Conference taveng::bagels

    Dear Satan,

	We look like a group of people with a major ego trip.

			    One of the Chosen ones.

    Let's stick with "ethical monotheism", instead.  To my way of thinking,
    that is the chief characteristic of the Jewish people, and the one
    we should be proudest of.  The ethnic part is fun, too, of course,
    but there are several ethnicities these days, from the Ethiopian
    Jews rescued by "project Moses" to those from Eastern Europe.
    
    I quit reading notes files when the heat-to-light ratio gets too
    high.  Life is too short...

    I'm going to have to agree with .2.  Its quite true that Jewish
    people think their way is the best/only/correct way...but of course
    every religion or branch of a religion (ie. Protestant, Episcopalian
    etc.) feels that way.  I think what would have bothered me the most
    (and maybe bothered you) about the replys you received in the Religion
    notesfile is that people actually had the nerve to insist that their
    religion/religious beliefs were the only answer.  
    
    I just try and follow this one rule one discussing religion with
    people who believe differently than I do..."Everyone is entitled
    to believe what is right for themselves *BUT* that's as far as it goes.
    I don't want their beliefs inflicted on me and I won't inflict mine
    on them."

    Where do you get the idea that "Jewish people think that their
    way is the best/only/correct way" ?  Judiaism is only the "best/only/
    correct" way for JEWS.  We, as Jews, have a mission (our choseness)
    to bring the idea of Monotheism to the world, and to be examples
    of righteousness (NOT self-righteousness), chesed, and sanctity
    of all of G-d's creations(doing mizvot).
    
    We've been pretty successful, don't you think.  Our "sister" religions,
    Christainity and Islam, have helped to promulgate monotheism and
    the concept of a Messianic era.  And as it says at the close of
    tractate Sanhedran "All the righteous have a place in the World
    to Come."
    
    If individual Jews adopt "foreign" ideas of superiority of their
    worship over others'... blame the person, not the religion.
    
    ---Av 

    However, as an outsider (one non-observant grandparent was Jewish,
    and my ethnicity is more WASP than anything else), I have to agree
    with .1 that to an outsider, Jews look like a bunch of people who
    are quite ethnocentric--and highly defensive about imagined slurs.
    
    This is (I only wish it went without saying) a generalization, not
    true of everyone, your mileage may vary, you get the idea.  But
    I bet someone still jumps on me, and I bet some of you get hot under
    the collar: it's like telling a woman her child is ugly--you get
    a strong, non-rational reaction.
    
    				-John Bishop

    Ditto .4's first paragraph re:.3.  Any Jew who believes that Judaism
    is the one true religion for all mankind is, rather by definition,
    apostate.  (G�del's theorem applies here, perhaps?  Off the topic...)
    
    Re:.0 and the ::RELIGION conference.  I skim it myself.  I do not
    find it to be "Christian" in nature; in fact, it is far more diverse
    than the population at large, though Christians do outnumber the
    rest.  I think it's gone downhill since a few dogmatic preacher-types
    have started the stuff you alluded to, but during the early months,
    especially, it was a good place to hear from Pagans, Ba'ha'i, and
    other minorities.
          fred

    Re:.7  "who has time nowadays to keep a kosher home...
    with two people working?"
    
    I know that this may be off this topic...but, people MAKE TIME for
    what they find important.  
    
    Dishes are NOT dishes!!  Kashraus is not a game of musical cutlery
    and houseware.  Keeping a Kosher home IS important to one of the
    friends in the example ---or else it would not have been an issue.
    
    Why are we trying to find ways of proving that Jews are as ______
    _______(fill in the blank--but make certain it's negative) as the
    rest of the world?
    
    ___Av  

Re: .0  It seems even the moderators agreed with you...
    
                    
          <<< REGENT::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RELIGION.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< Religion Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 64.0              Conference Temporarily Write-locked            No replies
ILM::REGISTER "Mike Register, AI Applications"       69 lines  23-OCT-1986 15:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The purpose of this conference was to serve as a medium for exchanging ideas 
and sharing views in a loving manner. 

