Conference taveng::bagels

    According to the 1984 Jewish Directory and Almanac, the top 20 cities
    in the USA and Canada are;
    
    New York City	1,734,800
    Los Angeles		500,870
    Philadelphia	295,000
    Miami		253,340
    Chicago		253,000
    Boston		170,000
    Washington, D.C.	160,000
    Toronto		115,000
    Metro New Jersey	 95,000
    Baltimore		 92,000
    Montreal		 90,000
    Fort Lauderdale	 80,000
    San Francisco	 75,000
    Cleveland		 70,000
    Detroit		 70,000
    Bergen County NJ	 60,000
    South Broward, FL	 55,000
    St. Louis		 53,500
    Pittsburgh		 50,000
    Orange County, CA	 50,000
    
    
    Total US		5,920,890
    Total Canada	  305,000

    
    The Book lists all cities with Jewish populations over 1,00 people.
    There are 162 listed locations. Anyone wishing a copy of the complete
    list can contact me.
    
    Jack

    .0:
    
    Uh, would it be unreasonable to ask what the context was of the
    quote in .0? That is, what did the speaker have in mind doing that
    would upset the "Jewish lobby"?
    
    Dick
    

.2>    Uh, would it be unreasonable to ask what the context was of the
.2>    quote in .0? That is, what did the speaker have in mind doing that
.2>    would upset the "Jewish lobby"?

    	The following is what started it, edited for brevity.  The
    discussion had veered onto the tack of somebody suggesting that
    the U.S. stop supporting Israel.  I think the result was supposed
    to be that the problems in the Middle East would go away.
    
|                 <<< 2B::NOTES1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SOAPBOX.NOTE;1 >>>
|                               -< The New SOAPBOX >-
| ==============================================================================
| Note 142.20                   Kill 'em all...                         20 of 42
| COVERT::COVERT "John Covert"                       23 lines   2-SEP-1986 11:42
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 
|     ...
|     
| 	2. How do we do it without the political backlash from the
| 	   Jewish lobby?  Don't forget, although certainly not all
| 	   of them support the current government of Israel, there
| 	   are a huge number of Jews in this country.  Certainly
| 	   many more than in Israel, where there are about 3.2 million.
| 
| 	   It's certainly an exaggeration that there are more than that
| 	   in Miami, not an exaggeration that there are more than 3.2 M
| 	   in the state of New York, and close to that in California.
| 
| 	   The Jewish lobby is strong and influential.  Many Jews in
| 	   America don't see the situation as purely black and white,
| 	   but most of them would not vote for politicians who would
| 	   favor turning our back on the Middle East.
| 
| /john
    
	Actually, this is the second version of the reply.  The first
    asserted that it was no exaggeration that there were more Jews in
    *each* of the three states than in Israel.  It is obvious from the
    statistics that this is an exaggeration.  I asked John to tone it
    down, and this was as far as he would go.
    
    	I think we're up against the usual double standard.  Somehow,
    Jews are not supposed to be interested in the welfare of their
    homeland.  (Are Catholics supposed to similarly ignore the Vatican,
    or Moslems Mecca?)  Also, somehow, Jews who support Israel are assumed
    to support whatever mistakes the current government makes.  (I reserve
    the right to support the U.S. government regardless of the scum
    in the Oval Office.)
    
    	I know, all I'll get for banging my head against this stone
    wall is a headache.  But you've got to keep fighting back, or the
    Big Lie technique will overwhelm you.
    
    			David

Before everyone jumps all over the original note's writer, do remember
that it was written in SOAPBOX, where outrageousness is the rule, and
exaggeration and even absurdity are not uncommon.

Actually, it's worse than that, but then even _describing_ the 'box
here would be in questionable taste.

Well, I'm glad to see no one here decided to jump all over me, except for
David Ofsevit.

My own comments on what I wrote are that:

	1. I was replying to someone who claimed that the way to end world
	   terrorism is for the U.S. to change its policy in the Middle
	   East.  I was pointing out one (and only one) of the reasons that
	   a change of policy will be difficult.  The exact numbers are not
	   important; anyone who denies that the "Jewish Lobby" is strong
	   is probably wrong!

	2. The misinformation about concentration of Jewish population seems
	   to be widespread, even present in this file, as the following
	   reply shows:
	   =====================================================================
	   Note 31.1           Largest Concentrations of Jews?            1 of 9
	   OBIWAN::SCHORR                             6 lines  28-OCT-1985 11:00
	   ---------------------------------------------------------------------

	   METRO NY HAS THE LARGEST CONCENTRATION OF JEWS 

	   MORE THAN ISRAEL

	   THE AREA WITH THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF JEWS IS MIAMI


>Somehow, Jews are not supposed to be interested in the welfare of their
>homeland.

I didn't say or even imply that.  I just explained the reality that U.S.
policy favors the position of a strong lobby.  When the interests of the U.S.
and the State of Israel coincide (or the lobbyist believes they do) then the
lobbyist is supporting the interests of both.  I do not attempt to show that
the interests of the State of Israel are counter to those of the U.S.; that
was the argument of the person who claimed that the U.S. is the target of
violence because of its Middle East policy.

>(Are Catholics supposed to similarly ignore the Vatican, or Moslems Mecca?)

American Catholics or Moslems, just as American Jews, should not be supporting
the interests of a foreign government where those interests are contrary to the
interests of the U.S.  (No, I am not stating that I think anyone is doing so!)

David, you are reading things into what I wrote that I did not say.

