Conference taveng::bagels

    I don't put much credence in numerological explanations in general.
    What was this one supposed to mean, if true?  And how much fudging
    was necessary to get it to come out that way?

    I think that the point was a "proof" of the non-human authorship
    of the Torah.  If there are patterns in the letters that it takes
    computer-level intellegence to discern, then how could a "great
    editor sometime in the past" (Graf-Welhausen theory) have melded
    together the various hypothisized authors'(J,E,P,etc.) works into
    a coherent, patterned document?
    
    My understanding is that the same patterns are found throughout
    the "Five Books".
    
    This work is being done in Israel.  Do any of our ISO friends know
    anything about it?
    
    --Av

Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!decvax!wanginst!vaxine!agr
Subject: High Tech Texts
Posted: 11 Jul 86 15:58:21 GMT
Organization: Automatix, Inc., Billerica, MA
Posted: Fri Jul 11 11:58:21 1986
 
-------------------------------------------------
The following is from "The Jewish Advocate" as quoted in "Genesis 2" 
June/July 1986:
 
"High Tech Tackles High Texts"
 
	"Scientists in Israel who are using computers to analyze the Bible say 
they are uncovering evidence that the Torah was written by one hand and 
not by a proliferation of authors. 
	Bible scholar Moshe Katz and computer expert Menachem Wiener of the 
Technion in Haifa have conducted research based on the assumption that 
significant words are concealed in the Hebrew text and spelled out by 
letters separated at fixed intervals, a system which is alluded to in 
Rabbinic literature.
	Dr. Katz...said that the evidence is sufficient to dismiss the theory of 
Biblical criticism that the Torah is a collection of documents written and 
edited by different groups over centuries.
	Giving examples of significant words revealed throughout the text, Dr. 
Katz pointed to the repetition of the word 'Torah', which is spelled out by 
every fiftieth character in the entire book of Genesis, and the word 
'El-him,' which appears in the same book through skipping to every twenty 
sixth letter.  The numerical value of the letters that make up 'El-him' is
26.
	Unexplored Biblical texts are already on the computer waiting to be 
tackled.  The scientists also plan to make this method of studying the 
Bible available on Micro computer to high school students."
 
 
It should be easy to verify this claim if one has the text on line.  "El-him," 
by the way,  is the third word in Genesis and is generally translated "G-d" 
("In the beginning, G-d created...").  Secular Biblical scholars make much
of the use of "El-him" in some parts of Genesis and "-----" in other parts.
It would be most interesting if the "El-him" pattern continues throughout
the "-----" sections.
	The choice of 50 and 26 gives an overall pattern with a cycle length 
of 650, providing an embedded redundancy check that would make any 
additions or deletions since the the original text was written hard to hide.
 
 
 
Arnold Reinhold, Automatix Inc., Billerica, Mass.
    

    You can come up with all manner of "data" by manipulating text with
    a computer (I think some Christain group did the same thing with
    the King James version of the Christain bible, which come people
    believe to be a "divinely-inspired translation", but I forget what
    they came up with), since you can keep trying until you get something
    you can call a significant result.  What I was wondering is, did
    they think up any good reason for the numbers 50 and 26?  I suppose
    50  = the sabbatical year + 1...
    
    I'm pretty sceptical about numerological explanations, as you might
    have guessed!
    
    Does anyone else have ideas on this subject??

    I'm as skeptical as anyone over things of this sort. This is in
    the same league as the so-called image of Jesus Christ on an oil
    storage tank in the mid-west. 
    
    -bs

    Now wait a second.
    
    Without proferring mystical explanations, it's perfectly possible
    for someone with the Hebrew text (which I have a copy of) who knows
    how to read it (which I don't, alas) to simply take a look and see
    if the claim is true.  Maybe we can simply write this off -- if
    you're a secularist -- as one of those secrets of the ancients.
    That's a value judgement.
    
    As the original message from usenet pointed out, the numbers in
    question have some significance, at least locally.  So is anybody
    prepared to simply check out the facts?  I'm curious...
        fred

    
    Well, I'm always readu to profer a mystical explanation but this
    looks a little frightning.  Actually I can't wait to get to a 
    Tanach and see if it does work out.
    
    Oh yes, 50 isn't the Sabbatical year +1. It's for the Jubilee year
    which has all sorts of significance in regard to daily life (debts
    responsibilities, slaves etc) and run's through Jewish history 
    in more mystical veins as well (I'll see if I can dig anything up).
    
