've got to come to terms with this 
    myself, and would like you to point out specific areas of 
    offense.  I think I'd better lay down some ground rules to 
    start from.

     . This is something which matters to me more than anything in
       the world. I need to get it right. That's why I'm laying
       myself wide open where I guess its going to hurt. So try not
       to flame too much; I want light, not heat, but I'm willing
       to risk being singed in the process!

     . There's lots of different things called 'Christianity', both
       from inside and outside, some of which I find offensive too.
       'Being a Christian' is a personal decision, not a cultural or
       social inheritance. I equate anti-semitism with
       anti-christianity - the latter is a natural progression 
       from the former.  I feel it necessary to mention this 
       because I'm told that there are those who think Hitler 
       was 'a Christian', and identify his actions with
       Christianity.  The very idea is utterly repugnant.

     . I'm only interested in rationalising my own understanding of
       Christianity as it conforms to its roots.  That's why 
       I'm entering the note request here, rather than inviting 
       you to contribute to another conference.  The aim is not 
       to corrupt anyone's Jewish integrity - its that I want 
       to learn from.  Specifically, I'm not posing as an inquirer 
       just to try and force my opinions on anyone, though it 
       would be good, I suppose, to feel that this could generate 
       better understanding both ways.

     . I would not specially anticipate trying to answer the
       objections raised, other than in my own mind (except 
       where I felt they were so way out as to need re-focussing 
       - like the earlier example; or to ask for clarification). 
       If anyone wanted to know my conclusions, that should be 
       handled outside BAGELS.

     . I understand that this is likely to be emotive on both sides.
       That's one reason why I plan not to answer very much. Also
       why this discussion is likely to end up being write locked,
       or even deleted.  In spite of this, the issues involved 
       are important enough to me to justify the attempt.
 
     . Some of you might feel that the whole area is too big to
       start on. For instance, 'not keeping Kosher food observance',
       involving multiple items of dietary detail. OK - put in
       whatever you feel is relevant, and you've time for. I guess
       you will collectively represent a fair range of orthodox to
       liberal views, which I'll need to accomodate too...

                              Andrew
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name		DateLines
219.1it's none of our concern, really, sinceDEREP::GOLDSTEINFunction' isn't spelled '...ality'Fri Oct 24 1986 15:3221
    It is against Judaism to preach at non-Jews.  We don't want converts.
    We don't consider it necessary for non-Jews, be they Christian,
    Islamic, Ba'ha'i or anything else (the aforementioned claim descent
    from Jewish tradition, in some form or another), to justify their
    own beliefs against our own.
    
    Within the scope of Jewish tradition, we have many interpretations,
    but some things (like the obvious non-Messianic nature of the person
    who is referred to as Jesus) are not disputable within Judaism.
    Now I actually have studied New Testament theology, academically,
    and the general notion seems to be that Christians believe that
    Jesus in some way fulfilled the "old covenant" and that Christianity
    becomes a successor, with no need to uphold the Biblical laws (which
    Jews, of course, don't consider generally incumbent upon the rest
    of the world anyway).
    
    Some sects, inlcuding "British Israelitism" and its American spinoffs,
    the Armstrong (Herbert W and Garner Ted) cults, disagree and believe
    that Christians should follow the laws of Moses.  But that's among
    Christians to slug out among themselves.
      fred
219.2Religion? What is it?TAV02::NITSANNitsan Duvdevani, Digital IsraelSun Oct 26 1986 07:329
Sorry for the ignorance, but why is it so important to anyone to choose
a set of rules and call it a "religion"? Either you believe in something
or you don't. There are millions of people who believe it's wrong to eat
pork and are happy with it, and there are millions who believe Jesus was
some sort of messiah and are happy with it. Is there a question of who is
more correct? Because, if there is, then there are [at least] millions of
wrong people in the world...

ND
219.3Born that wayGRAMPS::LISSFred - ESD&P Shrewsbury MAMon Oct 27 1986 08:4212
    Re .2
    
>    Sorry for the ignorance, but why is it so important to anyone to choose
>a set of rules and call it a "religion"? Either you believe in something
>or you don't
    
    Nitsan, I didn't choose a set of rules to call my religion.
    As I tell my friends, "I was born that way, He chose me."
    