This purpose has been defeated by some of the participants who see the world
based on an exclusive set of beliefs that they possess! Use of slanderous
language, sharp criticisms, and disrespect for others' views has become the
golden rule of this conference! Frequent off-tracking from the subject has
turned into a fundamental practice, which in some cases has undermined the
original purpose of the note, (i.e. A Million Minutes of Prayers for Peace!).

This notesfile will be write protected for a period of time, in which the
moderators will go through the materials posted in this conference and will
selectively delete the offensive or the irrelevant material and will mail
them back to the noter!

A fuller measure of control will be applied by the moderators of this 
conference after the write protection is removed!

Regards,
The moderators


================================================================================
Note 1.0                          Introduction                        No replies
SERF::BURGESS                                        49 lines   4-APR-1986 16:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                           RELIGION CONFERENCE

INTRODUCTION:

  The Religion Conference has been established to offer an environment
for sharing one's religious beliefs and moral ideologies. The goal of
this forum is to generate a medium where  people of divers religious
backgrounds can participate and exchange their beliefs and views in a
spirit of sharing.   The purpose of this conference is by no means to
convert any individual into a specific moral philosophy; nor is it,
to offend or ridicule the unfamiliar ideologies. 
  Our cherished hope is that, through loving, courteous and selfless
contribution and participation in this forum, we can all find a joyful
beauty in our collective differences, instead of disagreement and
hatred. 

POLICIES:

1. People from different countries may read this conference. Therefore
   please be careful with terms / acronyms used, since they may have
   completely different meaning in another part of the world. 

2. The underlying purpose of religion conference is to bring people
   together and not to separate them.  Please do not use offensive
   language to make your point.  Many people of great many backgrounds
   read this conference; an improper comment / language or manner of
   presentation might deprive us from hearing the opinions of an
   individual who is offended by a comment. 

3. All criticism must be presented with a positive language and in a 
   constructive manner.

4. Please quote your sources.

5. Please be descriptive. Some terminologies might be unfamiliar to others,
   it will be helpful to present the meaning of the unfamiliar terms in
   brackets next to it.

6. Please do not repeat your points excessively.
 
                          **********************

    Re .7 
    
    >                                         She will not marry him 
    >unless he drops that request... so now its the parents faults... 

    This young man has the courage to stand up for what he thinks
    is right in spite of strong pressure from his friend.
    
    Dishes are not dishes as you say. I don't have any references
    in front of me but here goes. The laws of Kashraus are given
    in the Torah. Immediately after giving the laws G-d says "I
    am holy, make your self holy" He reminds us that we are created
    in his image and we must follow His commandments (mitzvos).
    
    For those who say that there in no practical reason to keep kosher
    I will agree with them 100%! (surprise). There are three classes
    of mitzvos. Kashraus belongs to the class of laws called chukim.
    These are laws that have been revealed to us but the reason for
    the law has never been revealed. Following such a law is an act of
    faith. Those who don't understand the idea behind chukim would
    think that all of what are referred to as the Levitical laws
    are "stupid".
    
    Before my own marriage there was a strong understanding that my
    future wife would keep the shabbos (and other holy days), keep
    the laws of Kashraus, and keep the laws of family purity. 
    
				Fred
        

    
    Whether you think it is 'stupid' or not, please restrain
    from using a beligerent tone.  

    For example,  

	    "Most Christians would not understand this."

				Mordecai

    Re .11
    
    I don't think I'm using a belligerent tone. 
    
    Let me clarify my previous statement. I was not singling out
    Christians. I was saying ANYONE who doesn't understand chuckim is
    libel to say that the Levitical laws, as well as many other Torah
    laws, are irrelevant and have no place in a modern world. 
    
    It is the reverse. Those who reject the Torah as being outdated or
    superseded are the ones who are stumbling in the dark. 
    
    			Fred
    

	
	.11 was referring to .7

        
		Michael