    As for 26, that happens to be the numerical equivalent of 
    the Tetragrammaton (YHVK) (The final K should be an H but I'm very
    nervous about Divine Names).  Numerical equivalents aren't newfangled
    concepts, there have been major Kabbalistic schools dedicated towards
    this type of learning.
    
    Bruce
    

Why not check it out?  If somebody has an online copy of the Torah text,
it should be pretty easy to print the subtext containing every 26-th
character.  If not, maybe somebody could type in a portion.  It can be
done without special character sets.  I use the English letters
ABGDEWZHTYKLMNSUPCQRJX to represent corresponding letters in the Hebrew
alphabet.

Anybody game?  Maybe a number of us could each type in a small bit if
there isn't an online copy.  It would be interesting to compare our
results!

David Ellis -- Secure Systems Group -- LTN2-2/C08 -- DTN 226-6784 

    Is the jubilee year the 50th year or the year after the 49'th year?
    
    				Paul
    

    You're right, I did mean jubilee year, not sabbatical year.
    I think the jubilee year is the year after the 49th year.  I dimly
    recall some famous story (I bet someone remembers more than I do)
    about how things in Jerusalem were in bad shape (running out of
    food, etc.) because it was the jubilee year, so there had been no
    harvests for two years, and that preceeded by a famine.  I don't
    recall in what context this was or what ended up happening (probably
    a crusade or a plague or some similar unpleasantness).

But something similar crops up in Carl Sagan's novel "Contact".

Martin.

    	How about Shake and Spear appearing in the 23rd pslm when you
    count a certain number of words forward and backward.

    	How about Elvis Lives - Rearange the letters in Elvis and you
    get Lives.

    	How about President Lincoln's personal secretary was Mr. Kennedy
    and President Kennedy's personal secretary was Mrs. Lincoln.

Amazing.  A dozen replies and nobody's got their handy-dandy
VAX edition of the Torah on line yet.  Anybody even go through the
first couple pages by hand? My Hebrew isn't good enough.

re:.12
   This is totally irrelevant.  Getting a word repeated or
finding a single anagram is nothing.  If the pattern repeats itself
literally dozens of times, the probability of it being random is
next to zip, somewhere in the DES range of likelihood.  For the
50-cycle to occur 100 times with an alphabet, you have the 
probability of an  letter's occuring raised to the 100th power.
Or something more complex -- I didn't take probability.

    G-d's a Hacker !

Out of curiosity, I entered the first 34 verses of Bereshit online and
extracted every 26th character using an editor (Emacs) macro.  

The transliterated Hebrew text is in my next reply to this note.  
I used the English letters ABGDEWZHTYKLMNSUPCQRJX to represent the
Hebrew alphabet in order.  Verse numbers are in parentheses, and I
used punctuation marks to indicate phrasing (so as not to lose my
place).  There may be errors, so please double-check my results.

The next reply after that contains 26 lines, each of which consists
of characters spaced 26 apart in the text.  (You can read the text down
the columns if you want to -- I did so to verify correctness of the
extraction program).  Amid lots of seemingly random gibberish, the substring 
"aleym" ("Elohim" transliterated) appears once, as does the substring "adm" 
("Adam" transliterated).

Considering the letter frequencies and the size of the sample, it's something
of a surprise, but I'm not sure just how unlikely it is.  Are the odds 
astronomical?  Someone with a mathematical bent may care to take a crack at 
computing them.

If anyone else cares to try some more, I'd be glad to share my program.
Just send me a Mail message.

L'Shanah Tova!