    			Shalom
    				Fred
219.4Born to ask questionsTAV02::NITSANNitsan Duvdevani, Digital IsraelSun Nov 02 1986 03:1812
Re .3  (hi Fred)
    
>           I didn't choose a set of rules to call my religion.
>   As I tell my friends, "I was born that way, He chose me."

By "I was born that way" I can understand two main things:
  1. I was brought up that way, and therefore this is what I know to be true.
  2. Everybody knows this is my religion, so this is my destiny.

But what with that and the CONTENTS of a religion?

Nitsan
219.5Re-statedIOSG::YUILLEAndrew YuilleMon Nov 24 1986 10:0669
 I have been off for a while, and then catching up in other areas before I got
 back to my query here, but was hoping for rather more help than materialised!
 I was rather disappointed, but it looks as though I gave the wrong impression
 to start with.

    Re .1 Fred G. - I'm not asking you to 'preach', and I'm not
    offering either tro convert or conform. I was just asking for
    assistance in a personal concern. I saw this as a focus of
    experience, and thought some might be interested enough to
    contribute.

    Re .2 Nitsan - I am not interested in 'religion' in this sense.
    I'm interested in knowing G_d. The only One. Not specifically
    the G_d of the Jews, or the G_d of the Christians, but the G_d
    Who created, and is involved with what He created. That's one
    reason why this is a personal query. The reason I come here is
    because I read things which refer me back to you:

Genesis 12:3  (to Abraham)

    "... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you ..."

Genesis 26:4  (to Isaac)

    "... through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed ..."

Genesis 28:14 (to Jacob)

    "... all people on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring ... "

Genesis 9:27 

    "May G_d extend the territory of Japheth, may Japheth live in the
    tents of Shem."

Exodus 19:6 (to Israel)

    "... You will be for me a kingdom of priests ..."

Isaiah 42:6

    "I the L_RD have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of
    your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant
    for the people and a light for the Gentiles ..."

Isaiah 49:6,22

    "... it is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore
    the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
    I will also make you a light for the Gentiles ..."

Zechariah 8:23

    "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take
    firm hold of one Jew by the edge of his robe and say, 'Let us go
    with you, because we have heard that G_d is with you'."


    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
 The responses lead me to the conclusion that either the original query
 offends (though I checked this out with both moderators before submitting
 it), or that the Divine relationship aspect of Jewish culture is too
 sensitive ground to touch (Possibly this has bearing on topic 217, if that's
 not overstepping the mark). Either way it would be inappropriate for me to
 pursue this here, unless this is refuted by subsequent replies, so I won't
 intrude further.  Please feel free to contact me by mail if you would prefer.

                                                                  Andrew
219.6MINAR::BISHOPMon Nov 24 1986 17:3526
    .1 has it right: most Christian theologies say that the "old"
    covenant is now superceeded by the "new" one.  Thus circumcision
    and the laws of kashrut are not applicable to Christians.
    
    Some (numerically small) groups of Christians try to follow some
    or all of the "old" law.
    
    Following the law as specified in the Old Testament is not an easy
    matter: some parts of it are impossible to fulfill (there is no
    Temple in Jerusalem to sacrifice doves at, for example), some parts
    are hard to define.  There exists a body of explaination and expansion
    into details (I believe it is called Halacha--could I have a
    correction, please?), worked out over a long time.
    
    Some Jews try to follow the whole of the law.  Some do not.  There
    are disagreements over what the law is.  It is an interesting and
    difficult study, and many very smart people have devoted a lot of
    time to working on it.
    
    If .0 is concerned over whether Judaic law binds him, he should
    ask an authority he trusts from within his religion.  If he does
    not know such a person, I'd recommend he start reading Biblical
    criticism and history, to expose himself to the opinions of many
    before he makes a decision.
    
    					-John Bishop