Conference taveng::bagels

    I've never heard of that custom.  Your friend may have  confused
    the custom of not giving BABY GIFTS before the birth of a child
    and the giving of any gifts before a major event.
    
    I know that in our community it is common to have wedding showers
    and bridal luncheons (all accompanied by gifts) before the wedding. 
                                 
    BTW- Your friend is correct about wedding gifts being appropriate
    up to a year after the event---at least according to Emily Post.
    But my Mother would look askance and say "pahst nish". (:^O)
    
    --Av
    
    

    
    I agree with .1, on a personal note I would have preferred to get
    my gifts before the wedding so I could have sent out my 'Thank You'
    cards earlier.  To me thats the worst part of a simcha.
    
    PS to Mr Frydman,  is Av short for Avi, Avraham, Avner, Avimelech
    et al?  
    Just so I know to whom I am speaking.
    
    Thanks,
    Bruce Cohen
    

    Well, Joe's wedding was last Sunday (I have blisters from all the
    dancing!), and we all brought our gifts to the ceremony.  I don't
    know how they got them home from there, though; the party was still
    rolling when we left.  By the time everyone showed up, there was
    a whole big table piled high with gifts!  I must say it looked festive,
    but I wouldn't have wanted to haul them all home at the end of the
    evening.  Anyhow, Joe and his bride didn't go "home" (to the next
    house they just bought in Natick), they went to a hotel, and left
    the next day on their honeymoon.

I have heard of the breaking of a wine glass being incorporated into 
non-Jewish wedding ceremonies.  My fiancee is interested in this (we are 
not Jewish), but I have come upon more than one interpretation of what 
exactly the symbolism is supposed to be.  Can anyone explain, please?

- Paul Dickson

I got married last August, and we did the wine glass bit, and I only
vaguely remember the rabbi's explanation, so I'll let someone else
explain.  I think it is supposed to represent the destruction by
enemies of the jewish temple, but that doesn't quite make sense
because why celebrate THAT at a wedding ?

An interesting anecdote though:  The rabbi was Albert Ginsburgh from
Newton.  He supplied the "glass" wrapped in a hanky.  But he secretly
told us it was a LIGHT BULB!  It makes a better sound when smashed,
he said.

/Eric

Yes the glass is smashed to COMMEMORATE (not 'celebrate', Eric) the
destruction of the temple.  The idea  is along th lines of the verse from
the psalms (?137? I'm not good at numbers) "If I forget thee O Jerusalem
may my right hand forget its cunning.  May my tongue cleave to my palate
if I do not remember, if I do not elevate [thoughts of] Jerusalem 
about even my chiefest joys."   No joy chiefer than a wedding, right?
So we remind ourselves of our sorrow at Jerusalem's destruction even
in the midst of our greatest joy, by breaking a glass. 

This, at any rate, is the commonly heard explanation.  
Are there any others? Does anyone know how far back the custom goes?  
Is it done by Yemenite Jews, for instance?

Excerpt from _The Book of Modern Jewish Etiquette_, by Helen Latner:

    The practice of some caterers, who use a flashbulb in place 
    of a glass because it makes a very loud noise when broken, 
    is deplorably vulgur and should be avoided. (p. 272)

    Sam

    Hi Sam...
    
    Does the book suggest why the practice is vulgar?
    
    The sound of the breaking item should serve as the reminder
    and therefore the louder (and hence more striking) the sound
    the better.

    -- Rich

I would guess that the reason the book says it's vulgar is that
if glasses have been used for two thousand years, and then some
schlemiel uses a light bulb, it's a vulgar break with tradition !

And we know about judaism and traditions, right ?  Traditiooooon, TRADITION!

Anyone know actually how long the glass-breaking has been around ?

/Eric

    re .4 - .9 
 
        
       It seems that breaking a glass at weddings is a very old custom.

       In Tractate Brachot of the Talmud Bavli at the bottom of page 30b
    and the top of page 31a the following appears (my translation):

       Mar, the son of Ravina, made a wedding feast for his son, and saw
       that the scholars (guests JW) were in very high spirits. He brought
       a precious cup, worth 400 zuzim, and broke it before them and they
       became sad. Rav Ashi made a wedding feast for his son, and saw that 
       the scholars were in very high spirits. He brought a cup of white 
       glass (very precious JW) and broke it before them and they became
       sad.