David Ellis -- Secure Systems Group -- LTN2-2/C08 -- DTN 226-6784 

(1)brajyx bra aleym; ax ejmym wax earc.
(2)wearc, eyxe xew wbew, whjk ul-pny xewm; wrwh aleym, mrhpx ul-pny emym.
(3)wyamr aleym yey awr; wyey-awr.
(4)wyra aleym ax-eawr ky-twb; wybdl aleym, byn eawr wbyn ehjk.
(5)wiqra aleym lawr ywm, wlhjk qra lyle; wyey-urb wyey-bqr ywm ahd.
(6)wyamr aleym, yey rqyu bxwk emym; wyey mbdyl, byn mym lmym.
(7)wyuj akeym ax-erqyu, wybdl, byn emym ajr mxhx lrqyu, wbyn emym, 
ajr mul lrqyu; wyey-kn.
(8)wyqra aleym lrqyu jmym; wyey-urb wyey-bqr ywm jny.
(9)wyamr aleym, yqww emym mxhx ejmym al-mqwm ahd, wxrae eybje; wyey-kn.
(10)wyqra aleym lybje arc, wlmqwe emym qra ymym; wyra aleym ky-twb.
(11)wyamr aleym, xdja earc dja, ujb mzryu zru, uc pry, uje pry lmynw,
ajr zruw-bw ul-earc; wyey-kn.
(12)wxwca earc dja, ujb mzryu zru lmynew, wuc uje-pry, ajr zruw-bw lnynew;
wyra aleym ky-twb.
(13)wyey-urb wyey-bqr ywm jlyjy.
(14)wyamr aleym, yey marx brqyu ejmym, lebdyl, byn eywm wbyn elyle; 
weyw laxx wlmwudym, wlymym wjnym.
(15)weyw lmawrx brqyu ejmym, leayr ul-earc; wyey-kn.
(16)wyuj aleym, ax-jny emarx egdlym; ax-emawr egdl lmmjlx eywm, 
wax-emawr eqtn lmmjlt elyle, wax ekwkbym.
(17)wyxn axm, aleym brqyu ejmym; leayr ul-earc.
(18)wlmjl bywm wblyle, wlebdyl, byn eawr wbyn ehjk; wyra aleym ky-twb.
(19)wyey-urb wyey-bqr ywm rbyuy.
(20)wyamr aleym, yjrcw emym, jrc npj hye; wuwp yuwpp ul-earc, ul-pny rqyu ejmym.
(21)wybra aleym, ax-exnynm egdlym; wax kl-npj ehye ermjx, ajr jrcw emym lmynem,
wax kl-uwp knp lmynew, wyra aleym ky-twb.
(22)wybrk axm, aleym lamr; prw wrbw, wmlaw ax-emym bymym, weuwp yrb barc.
(23)wyey-urb wyey-bqr ywm hmyjy.
(24)wyamr aleym, xwca earc npj hye lmyne, beme wrmj whyxw-arc lmyne; wyey-kn.
(25)wyuj aleym ax-hyx earc lmyne, wax-ebeme lmyne, wax kl-rmj eadme lmynew;
wyra aleym ky-twb.
(26)wyamr aleym, nuje adm bclmnw kdmwxnw; wyrdw bdgx eym wbuwp ejmym, 
ubbeme wbkl-earc, wbkl-ermj ermj ul-earc.
(27)wybra aleym ax-eadm bclmw, bclm aleym bra axw; zkr wnqbe bra axm.
(28)wybrk axm aleym, wyamr lem aleym, prw wrbw wmlaw ax-earc wkbje; wrdw,
bdgx eym wbuwp ejmym, wbkl-hye ermjx ul-earc.
(29)wyamr aleym, ene nxxy lkm ax-kl-ujb zru zru, ajr ul-pny kl-earc, 
wax-kl-euc ajr-bw pry-uc zru zru; lkm yeye lakle.
(30)wlkl-hyx earc, ulkl-uwp ejmym wlkl rwmj ul-earc, ajr-bw npj hye,
ax-kl-yrq ujb lakle; wyey-kn.
(31)wyra aleym ax-kl-ajr uje, wene-twb mad; wyey-urb wyey-bqr ywm ejjy.
(1)wyklw ejmym wearc wkl-cbam.
(2)wykl aleym bywm ejbyuy, mlakxw ajr uje; wyjbx bywm ejbyuy, 
mkl-mlakxw ajr uje.
(3)wybrk aleym ax-ywm ejbyuy, wyqdj axw; ky bw jbx mkl mlakxw, 
ajr-bra aleym lujwx.