/john

    
Re .5  I'll jump on you since you jumped on me.    
    >================================================================================
>Note 186.5     Needed:  Up-to-date Jewish Population Statistics           5 of 5
>COVERT::COVERT "John Covert"                         47 lines  20-OCT-1986 12:51
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Well, I'm glad to see no one here decided to jump all over me, except for
>David Ofsevit.
>
>My own comments on what I wrote are that:
>
>	2. The misinformation about concentration of Jewish population seems
>	   to be widespread, even present in this file, as the following
>	   reply shows:
>	   =====================================================================
>	   Note 31.1           Largest Concentrations of Jews?            1 of 9
>	   OBIWAN::SCHORR                             6 lines  28-OCT-1985 11:00
>	   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>	   METRO NY HAS THE LARGEST CONCENTRATION OF JEWS 
>
>	   MORE THAN ISRAEL
>
>	   THE AREA WITH THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF JEWS IS MIAMI
>
>

You may not like the data but it still true.  Are you disputing my data?

The data come Haddash magazine which I believe to be a credible source.

What do you dispute?

    re .6
    
    	It sounds like some confusion of what the meaningful statistic
    is, along with some outright wrong numbers.
    
    	In terms of absolute numbers:
    
    Israel		3.2M
    Greater NY/NJ	2M
    Southern Calif.	.5M
    South Florida	.3M
    
    	In terms of percentages:  (These are very rough)
    
    Israel		85-90%
    Greater NY/NJ	15%
    Southern Calif.	5%
    South Florida	10-15% (?)
    
    	So, perhaps South Florida may have the highest percentage of
    Jews of any major area in the US.  But no area comes close to Israel
    in absolute numbers or (obviously) percentage.
    
    	What I want to know is, what purpose does it serve to bring
    up these numbers?  What are you trying to prove?  At least John
    Covert is forthright about his (perhaps mistaken) belief in the
    power of the "Jewish lobby."
    
    			David

re .6 Re .5  I'll jump on you since you jumped on me.    

Whoa.  I'm not jumping on you.  I was pointing out to those who told me
I was wrong about the concentration of Jews in Miami and New York that the
mis-[according to David]-information was widespread.  Jump on David, not me.

Your statement (which I thought was true until David disputed it) is that

>	   METRO NY HAS THE LARGEST CONCENTRATION OF JEWS 
>
>	   MORE THAN ISRAEL

David disputes that, both in terms of absolute numbers and percentage.  What
numbers does Haddash magazine use?  Could you and I be right?

My intention was, as David pointed out, to help show the existence of a
strong Jewish lobby, which would probably want the U.S. to remain a strong
player in the Middle East, and to show that what the U.S. is doing there is
not Reagan's policy alone, but the will of a strong political element in our
population.  This was in face of a European claim that terrorism in the
Middle East was the fault of U.S. policy.

/john

Re:  < Note 186.5 by COVERT::COVERT "John Covert" >

	 | I was replying to someone who claimed that the way to end world
	 | terrorism is for the U.S. to change its policy in the Middle
	 | East.  I was pointing out one (and only one) of the reasons that
	 | a change of policy will be difficult.  The exact numbers are not
	 | important; anyone who denies that the "Jewish Lobby" is strong
	 | is probably wrong!

There's something very disturbing in this statement.  Whether or not it's
the principal message intended, I read between the lines the implication that
the so-called Jewish Lobby is standing in the way of American efforts to end 
world terrorism.

Yes, American Jews are supportive of Israel.  Yes, American Jews as a whole
are politically active and outspoken.  But taking the next step and implying
that the "Jewish Lobby" is opposing the best interests of the United States
crosses the boundary into "Blame-the-Jews" territory.  

As an American Jew, I will not stand for anybody questioning my loyalty or 
the loyalty of my fellow Jews.  The phrase "Jewish Lobby" has been used as a 
code word in numerous accusations of Jewish disloyalty.  While I am sure that
there was no such intent in the context quoted above, it's just a short stone's
throw away from our windows.

I leave myself open to the charge of being "over-sensitive".  But history has
taught the Jews very painful lessons about the consequences of dropping our
vigilance.

I'm not out to "jump on" John Covert.  I'm just using his comment as an
example to point out why some Jews can be offended by seemingly neutral 
statements.

By the way, there is a real Jewish Lobby in the United States.  It's known
as AIPAC (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and has a staff 
consisting of a grand total of nine lobbyists.  I met one of them, and he
supports American interests just as much as anybody reading this note.

David Ellis -- Secure Systems Group -- LTN2-2/C08 -- DTN 226-6784 

	Please lighten up here, and avoid tangents.

	

I recently read an article in the Canadian Jewish News by Rabbi Gunther Plaut
who estimates the current *world* Jewish population at 13,000,000 with
the top countries being Israel, Soviet Union, USA.  And France is now in
4th place (formerly was U.K) if I recollect the article correctly.  Other
than this, the article gave no other statistics.

Does anyone have a breakdown by country and if possible an update
on the figures in .1?

Allen

First of all, there is no precise measure of the Jewish population in most of
the countries where it is largest.  (Israel is the only exception that I know
of.)  Estimates vary for a number of reasons, including how one chooses to
define Jews.

Rabbi Plaut's estimate of 13,000,000 probably is correct to within a couple of
million, no matter which of the usual definitions is used.  I believe that the
countries with the largest Jewish populations currently are, in order:
	1. USA
	2. Israel
	3. Soviet Union
	4. France
	5. UK

Israel may pass the US within the next few decades, and the Soviet Union may
drop lower on the scale -- assuming that it continues to exist as a country for
long enough.

    Try United Synagogue of America in New York, 212-533-7800,
    which produces a pocket calendar with approximate Jewish
    populations of the major cities around the world, for the source of
    their statistics.
    
    janet
       

All the statistics seem to come from the same source -- one of the major
Jewish organizations, possibly the American Jewish Congress.  The numbers
seem to be pretty much bogus.  If we can't agree on "who is a Jew," how
can we come up with reasonable numbers?