       Tosafot say there: "He brought a cup of white glass" - from here 
       it became customary to break glass at a wedding.

       Mar lived at the beginning of 4th century CE, and Rav Ashi at the 
    end of the same century.      

       The Tosafot were commentators who lived mainly in France and 
    Germany from 12th to 14th centuries CE.

       The message from all this seems to be that when you get
    happy don't get too carried away. Some commentators say one should
    remember the destruction of the Temple, whilst others simply say that
    over-hilarity can lead to transgression.

       Another explanation for breaking glass at a wedding is to ward
    off evil spirits.

       A Yemenite friend told me this morning in Shul, that they do it now 
    also "because everyone else does", but as far as he knew it was not  
    originally a custom of theirs.
 
       Note that Tosafot specifically say "z'chuchit" - glass, so may be
    a light bulb is OK too - but if you want to do it the way they used
    to do it, maybe you should take your mother's finest crystal cup.

       Whatever it is - MAZAL TOV. 
 
    Jonathan Wreschner

    Another interpretation is that it is irrevocable and permanent,
    and likewise may the marriage last for eternity.
    

    Re. 11:
    
    Is that interpretation documented in Rabbinic literature or is it
    your own?
    
    I cannot agree with it for several reasons:
    
    1. As much as we wish a couple that their marriage be eternal, it
       is by no means irrevocal. The Torah specifically allows divorce.
    
    2. Even were 1. not true, I don't feel that it would be appropriate
       to symbolize permanency and eternity by an act of destruction.
       
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cb.

    RE. 10, .11
    
    Good Point.
    
    I got that interpretation from a book called "The Jewish Catalog".
    

    Does the Jewish Catalouge quote a source?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cb.

    I don't know about *you*, but Paul and I really DID use a glass
    (though several of our friends did use light bulbs - which really
    do make more noise, if noise is what you are after).  We went to
    a fancy wedding-goods place and bought the very *last* crystal goblet
    in a particular pattern, so it wasn't especially expensive.  One
    good reason why people use light bulbs might be that unless you
    really do use a crystal glass, it may be hard to get it to shatter
    by stomping on it - much harder than having a cheap glass shatter
    if you drop it!

$.02

Part of the point of using a glass rather than a light bulb is that you
use something of some value (not extreme).  Who would get sad about the
breaking of a light bulb?  But a perfectly good crystal glass...

L'hit,
Gavriel

    I will be married (conservative) next June.  Can someone
    please tell me what the Wife circling the groom around
    the Chuppah is supposed to symbolize. 

    Also, can someone tell me of traditional,symbolic, 
    actions that would be nice to add to a 'standard'
    wedding ceremony.

    The Rabbi who will be officiating the wedding will
    be at my parent's house next Sabbath.  That will probably
    be the last time I will see him before the week before the
    wedding.  He will be going back to Israel.

    Thanks,
    Amy

    I've heard  two  reasons for the bride circling the groom (also an
    argument  about  whether  she  goes  around 3 or 7 times, but I'll
    leave  that  one  out.) The claimed origin is pagan, and has to do
    with weaving a spell to protect her husband. The Jewish reason has
    to do with constructing a wall around the space under the chuppah,
    so  that  it  will  be  a  private  space,  which  is required for
    marriage.

--David

HI.. I looked up the bride circling the groom in 
Anita Diamant's book "The New Jewish Wedding" what
she said was very nice.

A small part of the write-up follows.
   
	There are many explanations for the practice.
	Circling is a magical means of protecting. By 
  	walking around the groom the bride creates an
	invisible wall to protect him from evil spirits,
	from the glances of other woman, and the temptation
	of the world.  The bride's circle may also be seen
	as a way of binding the groom to her.  Her circuits
	symbolically create a new family circle, demonstrating
	that her primary allegiance has shifted from her parents
	to her husband and that her husband is now bound to her
	more intimately than to his parents"

some information about Kabalistic interpretations...