bryyyeyremdmlrxelyjaecamyyjajmtyjwuywrnnerpmynleyxblbaewynnzaakjybxmml
rcxmrymbyylyeyhwmtbjauljulnynmemlbrmpapeywyyeemaanbecxyrexyrrrlewawlea
awewamlwrmbmywxyqwmrrjeleeyryjlbbybypajmmwrjlwydmwealmmdexkuccewmmaajk
jewyabayqlyammeewbzzceyyjwmuelyrynwjulewkrbymynmrwmrmwpwrylzuaweewjkbx
yamalyweymnjljjyewrrdpmjmewlmxlqweyrlehaybbwyeeeayecayrbmlerljynjyrxyw
xrwmenryuyerrnmkeyyujrkyyyeeaeeymheceyyxtwaynywllrwwlbwdjkaukreejkuwua
bcrryeybbmmmqyynmauwayywmwyarywuwjywamekwwraekamedbyerwgxmrllbytyljayj
rewamawqxwyuywmwymzbuatyllwrxwaebkberaelbmcmbnxyywkbykrxuackuwkwwaejwr
ayhlawmrwymluyaymrrwjjwaealcemxjlwqmcxruwlwrewenmblrmabelxwmwnnbylwryb
axaexrwykualjalqqauubrbmbxmwgwemyyryuemwyayamybendeabxwyekayppwmkeyuqr
lelyewlwejjrmmmrrlulmzwrdxaydakylrymlxjpbweleuewugaarmwmalxeejyalyjjda
exemabhmmarqyrqaaecezryaywwelxwmeawjpnxkrayewjmwjxrlaamwrukyjhrdwmbeja
yeyywyjaykmymawayyparuelllryyeklwamrnyankxuyraeyeeceallbcjlemyawebxwal
mwmernkhmexuwlmlmmrrywyebmxkmmbellrcynjpaermmllraywyxeauwbelyeayjybyxe
awmykeqdwyhwyeaeyxycubuyywbnaayaeebnrmrlxmbxjemadmbmwywwyzuamalemwybwy
xbrayhrwymxyeyhymduwzwrmnurwxwmybyypqejmmywwwyyamwkazmaparckwxeyymwrkm
eehwtjayealeymdmwjjyrlbyedqyerwrdmujygryamychmnlbblxkwxemuallkyumemkyl
jwprwklayxryuywlyaeeunweyyyumeyuykyhudcnlbeayaeecueeryejrzjeklmrwjeabu
mwxwbwymmeqkrqxyrepylyyywmujaqxllywyelweeyyexxwylwrawaamarrwlyabebjlwj
yhuywilrbrynbwrbaarkmnemmweawtnebtyejyewymbawhammpmdnmrylublrrxwaybejw
mjleyqeadquwwwajarynyeyawljlrnaaywawmmmwmyqrayxknejmqrcmeawkwqkyruyybx
wkpybrwlyywyyeeelclwnwbrbymeelxrnbmuywyylmrcrxkywjebblwwyjplmulecyumx
aunadayelubqemeaedmxewqxymyygmmcewrwmamrawynceltkmrceekbmrrhjjaywmyam
xlywlaeybwyryyyryjywwyrbnymmdmawayapwxlamewplarwdymlbmbkeuyyubjbklmxk
eperalymyynabmbcmancwryremlaljllwelyykmarumjmrmbmmjmrajlnluxllrqlakyl
anmwleuynbeaqmjwkuwauawqlwexllemryeublylpwhhycjwwuuwalehepceeaurcklwm

    David,
    
    Thanx for all the effort.  Could you easily extract it by 50th
    character?
    
    

    Stupid question: are you supposed to count vowel points, or not?
    
    Dick
    

    There are no vowels, unless you count the "silent letters", yod
    and the like.  The things you see in modern prayerbooks (diacriticals)
    aren't in the original texts.
    
    What was not clear to me was whether or not spaces counted, and
    what position (26th letter? some other letter?) you start on.  Maybe
    we can play around with the transliterated text.
    
    MANY THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORT!
        fred

    Last night, after reading this weeks parsha, I took about two
    minutes and counted the characters in Bereshit to see if I could
    find the patern. Sure enough I found "TORAH" spelled 50 characters
    apart. It will be a little dificult to explain. I can read Hebrew.
    However, it's been so long since I went to Hebrew school that I
    can't remember the names of the letters. I'll use the English
    character that corresponds to the sound of the Hebrew character.
    
    Start with the last character of the first word of the torah,
    bereshit. Also keep in mind that the actual scroll has no vowls. 
    
    	char.
    	number	sound	word
    
    	1	T	bereshit
    	50	O	s'hom
    	100	R	vayar
    	150	H	el-him
    
    
    
    

I know there's one letter that does not appear in the first chapter of Bereshit.
I think it's the letter Samech (Hebrew S), but I'm not sure. 

Nitsan

    Pretty neat stuff isn't it.
    Actually before we go proving or disproving this ourselves
    I would like to find out exactly what has been done.  I asked my
    rabbi if he was aware of this (he's extremely active in political
    and world events) and he had heard of it.  I haven't been able to
    ask about the exact test they were doing.  Personally this brings
    the question to mind of the numerous place in Hebrew Chumashim 
    (bibles) were a word is missing a letter and there is a little
    footnote bringing you to the bottom of the page where the word is
    spelled properly.  It isn't found often but you do see it.  I think
    the references to the real pronunciation is found in either midrash
    or mishnah.
    Before people say that "oh that's just a typo" remember that when
    we read from the Torah on Shabbat the reader MUST read it exactly
    the right way or he must repeat the word.  So it seems that if these
    words were important enough to document the proper reading, why
    was the spelling done deliberately off, to keep the integrity of
    a pattern?
    
    Bruce