	Some women have reintroduced the brides's circling,
	seeing it not as a token of subservience but as a
	powerful act of definition: she creates the space the
	couple will share.

some information about double circle ceremonies :)

Always interesting to learn,
Amy

I will be getting married next summer and am curious what kinds of 
topics/customs/traditions/requirements the Rabbi will talk to us about 
prior to the ceremony.  This will be an interfaith marriage.  Thanks for 
any input.

Matt

With a name like "Cohen", I assume that you are the Jewish partner and that
the bride-to-be is non-Jewish. In the Jewish wedding service there is a
blessing that you will live according to the law of Moses and of Israel.
This is patently impossible in the case of an inter-faith marriage. That is
why very few rabbis will perform mixed marriages.

If Judaism means something to you then you have to live with the fact that
your children won't be Jewish unless your bride-to-be converts. I know many
married couples where one partner was not born Jewish. The only ones where
the children maintain a Jewish identity are where either the wife was born
Jewish or converted. I know of one family, by exception, where the wife AND
the children converted after the unfortunate death of the husband. I have
non-Jewish first cousins. My uncle always hoped one of his daughters would
choose to become Jewish, but it never happened.

It seems to me you shouldn't wait until your wedding day to talk to a rabbi.
Talk to one or several right away. Bring you fiance along. When you figure
out what's important to you, then you and your partner will know what to do.

I'm not trying to be negative; I am just pointing out the difficulties
as I see them.

Dave

    Many people view mixed marriage as impossible.  My wife is studying for
    conversion and has done so freely.  She has always, since I have know
    her been interested in the Jewish faith.  If I had made conversion
    before marriage a requirement she would not have agreed.  She felt that
    this kind of conversion whether halachic or not woudl always be viewed
    with suspicion.  She also felt that having that as an ultimatum would
    have taken away free choice for her.  We discussedd the mater of
    children weel before speaking with a rabbi, and we both understood that
    children were not a possibility unless she went through with conversion
    and we were remnarried afterwards.
    
    Any decision you make is ultimately your own, but do not ignore issues
    of family and children.  They willcome up sooner or later and can cause
    divorce and hard feelings.
    
    I've been there,
    
    MarkL

    Mark has a good point about children.
    
    I recently met a man, let's call him Bob.  Bob lives in NH, btw.  He
    married a gentile and they  had 2 children.  Their marriage fell apart,
    for reasons partly due to the mixed mariage, and his ex moved far
    upstate.  Bob only has the children alternate weekends and spends much
    of that time driving back and forth.
    
    Now he wants to give the children a Jewish education.  It is well-nigh
    impossible.  He cannot enroll them in a weekly religious school, much
    less give them regular Hebrew lessons.  So he is giving them a Jewish
    identity in little bits as he can.  Needless to say, the prospects are
    not bright for raising these children as Jews.
    
    Bob is not the only man I know in such a bind.  Once you are married
    and the children are born, it is too late to go back and do it
    differently, especially if the marriage doesn't work out.  Children
    usually take their mother's religious identity.  Given how often
    divorcing mothers get custody, you could well be left out in the cold. 
    For that matter, your children would most likely take your fiancee's
    religion even if you stay happily married, unless you agree upfront to
    raise them as Jews.
    
    Now, I'm not saying that if you marry a Jew everything will be peaches
    and cream.  I married a Jew and we are now divorcing with much pain on
    both sides.   But one not-so-minor consolation is that we agree about
    the Jewish education and upbringing of our daughter.  We hold strong
    convictions in the matter and even remain in the same synagogue so that
    together we can share this with her.
    
    I hope you have thought through these issues.
    
    Laura

re .23:

I must say that I feel sorry for "Bob's" children.  It must be difficult enough
growing up in a single-parent home, a situation over which they have no
control.  But on top of that, their father (whom they see only on alternate
weekends) is trying to "give" them an "identity" that is not properly theirs.
Their mother is not Jewish, and therefore most Jews will not recognize them as
such.  My opinion is that the children would be best off without Bob's attempts
to impose a "Jewish identity" on them.

As for Bob, he is an adult in a situation that he willingly brought on himself.
He knew (or should have known) that by marrying a non-Jew, he would have
non-Jewish children.  Now he's refusing to accept the consequences of his
decision, consequences which probably would be the same regardless of the
breakup.  It's unfortunate that his children have to bear the burden of this
refusal.